Weapons against demons

[Dash]

If I remember right, the first time that Tarrin met demons (when he was on the quest for the fire staff) didn't he have problems trying to use their weapons against them?

Now, in Demonsbane, in the Nexus, he seems to have used demon weapons against the demons. Is this correct?

[Lochar]

He couldn't have used the Cambion's weapon against their mother, Shiika. Cambions are half mortal, so she gave them superior local plane weapons.

The weapon Tarrin stole from the vrock was an Abyss spawned weapon. It was tied to the demon, meaning it wasn't local. Thus Tarrin was able to put it to good use against the other demons.

[Fel]

Correct.

Shiika's cambisi were armed with the best weapons that Sennadar had to offer.

Demons make DAMN sure they're armed with weapons that can hurt OTHER Demons. Remember, a Demon's greatest enemies are the OTHER Demons.

The glaive Tarrin took from the vrock is a Demonic weapon, forged in the Abyss, and it has the power to harm any Demon, anywhere, immunities or no immunities. This isn't a magical power, this is a simple fact. Demons can be hurt by weapons made in the Abyss, even if they're non-magical, because these weapons are "in tune" with Demons. Just as Tarrin can be hurt by any silver, Demons can be hurt by any object from their home plane. Those weapons are not entirely permanent outside the Abyss...they truly exist in the Abyss, but when a Demon forms a new body in another plane, he also creates a duplicate of his weapon that has all the powers and abilities of the original, but is not the original. The original weapon becomes a "shadow" of the copy the Demon made in that other plane, which cannot be used so long as the copy exists. If a Demon is killed with one of these weapons, it dissolves with its body. Only one "copy" of a weapon can exist at any one time.

The glaive and trident that Tarrin has taken from the Demons he's killed are still with him because he took their soul amulets. Now these two weapons are no longer copies, they are the REAL weapons. When Tarrin took the soul amulets of the owners of those weapons, it destroyed the original weapons that were tied to the body of the Demon and caused the copies to become the true weapons. The shadows in the Abyss faded when the soul they were linked to was taken from the Abyss, and since all the weapon's power is tied up in the copied weapon, it literally becomes the real one.

The glaive Tarrin's currently toting around will remain so long as the vrock who came to Crossroads with it remains alive. If it's killed, the weapon will dissolve away. This is why Tarrin was careful NOT to kill the vrock, he only brokes its wings and cut off its feet to keep it from being able to pursue him. If he wants to keep permanent possession of that glaive, he has to take the soul amulet of the vrock that owns it. That vrock is effectively weaponless right now. It can't use the ORIGINAL weapon, because the copy currently has all of its magical powers and the original and it is a shadow of the copied weapon. If it tries to take that glaive out of the Abyss, it will be destroyed, and the copy will become the true weapon. So, the vrock has no choice but to try to take its glaive back from Tarrin to regain its weapon...and that's not going to be easy.

[Wildcat]

Ooh, that's interesting. I was kinda figuring demon weapons could hurt other demons, but I didn't realize there was more to it than just that. Thanks for clearing it up.

[Lochar]

Can't that vrock just have another demon kill it? Then he'll fade from Crossroads, and the weapon will as well. Then he can come back with his weapon again.

[Dash]

Can't that vrock just have another demon kill it? Then he'll fade from Crossroads, and the weapon will as well. Then he can come back with his weapon again.

I suppose it could, but there must be a general order that they don't attack each other. Unless one of the other demons had a specific order to do it.
The demons wouldn't dare attack another one, since there might be a general fight if they were allowed to attack each other. Then the demon lord would have their hide when he next saw them.

[Shadowhawk]

I suppose it could, but there must be a general order that they don't attack each other. Unless one of the other demons had a specific order to do it.

Hmm... I though the idea was that Demons fight each other constantly (see for an example The Battle of Suld, and Shiika's Demons agains marlith/Val Demons).

But I don't think that getting killed is without consequences for the Demon. Probably some lowering of power... and this for low level Demon like vrock might be quite large. And getting killed (or commiting suicide; there is this option) might be against demonic nature, additionally.

[Lunchbox]

a demon after it is killed cannot make a new body for another 100 years

[Lochar]

a demon after it is killed cannot make a new body for another 100 years

300 years actually, now that you remind me of it.

And only in that particular plane. He just couldn't go back to the crossroads for 300 years.

[Journeywoman]

a demon after it is killed cannot make a new body for another 100 years

300 years actually, now that you remind me of it.

And only in that particular plane. He just couldn't go back to the crossroads for 300 years.

It makes you almost feel sorry for the demon, caught between having no weapon vs being banished from the crossroads to get it's weapon (with the being which killed it if the Deva get there in time) vs losing it's soul amulet AND weapon! But then again it is a Demon, it deserves it !

[Shadowhawk]

By the way, I wonder what happens if some Wizard or God tries to summon Demon which is unable to go to the plane (is banned?) due to being killed within 100 (300?) years there.

[Lunchbox]

hmm the answer to this lies in Shaz' Baket

i cannot name the timeline of her appearing but didnt she pop up on sennadar twice in around 4 years?

[Lochar]

She didn't die during Book 5.

She was banished by Tarrin during the assault on the Tower. Does banishment come under the same rules as actually being killed.

--Edit

Wootage, 666 posts!

[Fel]

Usually, yes. When Tarrin banished Shaz'Baket, USUALLY it would be 100 years before she could return.

But Shaz'Baket was returned to Sennadar by a god, who can bend those rules to some degree. Val summoned her HIMSELF, using a different method, which allowed her to return...but that summons came at a price.

You see, that was the REAL Shaz'Baket. That was not a created body with her soul remaining in the Abyss. That was HER. The only way she could return would be to come personally, bringing her soul along with her. Were she to die on Sennadar, it would have destroyed her soul amulet, and that death would have been REAL. She wouldn't have been utterly destroyed, though...her soul would have been returned to the Abyss, but it would NOT be as a marilith...she would have returned as the weakest of all Demonkind, a manes. The only way to destroy a Demon's soul is to destroy its soul amulet in the Abyss, if it has one, or slay a Demon not powerful enough to separate its soul from its body and do so in the Abyss.

And as a manes, Shaz'Baket's life expectancy would drop to almost zilch. manes don't last long in the Abyss, especially since she would be "marked" as a Demon who had lost her power and had returned as a manes. Those manes tend to get squished by other Demons very quickly, because they were weak, and don't even deserve to be a manes.

That was the price of returning. She had to put her power, and in a way, her very soul on the line.

So, as you can see, there was a HUGE personal risk to her involved in coming back to Sennadar, the threat of losing all of her power and potentially being utterly destroyed, following Val into oblivion. But she did come back.

It says much about Shaz'Baket's loyalty to Val that she permitted this, but in the end, it really didn't help her all that much...hehehe.

Now before you start screaming "SHE DIED!!!", WRONG!

Jesmind only saw her get crushed by a huge collapse of a wall...SHE NEVER SAW THE BODY.

Shaz'Baket managed to save herself by canceling her summons and being returned to the Abyss just before she would have been crushed.

See, this is an example of one those little things that you guys never see, something that ONLY matters to me, given I'm the one responsible for both continuity and logical reasoning of plot development...there's a method to all of this madness, and sometimes it's a major hassle to keep it all straight.

[Shadowhawk]

Fel, if I remember correctly you or Lochar have said previously that killing Demon "bans" it/him/her from the plane the Demon was killed for 100 years, and that Banishment (Priest spell) is weaker because it doesn't prevent the Demon from returning to the plane it was banished on. In the case of Sennadar however the only way the Demon can get/return to it is being summoned (or overcoming the Gatekeeper, i.e. Spyder (or at some time Tarrin)).

But I might be mistaken...

Now before you start screaming "SHE DIED!!!", WRONG!

Jesmind only saw her get crushed by a huge collapse of a wall...SHE NEVER SAW THE BODY.

Shaz'Baket managed to save herself by canceling her summons and being returned to the Abyss just before she would have been crushed.

Then of course the death of Shaz'Baket would only meant for her to be banned from Sennadar.

Nevertheless it is good that Shaz'Baket is banned for at least 100 years from Sennadar. That (and who would summon her?) prevents her from going against Tarrin friends and family.