Retrubution Chapter 11 [Spoilers]

[kyli]

Jason might have shared the jack technology with the confederation in part to lessen the desire for biogenics, but Pai TK teachings will potentially completely reverse that. A generation can potentially have TK on a planetary scale, so all those tricks and abilities the Pai have developed, can be applied on such a grander scale.

Imagine a Karrine ship with just stealth and biogenic gestalt systems. A ship that is a literal ghost, and able to attack undetected.

And then the entire Confederation declares war on the Karrines. Jason DOESN'T want the Generations seen/used as weapons. That's why they aren't being used offensively on ships, just defensively as shields.

I agree, such a ship would have to be an absolute last resort. The ship(s) would also have to be decommissioned after the war and the biogenics removed because it would be useless and with only basic protection without a generation onboard to use the biogenics for defence/offence. And they aren't going to keep a generation on it permanently after the war is over.

[valinor89]

The only problem I see with using a biogenic amplifier in his arms is that it has been established (at least to my knowledge) that they consume a non negligible ammount of power (when Jason used commune with Ciby to defend Karis I believe that the limit was the power systems overheating). I imagine the amplifiers are much more efficient than a full sentient computer used as such, but I don't really see how all that power can be generated and used (hello thermodinamycs) inside his flesh without cookim him from the inside. Forget about using Jason's own energy for that.

Then again it has been stablished that this universe's version of google glass (personal gestalt) can also amplify a generation's TK, so maybe they dont require that much power.

[kyli]

The only problem I see with using a biogenic amplifier in his arms is that it has been established (at least to my knowledge) that they consume a non negligible ammount of power (when Jason used commune with Ciby to defend Karis I believe that the limit was the power systems overheating). I imagine the amplifiers are much more efficient than a full sentient computer used as such, but I don't really see how all that power can be generated and used (hello thermodinamycs) inside his flesh without cookim him from the inside. Forget about using Jason's own energy for that.

Then again it has been stablished that this universe's version of google glass (personal gestalt) can also amplify a generation's TK, so maybe they dont require that much power.

As i recall, Jason was reaching across hundreds, maybe thousands of miles to rip warships apart. There is a big difference there i think.

[GotToGo]

The only problem I see with using a biogenic amplifier in his arms is that it has been established (at least to my knowledge) that they consume a non negligible ammount of power (when Jason used commune with Ciby to defend Karis I believe that the limit was the power systems overheating). I imagine the amplifiers are much more efficient than a full sentient computer used as such, but I don't really see how all that power can be generated and used (hello thermodinamycs) inside his flesh without cookim him from the inside. Forget about using Jason's own energy for that.

Then again it has been stablished that this universe's version of google glass (personal gestalt) can also amplify a generation's TK, so maybe they dont require that much power.

As i recall, Jason was reaching across hundreds, maybe thousands of miles to rip warships apart. There is a big difference there i think.

Like comparing a 2000 lb bomb to a atomic bomb, inches to miles, and like a sexy kiss to making love.

[GotToGo]

lol, all this talk of shaman "powers."

You've already seen what Jason can do with his shaman "powers."

You guys realize that the Parri are complete pacifists and don't use what they know for violence, right? How are they going to teach him to go Rambo on the Syndicate with their shaman powers if they never use them to do harm?

You're looking at the wrong feline if you're looking for someone insanely OP. It's not the shaman that the Benga should fear, it's Mrar and the other Pai Masters with her skill and training.

Mrar is hard to write because she IS that powerful.

And you're going to get a look at just how nasty the Pai's telekinetic skills really are in this chapter. Jason has noted that it boggles his mind what the Pai can do with TK. You're going to see why soon.

You know your making us very impatient for chapter 12 now, by teasing us so!!!!!


Waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, etc. LOL

[valinor89]

The only problem I see with using a biogenic amplifier in his arms is that it has been established (at least to my knowledge) that they consume a non negligible ammount of power (when Jason used commune with Ciby to defend Karis I believe that the limit was the power systems overheating). I imagine the amplifiers are much more efficient than a full sentient computer used as such, but I don't really see how all that power can be generated and used (hello thermodinamycs) inside his flesh without cookim him from the inside. Forget about using Jason's own energy for that.

Then again it has been stablished that this universe's version of google glass (personal gestalt) can also amplify a generation's TK, so maybe they dont require that much power.

As i recall, Jason was reaching across hundreds, maybe thousands of miles to rip warships apart. There is a big difference there i think.

Like comparing a 2000 lb bomb to a atomic bomb, inches to miles, and like a sexy kiss to making love.

Am I really being unreasonable? Let's make a little thought experiment and find out using gross simplification and some plausible but invented numbers.

First, you are comparing apples to oranges with the 2000lb vs atomic bomb. I am saying that because both ciby (biogenic computer) and the prosthetic amplifier use roughtly the same tech, biogenic cristalls.

Fun fact, one average arm is 6% of the vody weight of a normal person. Don't remember jason's weight but let's assume 90kg (200lbs) for this.
We know his lower body was not enhanced, so his new limbs should not weight much more than the old ones, ~11kg (~25 pounds). It would also be highly suspicious if Jason were to appear weighting much more than expected.

We also know that they are keeping his musculature and all the "wet" things intact and "only" changing his bones. Asume the "wet" or fleshy parts represent more or less 50% by volume of the arm (I found no data about that, but i asume bones are solid) and that bone (i guess this figure would be for solid bone, wich bones are not) is 1,5 times denser than the fleshy parts we would get an aproximate 6.6 kg weight taken by the bones.

In aprox 7kg (~15 pounds) we need to include a power cell, cms modules and other auxiliary systems (did he keep the blades?) AND the biogenic cristals.

How much does Ciby and all her ancilliary equipment weight? We have no real idea, but considering she is by herself (cristal) quite large and most of her power systems are installed arround her, so I will pull a random number out of my ass and say about 1000 tons (bit more than 2 million pounds or the equivalent of 10 average residential houses). I consider this number to be quite low by the way but we know moving only her main core was quite the undertaking, but was done.

By this point all numbers are really speculation with no real data backing them up...

Let's just concentrate on range of effect of the powers Jason can wield and call his new (enhanced by the limbs) range to be an easy number, 100m meters. (And thanks to metric system the numbers are easy to shuffle arround). This results in 15m for every kg of equipment.

Orbit can be defined by many standards, but let's call it at 40km or 40.000 meters (hiigher than geo really). This would be 40m for every kg of supposed Cybi equipment.

By distance alone we are in the same ballpark, not so by raw power exerted at that distance. ( I am assuming TK is not affected logaritmically by distance as other forms of energy does)

Even so, considereding that the whole human body dissipates 100W of energy continuously, how much heat can his limbs generate before his flesh starts to melt away?

TLDR:

Nope, we are comparing a 7 kg bomb to a 1 thousand ton bomb.

[imthejman85]

As i recall, Jason was reaching across hundreds, maybe thousands of miles to rip warships apart. There is a big difference there i think.

Like comparing a 2000 lb bomb to a atomic bomb, inches to miles, and like a sexy kiss to making love.

Am I really being unreasonable? Let's make a little thought experiment and find out using gross simplification and some plausible but invented numbers.

First, you are comparing apples to oranges with the 2000lb vs atomic bomb. I am saying that because both ciby (biogenic computer) and the prosthetic amplifier use roughtly the same tech, biogenic cristalls.

Fun fact, one average arm is 6% of the vody weight of a normal person. Don't remember jason's weight but let's assume 90kg (200lbs) for this.
We know his lower body was not enhanced, so his new limbs should not weight much more than the old ones, ~11kg (~25 pounds). It would also be highly suspicious if Jason were to appear weighting much more than expected.

We also know that they are keeping his musculature and all the "wet" things intact and "only" changing his bones. Asume the "wet" or fleshy parts represent more or less 50% by volume of the arm (I found no data about that, but i asume bones are solid) and that bone (i guess this figure would be for solid bone, wich bones are not) is 1,5 times denser than the fleshy parts we would get an aproximate 6.6 kg weight taken by the bones.

In aprox 7kg (~15 pounds) we need to include a power cell, cms modules and other auxiliary systems (did he keep the blades?) AND the biogenic cristals.

How much does Ciby and all her ancilliary equipment weight? We have no real idea, but considering she is by herself (cristal) quite large and most of her power systems are installed arround her, so I will pull a random number out of my ass and say about 1000 tons (bit more than 2 million pounds or the equivalent of 10 average residential houses). I consider this number to be quite low by the way but we know moving only her main core was quite the undertaking, but was done.

By this point all numbers are really speculation with no real data backing them up...

Let's just concentrate on range of effect of the powers Jason can wield and call his new (enhanced by the limbs) range to be an easy number, 100m meters. (And thanks to metric system the numbers are easy to shuffle arround). This results in 15m for every kg of equipment.

Orbit can be defined by many standards, but let's call it at 40km or 40.000 meters (hiigher than geo really). This would be 40m for every kg of supposed Cybi equipment.

By distance alone we are in the same ballpark, not so by raw power exerted at that distance. ( I am assuming TK is not affected logaritmically by distance as other forms of energy does)

Even so, considereding that the whole human body dissipates 100W of energy continuously, how much heat can his limbs generate before his flesh starts to melt away?

TLDR:

Nope, we are comparing a 7 kg bomb to a 1 thousand ton bomb.

Most of the power comes from the relays, amplifiers, and aux units spread across the planet, not just the equipment located just near Cybi. There's no real data on that in the books, but I'm willing to bet it's several orders of magnitude more than whatever they would put in Jason's arms. I have to agree with the first assessment if you're looking at a pure power/force problem. A regular bomb compared to a nuke would be fitting I think. Or maybe a hand grenade going up against an anti matter bomb...

The real difference is Jason used the entire biogenic system on Karis to swat massive ships out of space. On the Benga's home world all he needs is enough power to protect his own mind and body and as Tarrin always said, 'it takes much less power to defend than to attack.'

Theoretically all Jason needs to do to escape the building is knock out a window and jump out, he could catch himself with his boosted TK if he had to.

[kyli]

@valinor89
First of all, Jason's arms don't need a power cell at all. They will run on broadcast power.

Second, I believe you are vastly overestimating cybi's size and weight. I expect that biogenic crystals arent very dense and therefore would weigh considerably less then a house even if they were the same size as a house. And if we combined the weight of cybi's core along with all her biogenic support systems and not counting anything that isnt biogenic, my estimate would be considerably lower then one residential house. I could be wrong of course, but thats my opinion. Moving cybi wasnt difficult because of how heavy she was. She is a very delicate intelligent computer that you dont want to have go down.

Let's just concentrate on range of effect of the powers Jason can wield and call his new (enhanced by the limbs) range to be an easy number, 100m meters. (And thanks to metric system the numbers are easy to shuffle arround). This results in 15m for every kg of equipment.

Orbit can be defined by many standards, but let's call it at 40km or 40.000 meters (hiigher than geo really). This would be 40m for every kg of supposed Cybi equipment.

In case you arent aware, 40km is still well within the atmosphere. If Jason was exclusively ripping apart warships only straight above the island where cybi is located and those ships were all fighting right outside the atmosphere, then they could have been within a few hundred miles. However, if, as i suspect, he had the range to destroy ships near the planet all around, then his range was probably more like over 10000 miles and I believe thats being conservative. The planets diameter is about 8000 miles assuming its near the same size as earth.

[MartinK]

@valinor89
First of all, Jason's arms don't need a power cell at all. They will run on broadcast power.

They do? Given that the broadcast power technology - or at least some version of it - comes from that galaxy I would assume that they have some sort of jamming going on in the most secure places. Would look pretty stupid if Jason goes there and finds his arms became little more than training weights.

Second, I believe you are vastly overestimating cybi's size and weight. I expect that biogenic crystals arent very dense and therefore would weigh considerably less then a house even if they were the same size as a house. And if we combined the weight of cybi's core along with all her biogenic support systems and not counting anything that isnt biogenic, my estimate would be considerably lower then one residential house. I could be wrong of course, but thats my opinion. Moving cybi wasnt difficult because of how heavy she was. She is a very delicate intelligent computer that you dont want to have go down.

The computer technology we are using today started out as primitive computers that were as big as houses. The only reason they are smaller today is because developing them smaller and more efficient saves us a ton of money... or allows us to put them in every house or carry them around as mobile phones in the first place. On the other hand, the biogenic CBIM systems are going to be very rare. There will never be more than perhaps a dozen or so for an entire world. You need not spend money in making technology smaller since you'll need to build so much support stuff around that, it is like building a mansion and paying double so that your new car is half as big as your neighbours use.

Rather, you put extra space in so that you can easily and quickly replace damaged components or repair them. Size doesn't matter.... or perhaps it does. It is a lot more difficult to steal a cybernetic crystal that weights a couple of tons than it is to steal one that you can carry under your arm. So, I always assumed that even if the crystal itself might at the beginning be small, the support systems around it certainly won't. There might also be the option that the newly awakened CBIM has the capability to grow additions of their own choice out of crystal. Humans certainly seem to thrive on body modifications of all sorts.

Modern super computers are still pretty large. And a CBIM is essentially some sort of super computer, just one that a spacefaring civilization build. I doubt Karis has trouble predicting the weather.

[valinor89]

@valinor89
First of all, Jason's arms don't need a power cell at all. They will run on broadcast power.

Second, I believe you are vastly overestimating cybi's size and weight. I expect that biogenic crystals arent very dense and therefore would weigh considerably less then a house even if they were the same size as a house. And if we combined the weight of cybi's core along with all her biogenic support systems and not counting anything that isnt biogenic, my estimate would be considerably lower then one residential house. I could be wrong of course, but thats my opinion. Moving cybi wasnt difficult because of how heavy she was. She is a very delicate intelligent computer that you dont want to have go down.

Let's just concentrate on range of effect of the powers Jason can wield and call his new (enhanced by the limbs) range to be an easy number, 100m meters. (And thanks to metric system the numbers are easy to shuffle arround). This results in 15m for every kg of equipment.

Orbit can be defined by many standards, but let's call it at 40km or 40.000 meters (hiigher than geo really). This would be 40m for every kg of supposed Cybi equipment.

In case you arent aware, 40km is still well within the atmosphere. If Jason was exclusively ripping apart warships only straight above the island where cybi is located and those ships were all fighting right outside the atmosphere, then they could have been within a few hundred miles. However, if, as i suspect, he had the range to destroy ships near the planet all around, then his range was probably more like over 10000 miles and I believe thats being conservative. The planets diameter is about 8000 miles assuming its near the same size as earth.

Oops, messed up writing it up. Meant to use GEO wich is aprox 40 thousand KM. Even so, that would means my final result, ciby weighting 1million kg and having a 40 thousand km range, wich in turn are 40 million meters, would result in 40 meters for kg of equipment, correct.

When you say " I expect that biogenic crystals arent very dense and therefore would weigh considerably less then a house" we don't have any data on cristal density, i have imagined it being similar in density to glass or to silicon (2329kg/m3), a cube 1m per side would weights 2 tons.

When Ciby is first descrived it is as " a cavernous rectangular room, clearly underground. It was dominated by a huge crystalling spire that rose up from the base of the floor, surrounded by a slender three rail fence that kept anyone from touching it. Machines lined the walls of the huge room, all of them now visibly powering up, some with lights blinking and others with technology within making a whining sound as they came online." I don't think 1000 tons of equipment is so much.

You are right when you say he uses all the ralays on the planet to get that massive effect. Let's include them on the 1000 tons of equipment. Even if we exclude the power generating elements of both ciby and all the relays on the planet that is still a lot of cristals to get that effect.

Even so, all my ramblings are pointless and just a thought experiment. We can only wait to read what the actual effect will be from Jason's biogenic arms.

[kyli]

@valinor89
First of all, Jason's arms don't need a power cell at all. They will run on broadcast power.

They do? Given that the broadcast power technology - or at least some version of it - comes from that galaxy I would assume that they have some sort of jamming going on in the most secure places. Would look pretty stupid if Jason goes there and finds his arms became little more than training weights.

In that case, the plan is already screwed because the nanites run on broadcast power. When Jason asked Myleena to create a broadcast power system for the Karinnes, he asked for a way to jam the Comsortium system, but also a system for the Karinnes that couldn't be jammed. I'm not sure if they discovered a way to jam the Consortium, but I think the Karinne system is pretty safe. The Consortium never figured out how to broadcast muti-phase power but the Karinnes did, so a system to block the consortium probably wouldn't effect the Karinnes.

The computer technology we are using today started out as primitive computers that were as big as houses. The only reason they are smaller today is because developing them smaller and more efficient saves us a ton of money... or allows us to put them in every house or carry them around as mobile phones in the first place. On the other hand, the biogenic CBIM systems are going to be very rare. There will never be more than perhaps a dozen or so for an entire world. You need not spend money in making technology smaller since you'll need to build so much support stuff around that, it is like building a mansion and paying double so that your new car is half as big as your neighbours use.

Rather, you put extra space in so that you can easily and quickly replace damaged components or repair them. Size doesn't matter.... or perhaps it does. It is a lot more difficult to steal a cybernetic crystal that weights a couple of tons than it is to steal one that you can carry under your arm. So, I always assumed that even if the crystal itself might at the beginning be small, the support systems around it certainly won't. There might also be the option that the newly awakened CBIM has the capability to grow additions of their own choice out of crystal. Humans certainly seem to thrive on body modifications of all sorts.

Modern super computers are still pretty large. And a CBIM is essentially some sort of super computer, just one that a spacefaring civilization build. I doubt Karis has trouble predicting the weather.

A curious, scientific nation like the Karinnes would always seek to improve their tech. The Karinnes are not known to be sloppy. And CBIM's may not have been common but biogenic computers were, and CBIM's are biogenic. I don't deny that the buildings housing the CBIM's aren't huge, but that's not just for the CBIM and it's boigenic support systems. It's for housing the maintenance staff, security, and additional systems like the core evacuation, cooling systems, power generation, backup systems, and backup systems for the backup systems, ect... But, I doubt we'll get numbers from Fel because when authors give out numbers, fans will often check these things and call out mistakes and inconsistencies. Then the author has to start making sure his math is right and we wait longer for a chapter.

Oops, messed up writing it up. Meant to use GEO wich is aprox 40 thousand KM. Even so, that would means my final result, ciby weighting 1million kg and having a 40 thousand km range, wich in turn are 40 million meters, would result in 40 meters for kg of equipment, correct.

When you say " I expect that biogenic crystals arent very dense and therefore would weigh considerably less then a house" we don't have any data on cristal density, i have imagined it being similar in density to glass or to silicon (2329kg/m3), a cube 1m per side would weights 2 tons.

When Ciby is first descrived it is as " a cavernous rectangular room, clearly underground. It was dominated by a huge crystalling spire that rose up from the base of the floor, surrounded by a slender three rail fence that kept anyone from touching it. Machines lined the walls of the huge room, all of them now visibly powering up, some with lights blinking and others with technology within making a whining sound as they came online." I don't think 1000 tons of equipment is so much.

You are right when you say he uses all the ralays on the planet to get that massive effect. Let's include them on the 1000 tons of equipment. Even if we exclude the power generating elements of both ciby and all the relays on the planet that is still a lot of cristals to get that effect.

Even so, all my ramblings are pointless and just a thought experiment. We can only wait to read what the actual effect will be from Jason's biogenic arms.

40 thousand km makes more sense and 1000 tons might be fair if you include biogenic support systems, if somewhat generous in my opinion. But you are only taking into account the range and not sheer power being unleashed. He was ripping Battleships apart!!!! Moreover, what started this conversation is you saying that Jason's arms would overheat and melt him just like Cybi overheated. But it was the power systems, not the biogenics, that overheated. And I suspect, although I don't think it's confirmed, that Jason's arms will be running on broadcast power, so the power plants will be elsewhere and will have more than enough power for Jason to do his tricks since those power plants won't be limited by the size of his arms.

[GotToGo]

valinor89,


You keep on throwing out numbers that have nothing that Fel's written to based it on:

1. You keep talking about how much Cybi weighs; doesn't even matter because its is an external output system like your computer Bluetooth chip. How big or how much it weights, Fel hasn't told us yet and Cybi doesn't control it - Jason did thru her from his interface chair, you have to be Telekinetic to operate it.
2. The adult Karinne's have a very tiny tactical gestalt put into their interfaces, because of the very little room that was left, and the kids and non-Karinne's don't have one. But how strong are they; well Fel tells us this, "The tactical gestalt in the endolimbs would do the job. It was about 15 times more powerful than his interface gestalt, and that was enough power for him to perform some pretty impressive telekinetic feats. With that much power, he could manipulate light to generate a laser beam more than powerful enough to kill, or burn through metal. He’d be able to generate enough Torsion to form a ball a good shakra across, where he could only create a pinpoint using his interface gestalt. So, from an oh shit point of view, he’d have weapons to use against the Benga guards in the Board’s council chamber." And that was before the tetryon wave weapons had been removed and one more amplifier stack had been added in their place, one in each arm; so now we know it will be more powerful than that, but not how much we don't know.
3. How much power we don't know because we don't know how much it would on expanded on how much broadcast power, but we just don't know how much that it is, nor it's effects.
4. Your trying to use facts that are not there, nor in the Books! Your assuming facts that are not there.

I not willing to be ME in your AssUme.

[GotToGo]

Now that that it's settled down a bit over the last few days, let's go back to what Fel posted earlier. And I quote Fel said - "And you're going to get a look at just how nasty the Pai's telekinetic skills really are in this chapter. Jason has noted that it boggles his mind what the Pai can do with TK. You're going to see why soon."

We know from the story that the PAI are pacifist but have been training Jason and his family, who are not. I think Jason going to be really-really be surprised at just how much he has improved his TK powers with what he has learned and much more so with the combined of the amplifiers in his new forearms. Just how much shit is going to tear up and rip apart of the Benga's?

Got any ideas?

[valinor89]

By te point he can control or manipulate individual atoms or particles the range of effects he can accomplish is quite large. Starting by chemical reactions or starting fission or fussion events he can use the power unleashed to acomplish bot very large or very small effects. He could cause a small fusion reaction and chanel that power into a plasma bolt or simply make a solid metal wall crumble into dust by breaquing or rearranging some bonds. How many atoms can he affect at the same time is the limiting factor here.

A bit more macro and he still can harness the power of the atom and achieve fusion by the gravity pinch metod. Put more power and you create a singularity, aka a tiny black hole.

Other utility effects could be a true invisibility by bending the full spectrum arround himself, jamm comms or even some teleport effects if he can control singularities. I doubt he could teleport himself but maybe "banish" an object or part thereof.

Even pushing all air except a bubble arround himself could have some uses. This could maybe let him reach orbit by himself and stay there for a time or stay underwater by changimg co2 back to oxigen in that bubble and have indefinite breathable bubble.

He is an engineer, I am sure he could achieve some spectacular effects.

[dstar]

So I've caught up on several chapters at once. Comments follow:

1. For a second, when Jason chose Cybi as the regent for Rann, I honest to god wasn't certain Jason would survive. Now, given everything in the series so far, that would be completely out of... er... character's not the right word, given that we're not talking about the character. It just wouldn't fit, at all. So I didn't think that for long -- but I did think it, so you did a really good job there.
2. Along those lines, if I was Jason, I'd formally declare that unless otherwise specified, Cybi was the Regent for any underage heir, that a majority of the CBIMs and CBMOMs could overrule the choice of Regent, and that a supermajority (75 or 85%, something like that) could overrule Cybi as Regent.
3. I'd really like to see exactly how Jason is going to convince Aya that:
   1. he shouldn't have his tibia, fibula, and ribs replaced with amplifier stacks
   2. more importantly, how he's going to convince her that Rann shouldn't have his radius, ulna, tibia, fibula, and ribs replaced with a tactical gestalt as soon as he's reached full growth.
4. I'd like to contribute to the drinking fund for Dahnai's equivalent of Aya, once she realizes that she can't have the Empress or her Heir replace her radius, ulna, tibia, fibula, and ribs with a tactical gestalt, given the Empress' quasi-religious standing. Poor bitch.
5. I think that, whether Jason realizes it or not, the scene at the end of the last chapter where Dahnai pulls him back from the brink represents a turning point for the Faey. (I'm certain that Dahnai doesn't realize it.)