Subjugation, chapter 18 - Spoilers

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Mizriath
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Re: Subjugation, chapter 18 - Spoilers

Post by Mizriath »

Hearly wrote:
Sangoma wrote: Yes, but Fel has said nothing about the rules of ascension for house leadership. How is the grand duke(dutchess) chosen? Also if it didn't matter, the Kimdori might as well tell all those 255 decendants they are also Kiranne right?
True, but for how much the Kimdori are interconnected with the Faey, I think there Say will matter, If they'd withdraw all there people from the Imperium, that would be a major setback they see Jason as Family, that matters more than anything else.
Kimdori will not directly meddle with Faey affairs except for Karinne. And that is to help Karinne who they owe a big debt.

They will definitely not withdraw from the Imperium as it will not help Jason Fox Shaddale Karinne.

Jason will be a noble and how he does it will be the story and how he will triumph against the Trillane who will not let go of Earth easily. Else the story will get too simplistic.

But a strange twist is that the Moridon is not friendly with the Kimdori, where I thought the Moridons are supposedly neutral. Well the Karinne are also neutral and they get kaboosed.
The sea flows as long as Earth exist, Love is alive as long as people exist. I will read Fel's stories as long as my heart still beats.
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Re: Subjugation, chapter 18 - Spoilers

Post by Spec8472 »

RevJest wrote:The person who can solve the Faey food problem is the person who can write their own ticket within the Imperium. The wealth, power, and influence would be staggering.
Certainly, but I think you're overselling the capabilities of the CBIM here.

The omega weapons irradiated the planet - they killed all biological matter, and caused huge amounts of damage.

They didn't strip the atmosphere away, or the oceans/etc.

The CBIM mopped up the radiation - removed/decontaminated the atmosphere, soil, oceans, etc. It then re-planted (some) plants and trees from surviving seed stocks.
A monumental task, but significantly less than generating a sustainable atmosphere on an otherwise barren rock.

There's no mention that I see of any terraforming

If Jason really wanted to do something, he could - taking a leaf (excuse the pun) from Greenies (by Al Steiner), here - build pressurised domes on mars-like planets and use the native soils to grow huge food crops - assuming that the food production from Earth still wasn't enough.
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Re: Subjugation, chapter 18 - Spoilers

Post by Phantom »

Sangoma wrote:
Hearly wrote:
Sangoma wrote:You're all missing the point. See, as far as we know, the CIBM (spelling) is the only method of terraforming an irradiating planet. All Trillane is doing is blasting the continental US, therefore they should let it go and buy the land from Trillane before presenting to the Empress, if they do that and revitalize it to farmland again, they've proved to the empress that they can do better than Trillane.

I suppose it all sits on the Sinn(?) Charter and if Jason can get the Empress to Give him Terra, and if he can't he should threaten with withholding all this "new" tech after showing it to them. =)
At least from what I read, there is no way the Emperess can stop him from Claiming Terra, He was there First, so Trilliane would have to cede it to him, Now with him in control, He can control Legion so the war would end immediately as that is there Goal (the removal of Trilliane from Earth) Now with Trilliane willing to destroy about a quarter of the Earth just because they cannot find Legion seems a bit too drastic, it would destroy a lot of the production capacity of the entire planet...
Everything you just said, sits heavily on the premise that Empress Dahnai recognises Jason as the Grand Duke. Only if he is the Grand Duke then his claim is valid, and remember that 255 other candidates including at least one (minor) Merrane are elligable for the spot because they can trace thier roots back to Kiranne.
They can't challenge it (the other 255) as he Holds the insignia ring of the Karinnes as passed to him by Grand Duchess Koiri Karinne and has been reconized by the CIBM as well as the Kimdori as being the Duke.
[Well, I’m a Merrane by birth,] Myleena told the computer. [Jason would be the ranking Karinne, because he’s not already part of another house.]
[Then it falls upon you, Jason.] The image motioned with its left hand, and a tiny door opened in the floor. A pedestal rose up from the floor, and then the top of it opened, revealing a small box. To Jason’s surprise, the box rose up from the pedestal and floated over to them. [As the ranking member of Karinne, this belongs to you.] Jason took the box, and felt that it had no wires or anything. How had it moved? He opened it, and found himself looking at a soft cloth cushion. Wedged into it was a gold ring, upon which the face of it was engraved the crest of Karinne.
It was the insignia ring of the Karinnes!
[This, the ring of Karinne, now belongs to you. I would name you Grand Duke Karinne, but you would be lord of a dead planet and ruler of a house of two,] it said with not a little cynicism. [But I was bade by Grand Duchess Koiri Karinne to surrender unto the ranking survivor of the house this ring, and thus I have fulfilled my duty.]


Phantom
And in the fury of this darkest hour
I will be your light
A lifetime for this destiny
For I am Winter born
And in this moment..I will not run
It is my place to stand
We few shall carry hope
Within our bloodied hands
(bloodied hands)
And in our Dying, we're more alive-than we have ever been
I've lived for these few seconds
For I am Winter born
The CruxShadows "Winterborn" (This Sacrifice)
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Re: Subjugation, chapter 18 - Spoilers

Post by Phantom »

Mizriath wrote:
Hearly wrote:
Sangoma wrote: Yes, but Fel has said nothing about the rules of ascension for house leadership. How is the grand duke(dutchess) chosen? Also if it didn't matter, the Kimdori might as well tell all those 255 decendants they are also Kiranne right?
True, but for how much the Kimdori are interconnected with the Faey, I think there Say will matter, If they'd withdraw all there people from the Imperium, that would be a major setback they see Jason as Family, that matters more than anything else.
Kimdori will not directly meddle with Faey affairs except for Karinne. And that is to help Karinne who they owe a big debt.

They will definitely not withdraw from the Imperium as it will not help Jason Fox Shaddale Karinne.

Jason will be a noble and how he does it will be the story and how he will triumph against the Trillane who will not let go of Earth easily. Else the story will get too simplistic.

But a strange twist is that the Moridon is not friendly with the Kimdori, where I thought the Moridons are supposedly neutral. Well the Karinne are also neutral and they get kaboosed.
in Referring to the Kimdori (Well as they said in Independance Day )(ID4) ... That not entirely true....

[They also are forbidden to insinuate themselves in the affairs of others of their own volition,] the computer told him. [They may interfere if hired by another as part of their own activities, but they cannot take initiative. The Kimdori are watchers, Jason, not meddlers. They meddle when and where it suits them at the behest of the involved races, but they take no direct hand of action, in any matter that is not solely their own.]
so there is a Grey Area here and By requesting assistance from the Kimdori Has he in Fact Hired them ? They are after all interfeering in House Merrane's wish's by restoring the planet right ?

But besides all of that ....This line Grabed me and it changes it all or could.....
[The Karinnes and Kimdori are deeply intertwined, Jason. We served as their intermediary in many things, and they helped us in the Program. The Kimdori kept several of the clans here, on Karis, where we helped train them and prepare them for their duties. After the Generations program began, the Kimdori saw the Karinnes as simply a new branch of their race.
They called the Karinne “cousins.” Even though there is less than .01% of Kimdori DNA inside you, they felt that that was enough to consider the Karinnes family, because they would look upon the Karinnes and know them, just as they knew each other. That unseen side effect was why the Kimdori saw the Karinnes as family.]

Jason lowered his head and pondered it. It did make a kind of sense. If the Kimdori saw the Karinnes as part of the family unit, part of the family, they would definitely go to great lengths for them. Pack mentality, Symone had called it. [Was this what Miaari wanted me to find out? Is this the truth they’ve been hiding all these years? The origins of the Karinnes?]
Kinda gives a Whole new meaning to this quote doesn't it?
but they take no direct hand of action, in any matter that is not solely their own.]
Grand Duke Jason Fox Shaddale Karinne.....Is Family to the Kimdori
Are Jason's Problems now also The Clans Problems...

Am i reading this Right ?



Phantom
Last edited by Phantom on Tue Dec 26, 2006 2:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
And in the fury of this darkest hour
I will be your light
A lifetime for this destiny
For I am Winter born
And in this moment..I will not run
It is my place to stand
We few shall carry hope
Within our bloodied hands
(bloodied hands)
And in our Dying, we're more alive-than we have ever been
I've lived for these few seconds
For I am Winter born
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Re: Subjugation, chapter 18 - Spoilers

Post by J-Man5 »

I'm wondering if the ring is an organic computing device that will work in conjunction with his gestalt to give him access to some of the house's secrets as its ruler?

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Re: Subjugation, chapter 18 - Spoilers

Post by Phantom »

J-Man5 wrote:I'm wondering if the ring is an organic computing device that will work in conjunction with his gestalt to give him access to some of the house's secrets as its ruler?

J-Man5
At first I was thinking some of the same ....but more important is What Miaari wants jason to study. The Ring is His idenity ...But
the Siann Charter now thats the Bill of Rights
. Have her download a copy into this. Read it,” she told him, tapping the gestalt on his face, placing a lingering finger on the prong leading down in front of his ear. “Everything you need to complete that task will be in the charter. You will know what to do. Just understand one thing, my friend. When you take that step, you are accepting the responsibility that making such a claim will entail. If you challenge Trillane for ownership of Terra, understand that you must carry through with that responsibility. Your ignorance of the workings of the houses or the basic fundamentals of Imperial economics will not be an excuse. The Empress will expect the same from you she expects from Trillane, and unlike Trillane, you have nothing but your own self and the money you have stored away on Moridon. Understand this before you take that step. Be ready for it.”
He could not miss her warning. Make sure you know what the hell you are doing before you even think of standing before the Empress. Have a plan.
I wonder if The Siann Charter Allows for Disputes between The Heads Noble House's to be settled By personal Combat ?

I loved this part as she Explains to his the Meaning of the Ring.
He.He.He "One Ring to Rule them All"
“This is what I sent you here to recover, Jason. Nothing else. This is the greatest treasure on Karis. This ring gives you the fealty of the CBIM, and that is a powerful, powerful thing. It marks you as the lord of this planet. Everything here belongs to you, and to you alone. And I knew that it would be you that would receive it. Myleena would reject the ring because she is a Merrane first.”
“You knew about her.”
“Since the day she was born.”
Jason looked at the ring. “I don’t understand, Miaari. How can this help me? It really doesn’t mean anything.”
“It means everything, my dear friend,” she told him, looking down at him seriously. “And this is something I do not need to be evasive about, Jason.
This has nothing to do with oaths or secrets. This ring marks you as a member of the Siann, the ranks of the noble rulers. You are the Grand Duke of a noble house, you sit upon its throne.

According to the laws of the Siann,

you can claim right of ownership of Terra, because you were there first. You were born there, you were raised there. You are a Terran. Your citizenship upon Terra absolutely cannot be challenged.

That is why I sent you here, Jason. Not only were you the perfect choice to take the seat of Karinne, you also had the most to gain from that position, and could bring about real and effective change because of it. Unlike any of the others, who would use this gift as nothing but a means of self-enrichment, we knew that you would use this power wisely and responsibly, and could immediately use it as a club to strike the hands of Trillane away from your home planet. Trillane has run rampant all over your planet and your people. They have done much more than you know, and none of it has been good. The slaving is but one small activity you stumbled upon by accident. They have done equally terrible things.”
But the Part I really loved was this.
Zaa seemed to have wanted to go there to look upon the CBIM, and ask that one question.
She turned to Jason and regarded him with those powerful eyes. “I will return to my ship now, Jason, so that I might be on hand to coordinate the repair efforts. It would please me to visit you again this evening. Miaari has shared with me that you have something to read, and some decisions to make.
I would give you the time and space you need to ponder these matters, so you might better consider your next course of action. Later, if you so wish it, I would give you counsel and answer any other questions you might have.”
“I’d really appreciate that, Denmother.”
He He He There is Nothing Like having the Counsel of "Perry Mason" When your Charged with Murder. ( there it's fixed ;P )

My god She has Seen Countless Faey Empress's and Emperors come and go.
She witnessed the Destruction of the House of Karrine Personally (Who else but another Kimdori can say that ?) and she it seems is Wise Beyond Wise ....and has requested Jason to Seek her Counsel on this...

Oh the Feay are SO SO Screwed it's like Giving a Feringi the Key to Fort Knox and then Turing your back for a month.

Given who and what she is ....is there ANY Secret the Faey have she doesn't know ?




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Last edited by Phantom on Tue Dec 26, 2006 2:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.
And in the fury of this darkest hour
I will be your light
A lifetime for this destiny
For I am Winter born
And in this moment..I will not run
It is my place to stand
We few shall carry hope
Within our bloodied hands
(bloodied hands)
And in our Dying, we're more alive-than we have ever been
I've lived for these few seconds
For I am Winter born
The CruxShadows "Winterborn" (This Sacrifice)
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Re: Subjugation, chapter 18 - Spoilers

Post by SYED »

where is chapter 18, i can not find it anywhere, can someone please post it i want to know what happens
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Re: Subjugation, chapter 18 - Spoilers

Post by Spec8472 »

SYED wrote:where is chapter 18, i can not find it anywhere, can someone please post it i want to know what happens

Over in General Discussion, along with the others. Specificly, <a href="http://sennadar.plebian.net/forum/viewt ... 7">here</a>.

It's not posted on the website 'cause it's not finished.
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Re: Subjugation, chapter 18 - Spoilers

Post by Spec8472 »

Phantom wrote:[There is Nothing Like having the Council of "Perry Mason" When your Charged with Murder.
Err, it's Counsel, not Council. (And I'm not being nitpicking here, it's a big difference in terms of implications).

Having the den-mother give you counsel is a big thing... She's offering her considered advice, I doubt she'd be offering to act as a legal attourney.

And I'm guessing that after we go through this Siann business, any potential legal issues (for Jason & associates) will evaporate.
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Re: Subjugation, chapter 18 - Spoilers

Post by Phantom »

Spec8472 wrote:
Phantom wrote:[There is Nothing Like having the Council of "Perry Mason" When your Charged with Murder.
Err, it's Counsel, not Council. (And I'm not being nitpicking here, it's a big difference in terms of implications).

Having the den-mother give you counsel is a big thing... She's offering her considered advice, I doubt she'd be offering to act as a legal attourney.

And I'm guessing that after we go through this Siann business, any potential legal issues (for Jason & associates) will evaporate.
I blame it on the Speel checker .....


That was my point It's like having Albert Einstein Help balance your check book. Or Donald Trump personaly Look at some manison your thinking of buying for 24 thousand dollars.





Grand Duke insignia ring of the Karinnes.................Price about $400 earth dollars
A 500 year old gestalt ............................................Price unknown.
Finding out your Related to the Kimdori ..................Could Be Priceless

Having The DenMother of the Kimdori Personaly Counsel on the Siann and Maters of the Imperium.......lets just say..
It's a Bad Day to be a Trillane.

For everything else theres .....Well there just isn't anything for everything else.



Phantom
The officaly unofficial Sub-Nerdiness and Geeky "fount of subjugation knowledge"
............Hey i never voted on this
And in the fury of this darkest hour
I will be your light
A lifetime for this destiny
For I am Winter born
And in this moment..I will not run
It is my place to stand
We few shall carry hope
Within our bloodied hands
(bloodied hands)
And in our Dying, we're more alive-than we have ever been
I've lived for these few seconds
For I am Winter born
The CruxShadows "Winterborn" (This Sacrifice)
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Re: Subjugation, chapter 18 - Spoilers

Post by J-Man5 »

That seemed to amuse Cybi. [Be patient, your Grace. Leadership is a learned skill more than it is a natural quality.]
Now that Jason is being helped by the DenMother who is definitely a Leader he can be taught the same way as he has been for other things like how to pilot a Mech. The DenMother can teach him politics and Leadership by sharing the knowledge. That should make him effective faster. And help him make more use out of the Charter.

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Re: Subjugation, chapter 18 - Spoilers

Post by codewarrior »

While the Karinne did have teraforming technology it is not exactly instantanious it took what 1500 years or somthing like that for the CIBM to get as far as she did. Also perhaps why Fel has not gone the way Biodome is because they are hard maintain self-sustaining ecosystem. Ecosystems are a hard thing to maintain when they are scaled down. I think the more profitable/( useful to everyone) tech would be the metaphased plasma systems. Okay I know this is corny but I could not help it that stupid Toyota song came in to my head. "I just want my MPG"(Metaphaesd Plasma Generator)
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Re: Subjugation, chapter 18 - Spoilers

Post by Phantom »

codewarrior wrote:While the Karinne did have teraforming technology it is not exactly instantanious it took what 1500 years or somthing like that for the CIBM to get as far as she did. Also perhaps why Fel has not gone the way Biodome is because they are hard maintain self-sustaining ecosystem. Ecosystems are a hard thing to maintain when they are scaled down. I think the more profitable/( useful to everyone) tech would be the metaphased plasma systems. Okay I know this is corny but I could not help it that stupid Toyota song came in to my head. "I just want my MPG"(Metaphaesd Plasma Generator)

Actually I wouldn't call what they are doing Terraforming all the CIBM realy seems to be doing is to remove the Radiation and then Replant the decontaminated area's

Terraforming to me would Suggest/Mean that they take a planet that isn't Terra or Earth Like and then change the entire environment to one that was. While technically you could be correct saying it's terraforming (see quotes below)

All that I really see the CIBM has done or been doing for over 500 years is Cleaning up an Environmental hazard. Like Cleaning an Oil Slick out of the Ocean. Or removing the Mud and debris after a flood.

I found these on the web
terraform /'teraform/ v.t. M2O. [f. TERRA + FORM v.] Chiefly Sci. Fiction. Transform (a planet, environment, etc.) into something resembling the earth, esp. as regards suitability for human life.
L. Brown (Ed.), The New Shorter Oxford English Dictionary, Vol. 2 (1993).
Terraforming is a process of planetary engineering, specifically directed at enhancing the capacity of an extraterrestrial planetary environment to support life. The ultimate in terraforming would be to create an uncontained planetary biosphere emulating all the functions of the biosphere of the Earth---one that would be fully habitable for human beings.
M.J. Fogg, Terraforming: Engineering Planetary Environments, SAE International (1995)
.
Now Fel only use's the Word Terraforming Twice in all of Subugation...
Both times appear in chapter 17 and are like in one paragraph almost together.
they are as follows
There were trees there! Trees! Zora zoomed in and managed to get individual trees on the monitor, then panned out and showed that the entire island was carpeted in trees and grass.
“What in the bloody hell is going on,” Zora breathed. “Plants? Someone must have cleaned up all the radiation, and they’re terraforming the planet to make it habitable again. And they’re hiding what they’re doing behind a sensor jamming network.”
“Who could do it?”
“Nobody,” Zora said. “Omega radiation will kill just about anything but a Jakkan, who wouldn’t change it, or a—“ she gasped, and looked Jason in the eye. “Or a Kimdori!”
“Is this what she wanted us to see? See her people terraforming Karis back to where it’s inhabitable?”
“Why? She could have just told us,” Zora mused.
“Yeah. So, Myri, do we land?”
But whats happening on Karis shouldn't have been a total suprise to anyone as Fel told us in Chapter 1
The Faey did turn out to be not quite so heartless as humans originally first believed. They installed a
great deal of their own technology on the planet to clean up the environment and converted all human cars
and trucks to fuel cells of hydrogen, which burned cleanly.
I would assume this Meant they also removed hazardous waste dumps and radiological hazards as well ....
Same as the Cleaning up happening on Karis only on a smaller scale in this case.

This dosen't mean they might not have that ability but if they did why not transform Mars? Makes sense .....More Farms and food could be produced and I'm sure you might get some humans to move there to farm it.

Hey you get 2 for 1 doing it and One is allready producing while you wait on the other to get ready for plant life.


Phantom
And in the fury of this darkest hour
I will be your light
A lifetime for this destiny
For I am Winter born
And in this moment..I will not run
It is my place to stand
We few shall carry hope
Within our bloodied hands
(bloodied hands)
And in our Dying, we're more alive-than we have ever been
I've lived for these few seconds
For I am Winter born
The CruxShadows "Winterborn" (This Sacrifice)
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Re: Subjugation, chapter 18 - Spoilers

Post by Fel »

Sure, the Faey can Terraform, but their science is limited. They've done terraforming on certain planets where the technology is viable, but they can't terraform on a scale you guys are considering.

Consider:

The planet has to have the proper base climate to allow this. Terraforming Pluto gives you a pretty planet that's still -300 degrees.

The planet has to have sufficient resources pre-existing on the planet to support terraforming efforts. Remember, they can't replicate anything but single elements. So sure, they can oxygenize an atmosphere, but if the planet doesn't have a base supply of necessary compounds, like water, then it's not very useful. And introducing oxygen, a highly reactive element, into an oxygen-starved environment leads to its own entire set of curious little problems, if there are any exposed elements or compounds on the planet that will react with the oxygen.

The planet has to be able to support a radical alteration of its base nature, and retain the alterations made upon it. They could terraform Mars, for example, but the atmosphere there is so thin that it's basicly unsupportable for life. And sure, they could generate gas-producing facilities to thicken the atmosphere, but remember, there's history that Mars once had a climate like Earth's, but THE PLANET CHANGED AND CAN NO LONGER SUPPORT THAT CLIMATE. Mars has no magnetosphere, and without that, solar wind will strip the thickened atmosphere right off the planet like it did the original one. And anyone walking on the face of Mars will get one hell of a sunburn. So, they could terraform Mars, but the planet's condition wouldn't allow that terraforming to be maintainable. It would eventually decay back to its original, inhospitable state.

The terraforming of Karis is possible because the planet already had all the prerequisite conditions to support it...after all, it WAS a life-sustaining planet, and the events that destroyed that ecosystem were artificial, not natural. Once the CBIM cleaned up all the radiation, all it really had to do was try to get life to take root on the planet again.

If you really, REALLY wanna get technical, yes, large-scale massive terraforming is possible. The Faey have the technology. They could build machines to generate what they need and artificially shore up a planet so it could maintain those alterations over time.

It would just take about 2,000 years to accomplish. You're talking about massive, wide-scale alteration on a planetary scale. Look at Karis; it took Cybi 600 years JUST to clean up all the radiation. And that is only ONE aspect of wide-scale terraforming.

Remember, what is POSSIBLE is not always what is PRACTICAL.
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Re: Subjugation, chapter 18 - Spoilers

Post by Sangoma »

Fel, when he gets control of Earth, will that be the end of book 1? and what will Book 2 be about exactly?
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