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Let me preface this with this warning: if you don't like politics, stop reading now.

Still here? Fine, then. You were warned.

As I sit here on Tuesday night watching the election returns, I have to admit that I have completely and utterly lost faith in America as a nation.

I know this sounds dramatic, but hear me out.

First, let me say that I am predicting that Trump is going to lose the election, BARELY. And that barely is the crux of my disquiet. What I have seen tonight has shown me that there is a segment of this country that is willing to side with a complete disaster of a politician and a human being that is Donald Trump. My disdain for Trump is well known to those who've followed me for a while, but I had this naive belief that after four years, that people would see him for who and what he really is.

And I have never been so wrong.

To save this country, the Republican party and its voters had to repudiate Trump and reject Trumpism, which is a philosophy of bullying, cruelty, greed, discrimination, and revenge. But I've seen that Trump was not the impetus of a change within the GOP, he was only a visible symptom of the rot that had always been there.

Republicans didn't denounce Trump and everything he's done, including allow a pandemic to rage across our country and kill a quarter million Americans. They embraced him, and everything he stands for. They are celebrating his cruelty. They are reveling in his darkness. They cheered on his racism and xenophobia.

I see now that they always were what he is now.

This realization has made me come to the belief that the United States of America is doomed. And I am not in any way being hyperbolic or reactionary. I came to this realization with the calm logic of a man that has studied Trump and Trumpism for nearly six years. Trumpism is the ultimate and unavoidable result of a political party that has sold its soul to win, that will cheat, lie, steal, even kill in order to gain and retain power. And since the members of that party have not rejected it in this crucial moment where the soul of our nation was on the line, it means that they will only be emboldened to take it to that next step to ensure they hold onto their power.

There will be a civil war in the United States. And I think it is coming sooner rather than later.

Why I believe this is simple. The GOP has demonstrated that they are fully on board with cheating, lying, stealing, and recently violence in order to retain power. And you will see this penchant amplify exponentially over the next four years, as I believe that Biden will be the President--BARELY--and the GOP will get progessively more and more extreme in their strategy to oppose him. You will see the GOP and its members all but declare Biden illegitimate, and you will see them become progressively more and more hostile, more tolerant of extremism, until a breaking point is reached and violence becomes a means to the end of retaking the White House and consolidating their hold on power, transforming this nation from a democratic republic to an authoritarian, fascist regime.

I think that by 2032, The United States of America will no longer exist. Not as we know it now. Maybe not even at all.

Call me hysterical. Call me a doomsayer. But I firmly and wholly believe that this is coming, and it saddens me to say it. I wish I were wrong. I don't want to believe it. But I see it as an inevitability that cannot be avoided, not now. All it's going to take is one act of bloodshed, and this entire nation is going to explode.

Maybe literally.

We were given one last chance to turn away from this path, and we failed. As people, as a society, as a nation. We will become what we once decried.

There's an old saying, I don't know who coined it, but it goes like this: "when fascism comes to the United States, it will not come in the form of armies invading our shores. It will come carrying a bible and wrapped in the flag."

That has come to pass. And there is no turning back. The serpent is inside the house, and now it will begin poisoning us all.

This nation has lost its way. This nation will become something very dark, and I have the feeling that the rest of the world may take steps to protect themselves from us. And I will not blame them.

If you're not American, stay far away from us.

If you are American, don't be surprised when people start killing each other over political ideology.

That's about all I have to say. I think I'm gonna take a few weeks off from everything and just spend time with my mother, my family, so I have something good to take with me when the destruction of this nation I once served, that I loved, begins.

Pray for us all.

It's coming.

I agree with this entire post, except on the completely different side. You think it's the Trump supporters, I think it's the Biden supporters and out spoken Far Left that are pulling Democrats more and more to the Left. I agree that a Civil War is coming, I agree the nation won't be around in 10 to 20 years.

You think it won't be long before the two factions are out there killing one another, but the Far Left has been at that for months Fel. You talk about Trump's racism and xenophobia, but I've seen just as many clips of the Left doing what you decry as I ever have Trump.

The Left called Trump xenophobic for banning travel to and from China and then complained he hasn't done enough to stop Covid, even when the Left was impeaching Trump for no reason. Over a month after the virus became big news world wide the Democrats were telling people it wasn't a big deal and Pelosi was telling people to go to Chinatown to celebrate the Chinese New Year.

You say the GOP has been cheating, lying, stealing, and enacting violence when they've been doing literally nothing beyond what the Dems have been doing the last 4 years.

I'm sorry but the Left does not have the moral high ground, and neither does the Right. Both sides are completely fucked, I don't foresee a reconciliation between the two sides, and meanwhile countries like China, Russia, and Iran are rubbing their hands together in collective glee.

So you have realised it as well.

The rot you mentioned does not exist in the fabric of "US Kultur" alone, it has spread all over the globe. Here, in my native Germany and everwhere else, with the exception of Island and some scandinavian country's, the same rot has found plenty of purchase and the Chinese Communist Party is playing its long waiting game and will pounce on europe and the whole planet, once the US begins to tear itself apart. THEY ARE ALREADY HERE ( Skyrim trailer ref. )

If you would care to watch Michael Moore's "Where to invade next" on https://watchdocumentaries.com/?s=michael+moore european countries and their societal achievements are portrayed as the complete opposite to US society in many ways.

Do not be deceived!

Yes, we generaly have a much more humane overall culture of law and order, of resocialisation of criminals and comparably far superior healthcare systems than you on the other side of the world.

Yet, I am being denied lifesaving surgery and rehabilitation treatments through bureaucratic sheenanigans and a hidden "you get to live, you must die - sucks to be you pal" policy here in germany.

If you are tooo expensive to treat "they" will find a way to get rid of you, so that you will conveniently die off.

It is an open secret in my country that when former West- and East-Germany became one nation again, that the "Westdeutsche Wirtschaft" (West- German Business Community) raped and pillaged East-German factories, intellectual properties and businessess and murdered those who opposed such things.

People like Alfred Herrhausen ( CEO of "Deutsche Bank" in 1989 ) and Detlef Rohwedder ( Exo of "Treuhand" in 1991, a trust organisation tasked with handling the effects of the former East-German regime ) where murdered because they where progressive, rational thinkers and visionaries who knew what would happen if West-German hyper-capitalist attitudes where allowed to rampage unchecked across our unified nation.

The results are visible even to the blind. Here too a massive rift exists that splits our nation. Our fellow countrymen and women in the "Neue Bundesländer", the "New Federal States of Germany" ( former East-Germany ) receive less pay for equal work and less pensions than west-germans in the "Alte Bundesländer" ( the old 11 Federal States that comprised former West-Germany before the union in 1990 ).

Society is unravelling and the wolves are baying at the borders of the old continent.

The destructive mindset, as defined by Ayn Rand in her bullsh*t novel "Atlas Shrugged", has poisoned the whole world by way of our way of uncritical emulation of american business practises.

That is not to claim, that selfish and cutthroat attitudes where previously unknown here in the old world. It was europeans after all, who brought that heartless and soulless capitalistic culture to a continent, that originally did not know such things.

And all too often veiled in religious drivel and more dogmatic bullsh*t!

THEY ARE ALREADY HERE, just look at Poland and Hungary, where conservatives and religious idiots gain more power every day by subverting the institutions of democracy and corrupting the media.

As long as we, the people of earth, do not manage to reign in the accumulation of mega-wealth in the hands of the few, as long as it is legal to become a billionaire, as long as a maximum permissible size of personal wealth exceeding 50 million € ( about 58 million $ as of today ) is NOT made a reality, the ultra-rich will continue to destabilise our world and local economys. NOBODY NEEDS BILLIONAIRES!!!

Just think of all the stuff and services that you can buy for 50 million €. Is that not enough ????? ( the amount of 50 million € is a size of wealth that I personaly can barely tolerate in the hands of a single individual. Of course all those tricks that allow a single person or small group to control even more wealth must be made illegal too and strictly enforced! )

I fear that before 2050 has dawned, our civilisation will have fallen down and most people will have turned towards facist regimes and mindsets just to protect themselves and their loved ones.

The cultural rollback is in full swing and rages across the globe. All our liberties are in danger and blood will once again flow freely through european citys and villages like it has done for millenia.

The period of peace in europe that we enjoyed after WWII thanks to the NATO and the balance between West and East is ended.

Yes it is indeed coming.

And yet, I have hope. Not for myself but for mankind on earth. We are a resilient species that has endured and faced and survived much even in the face of great adversity! I firmly believe that as long as the internet remains running the netgain in education and enlightment of our species will ultimately carry the day. It is just so sad to see and know, that before that can happen, so much more pain and bloodshed will transpire and so much potential for love and basic human decency will be lost.

What a waste.

I want to preface this by saying that I am not American, and as such don't have first hand experience of the inner workings of America

What Fel has said here is echoing things that I have been worried about for years, watching Trump and the GOP's shenanigans. I have been worried that there is a real risk of a civil war in the US, and that when it happens it's going to shred the global economy. One international border isn't enough distance from something like that. I don't think anywhere is enough distance to avoid the potential fallout.

The GOP has stopped playing ball with the system and has instead decided that they are okay with setting the ball, the field, and the other players on fire. The system was designed to withstand an individual messing with it, it was not designed to withstand an entire party deciding that the law is so much toilet paper, and common decency doesn't matter.

Not that the system didn't have some major issues to begin with, but that's another discussion.

(please forgive this post if it doesn't make sense It's 4:30 am)

@Fel 's post. I agree 100%. I pray that Biden wins. For personal reasons. I fear Trump losing. For National reasons.

I was just speaking with one of my co-workers the other day and said, "I'm pretty sure that the US is going to have a civil war very soon."

I can see the USA tearing itself apart over this mess. It's going to happen. It's just a matter of when. I don't see it being very far away. Definitely within my lifetime.

I hope I'm wrong. I hope we're all wrong and it never happens. I don't want my children to be subjected to this. I don't want to be subjected to this.

I think it needs to happen though. We will never break away from this divisiveness until it does.

imthejman85 wrote: Wed Nov 04, 2020 7:07 am I agree with this entire post, except on the completely different side. You think it's the Trump supporters, I think it's the Biden supporters and out spoken Far Left that are pulling Democrats more and more to the Left. I agree that a Civil War is coming, I agree the nation won't be around in 10 to 20 years.

You think it won't be long before the two factions are out there killing one another, but the Far Left has been at that for months Fel. You talk about Trump's racism and xenophobia, but I've seen just as many clips of the Left doing what you decry as I ever have Trump.

The Left called Trump xenophobic for banning travel to and from China and then complained he hasn't done enough to stop Covid, even when the Left was impeaching Trump for no reason. Over a month after the virus became big news world wide the Democrats were telling people it wasn't a big deal and Pelosi was telling people to go to Chinatown to celebrate the Chinese New Year.

You say the GOP has been cheating, lying, stealing, and enacting violence when they've been doing literally nothing beyond what the Dems have been doing the last 4 years.

I'm sorry but the Left does not have the moral high ground, and neither does the Right. Both sides are completely fucked, I don't foresee a reconciliation between the two sides, and meanwhile countries like China, Russia, and Iran are rubbing their hands together in collective glee.

@imthejman85 - I don't mean to be insulting or personally attack you, and if you take it that way I preemptively apologize. That is not the tone I'm attempting to strike. With that said, I can only wonder if you are only getting your news from Faux News or one of the other propagandist arms of the hard right Republican party. I pay attention to a large number of news sources, but even just a simple listening to Trump, in his own words, would show anyone with an open mind the would show the dishonesty, hatred, and greed that he represents.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of the far left, but they haven't even been operating in the same ballpark as far as undermining democracy and civil law, and spreading blatant disinformation and lies, and making personal, political, and even unethical legal attacks at those that aren't towing the party line. The %@#$%@#$ President of the United States got on TV this morning and demanded that states stop counting already legally cast ballots that wouldn't benefit him.

Trump has made it clear that he would love to be an autocratic despot with the power to simply jail, deport, or do god only knows what else to his dissenters. Even people that have been his closest political allies have walked away by job lot because of disagreements over unethical moves that he has made. And the Republicans (that according to what they say they are for should be morally disgusted by him) have held their nose at this transparent demagogue and been his biggest cheerleaders.

While there are elements (with squeaky wheel type volume) of the Democratic party that are as far left leaning as the Republicans have leaned right, the majority of the Democratic party has shifted to a more moderate stance. For the record, I'm a moderate, and I've voted for almost as many Republicans as Democrats over the years. Yesterday was the first time I've ever voted straight Democratic, as I am disgusted with all the Republicans that have allowed Trump to get so far out of hand and shit all over civil liberties and the constitution in the name of political expediency.

Bester wrote: Wed Nov 04, 2020 8:05 pm

imthejman85 wrote: Wed Nov 04, 2020 7:07 am I agree with this entire post, except on the completely different side. You think it's the Trump supporters, I think it's the Biden supporters and out spoken Far Left that are pulling Democrats more and more to the Left. I agree that a Civil War is coming, I agree the nation won't be around in 10 to 20 years.

You think it won't be long before the two factions are out there killing one another, but the Far Left has been at that for months Fel. You talk about Trump's racism and xenophobia, but I've seen just as many clips of the Left doing what you decry as I ever have Trump.

The Left called Trump xenophobic for banning travel to and from China and then complained he hasn't done enough to stop Covid, even when the Left was impeaching Trump for no reason. Over a month after the virus became big news world wide the Democrats were telling people it wasn't a big deal and Pelosi was telling people to go to Chinatown to celebrate the Chinese New Year.

You say the GOP has been cheating, lying, stealing, and enacting violence when they've been doing literally nothing beyond what the Dems have been doing the last 4 years.

I'm sorry but the Left does not have the moral high ground, and neither does the Right. Both sides are completely fucked, I don't foresee a reconciliation between the two sides, and meanwhile countries like China, Russia, and Iran are rubbing their hands together in collective glee.

@imthejman85 - I don't mean to be insulting or personally attack you, and if you take it that way I preemptively apologize. That is not the tone I'm attempting to strike. With that said, I can only wonder if you are only getting your news from Faux News or one of the other propagandist arms of the hard right Republican party. I pay attention to a large number of news sources, but even just a simple listening to Trump, in his own words, would show anyone with an open mind the would show the dishonesty, hatred, and greed that he represents.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of the far left, but they haven't even been operating in the same ballpark as far as undermining democracy and civil law, and spreading blatant disinformation and lies, and making personal, political, and even unethical legal attacks at those that aren't towing the party line. The %@#$%@#$ President of the United States got on TV this morning and demanded that states stop counting already legally cast ballots that wouldn't benefit him.

Trump has made it clear that he would love to be an autocratic despot with the power to simply jail, deport, or do god only knows what else to his dissenters. Even people that have been his closest political allies have walked away by job lot because of disagreements over unethical moves that he has made. And the Republicans (that according to what they say they are for should be morally disgusted by him) have held their nose at this transparent demagogue and been his biggest cheerleaders.

While there are elements (with squeaky wheel type volume) of the Democratic party that are as far left leaning as the Republicans have leaned right, the majority of the Democratic party has shifted to a more moderate stance. For the record, I'm a moderate, and I've voted for almost as many Republicans as Democrats over the years. Yesterday was the first time I've ever voted straight Democratic, as I am disgusted with all the Republicans that have allowed Trump to get so far out of hand and shit all over civil liberties and the constitution in the name of political expediency.

You'd be hard pressed to insult me, I spent nearly 15 years in the US military. We're not the easiest to insult, for the most part.

That being said, the fact you call it faux news literally made me laugh. I get my news from the Left, the right, what scant few if any news sources are in the middle, and whatever information they all agree on I find tends to be close to the truth. FOX is on the Right, and at least they admit that fact. CNN is blatantly Left wing but somehow try to pass themselves off as neutral.

You have an issue with Trump asking states to stop counting ballets, but I'm willing to bet you don't have an issue with states counting ballets even when they don't have a post marked date. Hell, NPR ran that story about Pennsylvania.

You see misinformation about all kinds of things from,both the Left and the Right, no one with half a brain can deny that it happens on both sides. My question would be, how is it the Right have done more to undermine the process when the Left were the ones going out of their way to change the rules for the election at the last minute?

Last, but not least since I need to get back to work, which do you think is more dangerous? The Far Left, that have been openly rioting and looting for the last 5-ish months and have the backing of both MSM and social media, or the maybe 5k total actual white supremacists in the country that basically everyone both Left and Right don't like? Because realistically, that's probably about how many actual Far Righters there are.

imthejman85 wrote: Wed Nov 04, 2020 11:03 pm Last, but not least since I need to get back to work, which do you think is more dangerous? The Far Left, that have been openly rioting and looting for the last 5-ish months and have the backing of both MSM and social media, or the maybe 5k total actual white supremacists in the country that basically everyone both Left and Right don't like? Because realistically, that's probably about how many actual Far Righters there are.

The DoJ lists white nationalist militias as the most prevalent and dangerous domestic terrorist groups in the United States. And there are far, far more than just 5,000 of them.

Sources:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... vXtLxMUqC-

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... iiokUPqLPq

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... ZdgQA0MDWm

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... dX5yJDMuNO

As someone who has lived all over the eastern United States, I can say by personal experience that racism is more pervasive and rampant than you would ever believe, because I have seen it with my own eyes.

The fact that so many Americans believe a significant portion of the Democratic party and it's base are "far left" is laughable. The US has shifted so far to the right that what many Americans consider "far left" is at most center left by other countries' standards, and most of the Democratic party is center right by the standards of most of the rest of the world.

Even people like Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Bernie Sanders are nowhere near "far left'

Also the widespread characterization of the mostly-peaceful protests that have been going on in response to events like George Floyd's death as "riots" is also laughable. There have been some instances of vandalism, but most of the violence has been done by right wing counterprotestors and the police attempting to suppress peaceful protest.

Andygal wrote: Thu Nov 05, 2020 12:36 am The fact that so many Americans believe a significant portion of the Democratic party and it's base are "far left" is laughable. The US has shifted so far to the right that what many Americans consider "far left" is at most center left by other countries' standards, and most of the Democratic party is center right by the standards of most of the rest of the world.

Even people like Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Bernie Sanders are nowhere near "far left'

Also the widespread characterization of the mostly-peaceful protests that have been going on in response to events like George Floyd's death as "riots" is also laughable. There have been some instances of vandalism, but most of the violence has been done by right wing counterprotestors and the police attempting to suppress peaceful protest.

My question would be what you consider far left then?

Fel wrote: Thu Nov 05, 2020 12:11 am

imthejman85 wrote: Wed Nov 04, 2020 11:03 pm Last, but not least since I need to get back to work, which do you think is more dangerous? The Far Left, that have been openly rioting and looting for the last 5-ish months and have the backing of both MSM and social media, or the maybe 5k total actual white supremacists in the country that basically everyone both Left and Right don't like? Because realistically, that's probably about how many actual Far Righters there are.

The DoJ lists white nationalist militias as the most prevalent and dangerous domestic terrorist groups in the United States. And there are far, far more than just 5,000 of them.

Sources:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... vXtLxMUqC-

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... iiokUPqLPq

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... ZdgQA0MDWm

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... dX5yJDMuNO

As someone who has lived all over the eastern United States, I can say by personal experience that racism is more pervasive and rampant than you would ever believe, because I have seen it with my own eyes.

I've lived across the entire South, some of the East, and a fair chunk of the Midwest. I've also been to about 20 countries across three continents. The US isn't even in the top 5 as far as racism is concerned from my personal experience.

As far as the links you just provided Fel, you could toss up the SPLC for all I care, seeing as according to them there are literally 0 hate crimes or hate groups on the Left, despite me seeing both first hand. The big tech giants, social media, and most MSM all lean Left, there is no accountability for the Left. When you have people saying a person literally can't be racist simply because of their race, I'm sorry but I can and will call BS.

Anyways, I'm gonna shut up because I get the feeling most ppl on here lean Left or center Left and I'm not gonna get into a fight with people who won't change their minds, much like I won't. I'll just pray that this whole thing doesn't burn to the ground around my kids ears in the next 10 years. Either that or this country finally gets sick of each other and we draw up some new borders and spilt this whole place in 2.

From the land down under, I wish you all well and no civil wars for any of you. Cause If you guys do it, I just know we will not be far behind.

imthejman85 wrote: Wed Nov 04, 2020 11:03 pm

Bester wrote: Wed Nov 04, 2020 8:05 pm

imthejman85 wrote: Wed Nov 04, 2020 7:07 am ...

...

You'd be hard pressed to insult me, I spent nearly 15 years in the US military. We're not the easiest to insult, for the most part.

That being said, the fact you call it faux news literally made me laugh. I get my news from the Left, the right, what scant few if any news sources are in the middle, and whatever information they all agree on I find tends to be close to the truth. FOX is on the Right, and at least they admit that fact. CNN is blatantly Left wing but somehow try to pass themselves off as neutral.

You have an issue with Trump asking states to stop counting ballets, but I'm willing to bet you don't have an issue with states counting ballets even when they don't have a post marked date. Hell, NPR ran that story about Pennsylvania.

You see misinformation about all kinds of things from,both the Left and the Right, no one with half a brain can deny that it happens on both sides. My question would be, how is it the Right have done more to undermine the process when the Left were the ones going out of their way to change the rules for the election at the last minute?

Last, but not least since I need to get back to work, which do you think is more dangerous? The Far Left, that have been openly rioting and looting for the last 5-ish months and have the backing of both MSM and social media, or the maybe 5k total actual white supremacists in the country that basically everyone both Left and Right don't like? Because realistically, that's probably about how many actual Far Righters there are.

Some people become very defensive when talking politics. I was just wanting to clarify the line between disagreeing and attacking, and that I firmly intend this on the side of the former. I don't know you, and have nothing against you regardless of disagreeing with your political views, so I don't want there to be any misunderstanding or misinterpreted escalation.

I won't disagree that all of the news channels have their leanings, that is fairly obvious.

Fox barely even pretends to be "fair and balanced," despite their tagline, and fairly blatantly serves as the propaganda arm of the Republican party. The few voices that provide anything other than a far right tone, like Shepard Smith, are quickly shunned, made unwelcome, and if necessary forced out in fairly short order. MSNBC is painfully partisan left, and no pretending otherwise. CNN leans to the left, but seems to at least make an attempt at balance. All three, as you said, have to taken with a grain of salt, for tone if nothing else, but it doesn't take much analysis to see which ones swing waaaay further out. Both Fox and MSNBC are echo chambers for their particular political orientation, and they rarely allow facts or logic to penetrate to the viewers wanting validation for what they want to hear.

I'm not sure of what NPR story you are talking about, but you have the facts wrong about Pennsylvania (I work there, though I live and vote in NJ, so I'm somewhat familiar with the situation). The changes that Pennsylvania made do require ballots to be post-marked. The only change made (and enough time before the that the issue litigated to the Supreme Court TWICE), is that instead of ballots having to be received by Nov 3 (election day), they will accept ballots that are postmarked by Nov 3 and received by Nov 10. That change was made because of the Covid, the change to such heavy mail in voting, and concerns about the post office being able to deliver ballots in proper time (which was made more of a concern by Trump deliberately and intentionally sabotaging the postal service to create problems with mail in ballots being delivered in time, but that is another topic). As I said, the issue has been litigated up to the Supreme Court twice and been turned down for additional review by the Supremes. As an aside, because PA knew it would be controversial, they are deliberately quarantining votes that are received after Nov 3 so that if the legal precedent changes they can unwind the invalidated votes with minimal disruption. Ballots without a post date on or before Nov 3rd will not be accepted, so I don't know where that bit about them accepting ballots that don't have post marks came from.

I do have an issue with the person holding the highest office in the land demanding that legally cast votes are tossed aside because they won't help his cause (as, by the way, he does with any organization, department, function or individual that says anything contradicting his viewpoint on anything, down to repercussions to the NOAA for pointing that his hurricane prediction skills were...not based on science). So, careful and considered emergency changes to the law to address a unique situation with the pandemic that has been tested legally, or the narcissistic President throwing a hissy fit and trying his damnedest to undermine the election and people's constitutional right to have their votes counted? Yeah, I'm going to go with the former.

Also, living in an area that has had riots lately (I grabbed dinner on the way home from work the other day, and the fast food place had been smashed by the rioters the night before!), I don't know where you get the idea that the violent riots are being supported by the left, social media, the "MSM" or anyone else? Peaceful protests, sure, but I have not heard the first word from ANYONE supporting violence or rioting. I have heard the President refusing to denounce white supremacists and only eventually, and with obvious reluctance, halfheartedly renounce them. I have heard from family in other states of people swarming the gun stores to buy more guns and ammo so they will be ready for what happens if Biden wins the election (read into that what you will). I have seen the huge numbers of people that are willing to fight or shoot people that ask them to wear a mask in stores, because the president is urging them on. I have heard the constant repudiation of common sense, science, and even things as simple as basic civility that would have been unthinkable a few years ago. I have seen the constant swarm of hypocrisy from the right on everything from the obvious Supreme Court fights, to them not having any issue with making election changes in Red States, but making huge deals of the same changes happening in battleground states.

I have seen the family and close associates of Reagan say that he would be horrified by what the republican party has become. I have seen the widow of a former republican presidential candidate say that she is going to vote for Biden because she can't vote for Trump.

All my adult life I've described myself as a slightly left-leaning moderate or independent. Looking back on this, I've suddenly realized I can't do that anymore. Until the Republican party has cleansed itself of the hate, hypocrisy, and ignorance it has gone out of its way to bath itself in for the past decade, I can't again say that I would vote for a republican candidate. I hope to eventually be able to call myself an independent again, but as it stands, I guess I'm a democrat, now. Sad days.

Andygal wrote: Thu Nov 05, 2020 12:36 amThe fact that so many Americans believe a significant portion of the Democratic party and it's base are "far left" is laughable. The US has shifted so far to the right that what many Americans consider "far left" is at most center left by other countries' standards, and most of the Democratic party is center right by the standards of most of the rest of the world.

The right/left axis of the United States vs the rest of the world has always been horribly broken because it had a very different axis it oriented along. Largely because the American system did not start from a Monarchist foundation.

https://www.history.com/news/how-did-th ... -originate

In the proper historical context:
"right wing" = Monarchist
"left wing" = Anti-Monarchist

The term didn't even really enter the American lexicon until the start of the 20th Century, and probably didn't really get popularized until after the 1930's by which points things had been "contaminated" by the "right wing Nazis" and the "left wing Communists" and people trying to hammer a square peg into a round hole with a Sherman Tank.

More amusingly, Republicans have traditionally sat to the left of the presiding officer of both the Senate and the House, while Democrats has traditionally sat to the right of said presiding officer, so they're technically mislabeled, and have been probably for as long as the term has been in use in the United States.

I guess an argument could be made that the American Right would be Federalists (those in favor of Federal Power) are right wing and Anti-Federalists (those in favor of devolving power to the States) are left wing, but considering the Democrats keep pushing for expanding Federal Power, and the Republicans are now the ones pushing for expanding state-level power while reducing Federal powers, that still inverts the paradigm. Unless you're talking about Federalism as a philosophy of governance, in which case the Republicans re-assume the mantle of being the Right-Wing Federalists, while the Democrats get to be the left-wing Anti-Federalists once more.

(There is a difference between nationalizing things in the name of Federal Authority and creating federal systems under the guidance of Federalism. It's splitting a fine hair, but it is one that can be split. The DNC at the national level has a hard time viewing states as anything but sub-servient to the Federal Government--which by definition makes the governance not Federalist in nature. In Federalism, a state is supposed to be an equal to the federal entity, not a client, or a servant)

But that's part of a bigger problems, "words mean things" but in true Orwellian fashion, many very important, and arguably foundational words have acquired "additional usages" over the past 240 years, and many of those newer usages stand at odds with the original usage.

Nationality is a reference to race or even ethnicity for a great many nations, and for them "nationalism" becomes an outgrowth of nationality, which logically makes a "nationalist" a racist. Except you then have countries like the United States where "American" as a race makes no sense to anybody with more than two brain cells to rub together. "American" instead becomes more of an idea/frame of mind, so while an "American Nationalist" could be a Nazi looking to smash somebody's face in for not being white, it could just as easily be someone placing their nation's needs and interests first. (As ambiguous as that can be to define) Language sucks some times.

Which is also how you can end up with a group of people who claim to be Federalists can now be working to try to tear apart parts of the Federal Government while others are trying to give the Federal Government more power. You'd think the person trying to grow the Federal government would be going for the "Federalist" label?

But then, we live in an age where people run around in black block calling people Nazi's and beating them senseless, acting much like the brownshirts of the Nazi party, but don't mind that. They say they're anti-fascists, so their acting exactly like the fascists of 1932 Germany is merely a coincidence. (Of course, they'd be party right, 1932 Germany did have Anti-Fascists as well, and they were not quite as bad as the brownshirts in general, although they were every bit as violent... They also were members of Germany's Communist Party and vehemently anti-Liberal as well. The "Anti-Fa" of 1932/33 Germany was a self-declared enemy of Liberal Democracy as well, not just the Nazis)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifaschistische_Aktion

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But getting back on track, from the Federal Government <-> State Government tug of war that goes on in regards to Federalism with regards to the United States. Things then move into the authoritarian <-> anti-authoritarian(anarchy) side of things. Where Libertarians in the US tend to side heavily in favor of the anarchy option, but have their own right/left split regarding other issues. Those dam Libertarians, always ruining Libertarianism for the other Libertarians.

I'd also be inclined to say there is a moral-authoritarian axis that runs through much of this stuff, and that one at present has the Democrats pegging the meter on Authoritarian Moralism at this moment in time, arguably in more terrifying(to more people) ways than Religious Conservative Republicans ever achieved in the 1980's and 1990's, or the HUAC in the 1950's. Although the Temperance Movement leading to prohibition is in a league of its own. The abolitionists managing to provoke the South into the Civil War is an entirely different(but justifiable) level.

Even people like Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Bernie Sanders are nowhere near "far left'

Just keep hammering that square peg into that round hole, you'll get it in there some day. If they were being measured against the spectrum that applies to the rest of the world, you'd be right. But that spectrum doesn't work here.

Also the widespread characterization of the mostly-peaceful protests that have been going on in response to events like George Floyd's death as "riots" is also laughable.

So, those "mostly peaceful protests" where only 7% of them have turned into riots resulting in injuries and significant damage to private and public property

Where those protesters were taking to the street to protest on behalf of people who represent less than 0.01% of all police interactions involving minorities in this country?

Tell me how that logically works? I'd really like to know. By that logic Police interactions "are mostly fine" and there is no need to protest about police malfeasance.

There have been some instances of vandalism, but most of the violence has been done by right wing counterprotestors and the police attempting to suppress peaceful protest.

Yes, "false flags" did happen with some right winger, but really "and the police attempting to suppress the peaceful protest" one? I've seen one of those claims completely debunked(the auto-zone film very early on in the George Floyd riots -- The officer that the crowd identified/outed? He was recorded on time-stamped security camera footage several miles away at the time that event took place.) but hey, the crowd says he was at Auto Zone, so that must be where he was.) I've also heard claims from credible sources about police instigators, so I won't deny such things have happened. But you need to be very careful about placing yourself in a rabbit hole where any accusation made against "your team" can immediately be considered as "proof against the other side" acting nefariously because it is just so inconceivable that someone on "your team" would do something like that.

Especially as going by some reporting that's out there, AntiFa has every intention of bringing the Revolution to the streets of America soon enough, and are absolutely eager to get to work doing exactly that under a Biden Presidency. It should be interesting to see how the Corporate DNC leadership tries to handle a communist insurrection where many of the participants are Democratic voters. Of course, I guess they can hope that AntiFa manages to find some of those Libertarian Boogaloo Bois and really kick off something where the Biden Admin can then blame everything on "violent right wing extremists."

At least with a Republican controlled senate(maybe?), there should be at least some limits on just how bananas the Democrats can go in their use of Federal Power. Some of what Trump did was disturbing enough, and that was with the Media screaming "4th Reich incoming" at every move he made. I'm terrified of what happens when the Media starts cheerleading when the Biden Admin takes it even further.

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edit: for some additional information since George Orwell was mentioned:
George Orwell "signed up to fight with the militia of a Spanish Marxist party, via the British Independent Labour Party. " in other words: He was fighting alongside AntiFa and its partners in the Spanish Civil War.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/h ... 24491.html

Except What that Historian fails to (fully) point out is that by Orwell's own words, his disillusionment with Socialism and Communism came about as a direct result of his experiences during his time in Spain. And rather directly inspired his later writings of Animal Farm and 1984.

So in a way, Animal Farm is a story about AntiFa.

Bester wrote: Thu Nov 05, 2020 4:19 amPeaceful protests, sure, but I have not heard the first word from ANYONE supporting violence or rioting.

Kamala Harris and many Biden campaign staffers helped raise funds for and bail out people arrested for rioting. Okay, not an outright endorsement, but really?

I have heard the President refusing to denounce white supremacists and only eventually, and with obvious reluctance, halfheartedly renounce them.

Here, this video might help you discover a few dozen occasions where he's done so:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bd0cMmBvqWc

As to the rest of it, I'm not quoting it because it's generally bad form to do so and only attach an "I agree" or "I can support that fully." There are some minor details here and there I could get technical over, but the sentiment and spirit in which it is written is something I can support.

I hadn't heard of that and I that a little trouble believing that, so I did some quick searches. It seems to be technically true, but out of context. They gave support, including some staffers that donated, to the MFF (Minnesota Freedom Fund), an organization that helps individuals pay for bail when they cannot, typically for relatively small crimes. Some investigation showed that a few cases that MFF intervened and bailed out people for were for violent offenders, particularly after they got the windfall of $20M of donations and expanded their reach. The Biden campaign support was obviously intended for people that were arrested by police for peaceful protests, but just as obviously they didn't do a good job vetting the organization (something that should have been given a lot more care). [edit - I should also point out that I'm not a huge fan of Biden or Harris, disagree with them politically on many points, and my support for them is primarily based on opposition to Trump]

I still stand by the point that they haven't given knowing verbal or other support for rioters, and what material support got to rioters or violent offenders happened through a bit of negligence.

Yes, of course he has when he has been cornered and called out and browbeat over it. But When caught in a situation where his advisors haven't made a concerted effort to twist his arm, he very painfully avoids saying anything disparaging about these group, let alone denouncing them. I skimmed through that video and almost all of the denunciations have been on essentially apology tours over this issue. It's happened too many times to call it a lapse or misunderstanding now, and there have been many times where he has bordered on openly supporting them (for instance, after the death in Charlottesville a couple of years ago).