I know he is permanently part feral, but does Tarrin have any morals? Threatening sages is just part of being a powerful character (I'm sure everyone has wanted to do that once), but now he is STEALING CREATURE'S SOULS and using them to power a new form of magikal stuff. This is the equivilent of a hero going around and stealing police officer's soul and using them as fuel! I realize its "for the greater good", but seriously, he is supposed to be a protagonist.
I kind of miss the moral questions and thoughts in "Questing Game" and "Honor and Blood", where Tarrin cared about the "NPC's" (yes I actually used that term referring to a story).
Any thoughts?
Morals
-
Lochar
- Leaders of the Off-Topic
- Posts: 1483
- Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2003 4:18 pm
- Location: The center of American corruption.
- Contact:
Re: Morals
Technically, Tarrin's ferality is only as much as he lets it be. According to our resident Cat Lord, he no longer has the Song of the Cat, which means he doesn't have any were instincts minus those he has embraced.
As for the idea of stealing souls, Tarrin is not truly good or truly evil. He is himself. Tarrin is a flawed hero, but that's what makes him interesting. Besides, his use of those souls comes at a cost to himself, and I believe that once all is said and done he will at least relinquish the souls of the Deva back to their brothers.
Not to mention the fact that he IS an Entropic, thus is truly against both demon and deva alike. If they knew that about Tarrin for a fact, they'd probably send a leigon of Solar against him.
As for the idea of stealing souls, Tarrin is not truly good or truly evil. He is himself. Tarrin is a flawed hero, but that's what makes him interesting. Besides, his use of those souls comes at a cost to himself, and I believe that once all is said and done he will at least relinquish the souls of the Deva back to their brothers.
Not to mention the fact that he IS an Entropic, thus is truly against both demon and deva alike. If they knew that about Tarrin for a fact, they'd probably send a leigon of Solar against him.
Ignorance is bliss, knowledge is power. Are the powerful very unhappy?
Support my brother.
http://www.justiceformichael.com
Support my brother.
http://www.justiceformichael.com
Re: Morals
BTW Welcome DuQuesne to the forums.
Is your nick from the E.E. Doc Smith stories of the Skylark of Space and other pulp fiction?
J-Man5
Is your nick from the E.E. Doc Smith stories of the Skylark of Space and other pulp fiction?
J-Man5
Re: Morals
???
The name is from a french fort in the French and Indian War (don't ask)
The name is from a french fort in the French and Indian War (don't ask)
Re: Morals
Actually remember a bit about that from History studies in school many many years ago. In my family history/ancestry I am related to the pirate john Lafete who if I remember correctly was a privateer/pirate for the French.
J-Man5
J-Man5
Re: Morals
DuQuesne, the one thing that's been consistent throughout the books is that Tarrin has never had a very firm grasp on the concept of morality...the way you would define it.
Actually, Tarrin adheres to a very strict code of conduct. What is different here is that his concept of good and evil, right and wrong, proper and improper, is vastly different from what most others see it. And it's probably what makes him so interesting to me.
The biggest aspect of that personality has been and probably always will be, "the end justifies the means."
Does Tarrin have morals? You bet. For instance, he'd never knowingly harm a child. He wouldn't harm a member of his family. He never breaks his word. He does not lie. He never uses his magic without good reason. He honors and obeys his parents and superiors. He is caring, loving, attentive, and compassionate to his friends and family.
But, on the other hand, does he see something immoral about stealing souls? Not really. He certainly doesn't like doing it, and would have found a different way if there was one, but there wasn't. And since it was his only course of action, it immediately becomes an acceptable course of action in his mind. To him, it is a means to an end, and that end is so important that it warrants this kind of extreme action. He wouldn't be doing it if he saw any other way, but in his mind, the objective makes what he is doing acceptable TO HIM.
He must be willing to make the choices that must be made.
Actually, the incident with the sages is a good example of both his morality and his lack of it. He roared into the sage's compound and destroyed it, killed sages, because in his mind they had wronged him, and violence is Tarrin's immediate response to such betrayal. But he also didn't outright kill the lead sage, nor his secretary. He doled out what he saw as just punishment against the sage, and permitted the secretary to live when she earned that right, in his eyes.
Tarrin is only a wanton destroyer when in a rage. Everything else he does, he does it because he has a specific reason for it.
And, as you and others have seen, his duality of mind has evolved simply beyond him being a Were-cat. It is now a fundamental aspect of his basic personality. All those years as a Were-cat has stamped that mode of thinking into him, even without the Cat in his mind.
This fundamental dichotomy, the two sides of him, human and Cat, hero and villain, good and evil, has been a cornerstone of the story for a long time. It makes him what he is, and he wouldn't be half as interesting without it.
Tarrin isn't your usual protagonist DuQuesne. He'd be classified by a literature major as a "dark hero." He is equal measure of hero and villain, a man working towards a noble end, but commiting evil in the course of it. At times in the books, he actually was the valiant crusader, but at other times, he was just as sinister and evil as the bad guys he was fighting against.
It is what he is, and his concept of morality and his outlook on life reflect this duality.
Actually, Tarrin adheres to a very strict code of conduct. What is different here is that his concept of good and evil, right and wrong, proper and improper, is vastly different from what most others see it. And it's probably what makes him so interesting to me.
The biggest aspect of that personality has been and probably always will be, "the end justifies the means."
Does Tarrin have morals? You bet. For instance, he'd never knowingly harm a child. He wouldn't harm a member of his family. He never breaks his word. He does not lie. He never uses his magic without good reason. He honors and obeys his parents and superiors. He is caring, loving, attentive, and compassionate to his friends and family.
But, on the other hand, does he see something immoral about stealing souls? Not really. He certainly doesn't like doing it, and would have found a different way if there was one, but there wasn't. And since it was his only course of action, it immediately becomes an acceptable course of action in his mind. To him, it is a means to an end, and that end is so important that it warrants this kind of extreme action. He wouldn't be doing it if he saw any other way, but in his mind, the objective makes what he is doing acceptable TO HIM.
He must be willing to make the choices that must be made.
Actually, the incident with the sages is a good example of both his morality and his lack of it. He roared into the sage's compound and destroyed it, killed sages, because in his mind they had wronged him, and violence is Tarrin's immediate response to such betrayal. But he also didn't outright kill the lead sage, nor his secretary. He doled out what he saw as just punishment against the sage, and permitted the secretary to live when she earned that right, in his eyes.
Tarrin is only a wanton destroyer when in a rage. Everything else he does, he does it because he has a specific reason for it.
And, as you and others have seen, his duality of mind has evolved simply beyond him being a Were-cat. It is now a fundamental aspect of his basic personality. All those years as a Were-cat has stamped that mode of thinking into him, even without the Cat in his mind.
This fundamental dichotomy, the two sides of him, human and Cat, hero and villain, good and evil, has been a cornerstone of the story for a long time. It makes him what he is, and he wouldn't be half as interesting without it.
Tarrin isn't your usual protagonist DuQuesne. He'd be classified by a literature major as a "dark hero." He is equal measure of hero and villain, a man working towards a noble end, but commiting evil in the course of it. At times in the books, he actually was the valiant crusader, but at other times, he was just as sinister and evil as the bad guys he was fighting against.
It is what he is, and his concept of morality and his outlook on life reflect this duality.
Just another guy from the shallow end of the gene pool.
Re: Morals
I think you've hit on the main attraction to Tarrin as a protagonist. He is a deeply flawed hero who does what has to be done. Of couse I would expect the author to be able to put it best. 
The kind of protagonist that drives me nuts as a reader is the one who constantly beats themselves up, like Thomas Covenant from the Unbeliever series, or the protagonist of the neverending Wheel of Time series. They have such a loathing of themselves that I lose all empathy for them. I guess that they become whiners in the end.
The great thing about Tarrin is you never crossed that line for me. Sure he was wracked with doubt at the changes made to him in the interest of necessity, and at the choices that had to be made. But after mourning his lost innocence, he eventually acceded to the need to act, and accepted that the price would have to be paid by him. This gave him a flawed nobility that spoke to anyone who has been forced to choose the lesser of two evils. Call it an anti fairy tale if you will. The protagonist isn't all good, and lives in a cynical state, where he does what has to be done.
Tex
The kind of protagonist that drives me nuts as a reader is the one who constantly beats themselves up, like Thomas Covenant from the Unbeliever series, or the protagonist of the neverending Wheel of Time series. They have such a loathing of themselves that I lose all empathy for them. I guess that they become whiners in the end.
The great thing about Tarrin is you never crossed that line for me. Sure he was wracked with doubt at the changes made to him in the interest of necessity, and at the choices that had to be made. But after mourning his lost innocence, he eventually acceded to the need to act, and accepted that the price would have to be paid by him. This gave him a flawed nobility that spoke to anyone who has been forced to choose the lesser of two evils. Call it an anti fairy tale if you will. The protagonist isn't all good, and lives in a cynical state, where he does what has to be done.
Tex