Revolution Chapter 9 (Spoilers)

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SoronelHaetir
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Re: Revolution Chapter 9 (Spoilers)

Post by SoronelHaetir » Mon Nov 18, 2019 6:34 pm

Unless he's willing to cure himself of the Faeyphobia I don't see Kevin Ball being a good chance for recruitment. Right now he manages to live his life by avoiding Faey as much as possible, even the thought of having a Faey manager was too much for him to deal with. I don't see Karis being a good match for such a person.

Tanika was similarly afflicted but after waking up as a telepath she pretty much cured herself.

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Re: Revolution Chapter 9 (Spoilers)

Post by jeffreyC » Mon Nov 18, 2019 9:32 pm

Wondering how effective as a biohazard quarantine the lockdown of that ward at FMS HQ is?
It can keep out Kimdori after all.
The idea occurred to me that it would be poetic justice if the virus in their facility mutated into something deadly and the FMS crew that created it were the only victims.

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Re: Revolution Chapter 9 (Spoilers)

Post by Not a ID » Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:19 am

The Imperial version isn't mutating like the Karrine version is. So it is unlikely that the FMS secret lab was hit by a killer strain. Besides, the head of the FMS seems to be actively engaged in things, from the safety of said lab, so they don't seem to be dying.

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Re: Revolution Chapter 9 (Spoilers)

Post by GotToGo » Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:53 pm

Not a ID wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:19 am
The Imperial version isn't mutating like the Karrine version is. So it is unlikely that the FMS secret lab was hit by a killer strain. Besides, the head of the FMS seems to be actively engaged in things, from the safety of said lab, so they don't seem to be dying.
The way I read this tale that the FMS secret lab is secure and filter, we have no knowledge nor hints of what is going on there or even that they have been infected.

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Re: Revolution Chapter 9 (Spoilers)

Post by GotToGo » Wed Nov 20, 2019 12:06 am

kyli wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 11:53 pm
GotToGo wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 11:16 pm
B. Bring Faey males on par with the females?
Faey Generations females are stronger on average then males. I do wonder if Terrans will be the same though or if the average power will be equal across gender lines.
I'm not sure I agree! Faey females have always ruled because they had stronger talents and were much more aggressive than the males. On Dahnai's husband shows near equal talents with her as a Generation, just differences. Let's us see how the Tale plays out.

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Re: Revolution Chapter 9 (Spoilers)

Post by Not a ID » Wed Nov 20, 2019 2:33 am

GotToGo wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:53 pm
Not a ID wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:19 am
The Imperial version isn't mutating like the Karrine version is. So it is unlikely that the FMS secret lab was hit by a killer strain. Besides, the head of the FMS seems to be actively engaged in things, from the safety of said lab, so they don't seem to be dying.
The way I read this tale that the FMS secret lab is secure and filter, we have no knowledge nor hints of what is going on there or even that they have been infected.
As all evidence is pointing to the FMS being the source of the virus in the first place. I'd be highly surprised if they're NOT infected.

Either they were the initial point of the outbreak(someone from the lab accidentally infected a FMS worker who in turn infected the Palace), or they deliberately released it on the population at large. As they're the source for the retrovirus, it would be really strange if they didn't infect themselves after it was proven to be very safe.
GotToGo wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 12:06 am
I'm not sure I agree! Faey females have always ruled because they had stronger talents and were much more aggressive than the males. On Dahnai's husband shows near equal talents with her as a Generation, just differences. Let's us see how the Tale plays out.
The strongest Generations on Karis continue to be female. And with more of them around, the number of women ranked as stronger than the strongest male telepath is likely to become much longer.

The power disparity between genders may be less pronounced between genders for the Generations, but it appears to still exist.

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Re: Revolution Chapter 9 (Spoilers)

Post by SoronelHaetir » Wed Nov 20, 2019 7:22 am

I really don't understand Jason's insistence upon long-term quarantine, there are generations all over the place that he has no sway over, it seems like any of those others are just as good a target as Karis. I can understand a short-term quarantine (until the Karis strain peters out) due to the specific danger of that strain but that is due to the virus itself and not danger to house members that is any greater than dangers faced by anyone else.

Also, am I the only one who thinks Jason is more than a bit neurotic blaming himself for any of this? Exactly how was he to go about preventing any of it? I can almost understand his sense of guilt over the deliberate infection choice but even that seems a bit excessive given how I question the actual usefulness of long-term quarantine of Karis.

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Re: Revolution Chapter 9 (Spoilers)

Post by Not a ID » Wed Nov 20, 2019 8:13 pm

SoronelHaetir wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 7:22 am
I really don't understand Jason's insistence upon long-term quarantine, there are generations all over the place that he has no sway over, it seems like any of those others are just as good a target as Karis. I can understand a short-term quarantine (until the Karis strain peters out) due to the specific danger of that strain but that is due to the virus itself and not danger to house members that is any greater than dangers faced by anyone else.
He's stuck thinking in an older thought-paradigm, and hasn't fully adjusted to the new reality, only a few days have elapsed story-wise.

The outbreak started on the 12th of August, Earth wasn't confirmed to be infected until the 14th, and Chapter 9 finished on the 18th. Jason has had 6 days to process things, while simultaneously putting out numerous associated fires and making other plans for protecting those he is responsible for. While we have had Chapter 8 available on 3rd of this month, and Chapter 9 since the 12th.

We're also not deeply invested into the idea of keeping the Generations Program secret and not letting (parts of) it out "into the wild" like Jason is. Which brings us back to Jason is stuck in his old thought-paradigm and hasn't broken free of it yet. Give it time, Zaa or someone else(Yila Trefani seems a very possible option) will likely break him out of it before the quarantine is lifted, which still remains more than 45 days away at this point.

I think you also missed that Jason has already begun putting measures in place to protect Earth going forward, although he already has conceded Earth will remain otherwise open.
Plans had already been made to prevent any Faey or Terrans on Terra from “mysteriously disappearing.” Jason was going to build a biogenic planetary sensor network at Terra capable of tracking Generations by their very presence, the biogenic units sensing them the same way Generations could sense one another, and a system was being worked up by Jrz’kii that would ensure that a Generation wasn’t smuggled off Terra by matching passenger manifests with ship passengers. To force ships to go through those checkpoints, he was going to have a planetary shield installed on Terra, which would force all ships to enter and exit the planet using established gates. Those gates would become the chokepoint preventing the abduction Terrans for nefarious purposes. Terra would remain a neutral and open planet, it would just have much more stringent inspection protocols for anyone leaving the planet.
Of course, the design flaw with the above is that only works with respect to living Generations. Dead bodies, body parts, or simple samples can still slip through. Which isn't to mention the possibility of some "black research" simply being carried out on Earth itself, and smuggling the data (and the occasional sample) out instead. Throw in the matter that any Imperium world could be used for the same things, and you have a big headache to manage.
----

He still needs to address to Imperium side of things, and for that, he's going to need to speak to the Siaan so they understand what they've just become part of.

The Karis situation is a little more unique, as it seems Earth did not get the Karis version via Jason, so only Humans and Faey are impacted on Earth. Karis is the only place where non-human/non-Faey Generations are present, which makes those people particularly unique and valuable to others at this time.

The bigger problem with regards to Karis is that would be where you have the "other factor" in play. Jason is presumably going to allow "qualified" persons to use the biogenic Gestalts and associated equipment. The Biogenic hardware is where the real risks exist. That Biogenic hardware is also a large part of the concern about the Generation population exploding like it did. Those biogenic crystals are basically crystallized forms of the virus that created the Generations. If you have access to the viral component of the Generations DNA, you have most of what you need to create a biogenic crystal and associated systems.

Which is why I'm highly certain that the resonant telepathic technology Fel had a recent inter-galactic contact mention is going to be a big thing in the coming years. They're going to want a means of distracting others away from biogenics specifically, and that just may fit the bill. As the person they spoke with seemed to believe there was in fact a range limitation suggests there could in fact be one for that tech. If that tech is able to cover even as little as 100 lightyears at a time, it becomes an option for also helping the various empires get out of the strangle-hold the Karrines have on real-time long distance communications, while also potentially reducing the exposure House Karrine has on their biogenic systems, allowing many of them to be pulled back.

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Re: Revolution Chapter 9 (Spoilers)

Post by GotToGo » Wed Nov 20, 2019 8:44 pm

SoronelHaetir wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 7:22 am
Also, am I the only one who thinks Jason is more than a bit neurotic blaming himself for any of this? Exactly how was he to go about preventing any of it? I can almost understand his sense of guilt over the deliberate infection choice but even that seems a bit excessive given how I question the actual usefulness of long-term quarantine of Karis.
I believe this excerpt from Chapter 9 answers much of your statement:

'There was another part of the equation that he felt nearly as sacred as their freedom…their free will. To order the virus to be allowed to spread would take away the right of his people to choose, choose who they wanted to be, what they wanted to be. The right of free will was cherished by Jason and most of the house, because it was built entirely on that free will. Every person that was here was here because they wanted to be here. They had chosen the House of Karinne, and Jason felt that it would violate the trust those people placed in him when they came here to take the freedom to choose away from them.'

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Re: Revolution Chapter 9 (Spoilers)

Post by Chasm » Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:45 pm

Not a ID wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 8:13 pm
The Karis situation is a little more unique, as it seems Earth did not get the Karis version via Jason, so only Humans and Faey are impacted on Earth. Karis is the only place where non-human/non-Faey Generations are present, which makes those people particularly unique and valuable to others at this time.
That is the real secret left. A secret that gets out the very second a new Generation from the Empire gets close to a race on Karris that is not supposed to have Generations. Say at the Summer Palace or on Korsigi if the yard is still accessible to others.

IIRC basically every population that can get infected by the FMS strain got infected.
Can't remember if it also hit other humanoid races. For all those that got it there is no reason to look, they already have it. For other races there is -right now- no imperative to look, it does not work on them.
There is not much sense in kidnapping Karrines or Humans if you can just grab a Faey to get the same data. Much more opportunities and less protected too.

The other races though, that will be much more interesting real soon...
Once the news gets out everyone will just assume that every single person that was on Karris during the outbreak is a Generation.

Basically it turns to
If you are Faey or Human you can leave the planet. Nothing new to find out if they get you.
If you are any other race you can't leave. Everyone will think that you are a Generation and too many will try to find out what makes you tick.

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Re: Revolution Chapter 9 (Spoilers)

Post by kyli » Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:40 pm

Not a ID wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 8:13 pm

Which is why I'm highly certain that the resonant telepathic technology Fel had a recent inter-galactic contact mention is going to be a big thing in the coming years. They're going to want a means of distracting others away from biogenics specifically, and that just may fit the bill. As the person they spoke with seemed to believe there was in fact a range limitation suggests there could in fact be one for that tech. If that tech is able to cover even as little as 100 lightyears at a time, it becomes an option for also helping the various empires get out of the strangle-hold the Karrines have on real-time long distance communications, while also potentially reducing the exposure House Karrine has on their biogenic systems, allowing many of them to be pulled back.
The aliens actually assumed the Karinnes would have the reach the their galaxy. Maybe range isn't an issue for them. They just saw that it was for the Karinne version. (I don't believe this but it is a possibility.) And the Karinnes do have a top range. They set up intergalactic booster stations and don't explore beyond that until they got communications up. They just let those aliens believe they were out of range.
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Re: Revolution Chapter 9 (Spoilers)

Post by Not a ID » Thu Nov 21, 2019 1:03 am

Chasm wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:45 pm
Not a ID wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 8:13 pm
The Karis situation is a little more unique, as it seems Earth did not get the Karis version via Jason, so only Humans and Faey are impacted on Earth. Karis is the only place where non-human/non-Faey Generations are present, which makes those people particularly unique and valuable to others at this time.
That is the real secret left. A secret that gets out the very second a new Generation from the Empire gets close to a race on Karris that is not supposed to have Generations. Say at the Summer Palace or on Korsigi if the yard is still accessible to others.
That isn't much of a secret either, as the Confederacy Council knows, even if the general population doesn't. There are two sitting Confed leaders on Karis who have undergone the transition, and one former one as well. That secret wasn't very secret from the onset. They might be able to hold back on letting it out that essentially everyone on Karis is a Generation without respect to species, but the Confederacy knows enough(based on what we know) to know that most races on Karis have Generation variants now. So anyone who is identified as having lived on Karis is probably going to be suspected of being a Generation going forward.
IIRC basically every population that can get infected by the FMS strain got infected.
The FMS strain only infects Faey and Humans. (As we know they're essentially the same Species)

The "Karis Strain" (via Jason) is the one that started out by being able to infect 10 humanoid races, before eventually infecting every sentient race except one that was present on Karis.
Can't remember if it also hit other humanoid races. For all those that got it there is no reason to look, they already have it. For other races there is -right now- no imperative to look, it does not work on them.
There is not much sense in kidnapping Karrines or Humans if you can just grab a Faey to get the same data. Much more opportunities and less protected too.
Basically every sentient race on Karis, save for the shamans and the 2% who opted out in time(assuming they stick to being opted out) is going to be a Generation. That is unique to Karis and the KMS/KES ships which were infected. The Kimdori have their work cut out for them in trying to prevent "diplomatic envoys" and other assorted parties from trying to capture samples of the FMS strain of the virus to see how they can adapt it for their own race. As Jason's measures will likely only work on detecting sentient beings.
The other races though, that will be much more interesting real soon...
Once the news gets out everyone will just assume that every single person that was on Karris during the outbreak is a Generation.
Given most of them will likely figure it out on their own, assuming they're not outright told, that the outbreak was engineered by the FMS. They'll know enough to know it was created by the FMS using genetic samples they'd previously obtained from Generations among the Faey population(and we know Dahnai's family in particular). So while they know such a program may take a very long time to bear fruit, the FMS has proven it is possible to achieve. And as has been said outright in prior parts of the Subjugation series, once someone proves it can be done, others will follow suit.
Basically it turns to
If you are Faey or Human you can leave the planet. Nothing new to find out if they get you.
If you are any other race you can't leave. Everyone will think that you are a Generation and too many will try to find out what makes you tick.
Not so, Faey and Humans remain restricted too, as only the Karrines know the full extent of Generation(+ Biogenic) capabilities, and where the line exists between their tech and their ability, or the combination of the two. The Karrines have previously demonstrated Generations are not to be trifled with, and are huge boon to those who have Generations available to them.

Jason's reasons to be paranoid about Generations being targeted for nefarious acts still remains just as valid now as it was 10 years earlier. The only thing that has changed is the Imperium is no longer seeking the secrets of their DNA, now they're down to pursuit of the technology. Everybody else still wants both, and now they have 220 billion additional targets for getting DNA.

Beyond that, you're right as many of the other nations/empires have former citizens living on Karis that they can be reasonably certain of possibly being a Generation. So trying to lure them off of Karis to find out for sure is likely to be on the agenda of a few. As that potentially gets them a before and after template to work with as well, assuming they still retain detailed medical records for those persons(or those persons still have family outside of Karrine territory they can reference against, or they have deceased family members whose remains weren't destroyed).

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Re: Revolution Chapter 9 (Spoilers)

Post by Not a ID » Thu Nov 21, 2019 1:26 am

kyli wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:40 pm
Not a ID wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 8:13 pm

Which is why I'm highly certain that the resonant telepathic technology Fel had a recent inter-galactic contact mention is going to be a big thing in the coming years. They're going to want a means of distracting others away from biogenics specifically, and that just may fit the bill. As the person they spoke with seemed to believe there was in fact a range limitation suggests there could in fact be one for that tech. If that tech is able to cover even as little as 100 lightyears at a time, it becomes an option for also helping the various empires get out of the strangle-hold the Karrines have on real-time long distance communications, while also potentially reducing the exposure House Karrine has on their biogenic systems, allowing many of them to be pulled back.
The aliens actually assumed the Karinnes would have the reach the their galaxy. Maybe range isn't an issue for them. They just saw that it was for the Karinne version. (I don't believe this but it is a possibility.) And the Karinnes do have a top range. They set up intergalactic booster stations and don't explore beyond that until they got communications up. They just let those aliens believe they were out of range.
True enough, he did seem to assume they'd have range, which suggests the range of their system is Galactic+ in nature(so based on the fib he was told, he would have correctly guessed they came from a very considerable distance away). As such, so long as there is "bandwidth" available to their tech, as long as you're only going for intra-galactic comms, you'd only need to build comm stations for the respective systems you have populations in. So no comm relay stuck "in the middle of nowhere" within Galactic space to serve as a communications bridge between far flung systems/settlements.

Assuming that is valid, and I'm inclined to suspect it is. That goes back to it being a tech Jason is likely to want to give out to the Confederation members(assuming it can be reproduced at their tech level) if only to ease resentment towards his House. As it allows them to take back control of their own respective communication grids. Which was a gripe from a number of the groups that left the Confederation. That it also would be very useful to all the newly created Generations and deflect attention away from Biogenics is simply a side-benefit.

At least until the longer-term impacts of that tech are felt for the races that are not Faey or Human, IMO. Everybody is equal so long as everybody(except a small number of Generations on Karis) is reliant on implants for accessing things. But as soon as telepaths gain an access advantage, and powerful (Generation) telepaths potentially gain even more of one(more bandwidth) things are likely to go a bit "sideways" in several societies IMO.

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Re: Revolution Chapter 9 (Spoilers)

Post by kyli » Thu Nov 21, 2019 8:02 am

The real question about the resonant telepathic technology is if it can boost a persons talent. If not, there is no reason to not give it to the Confederation. It would let them handle their own communications instead of going through the Karinnes biogenic network. Of course, it won't stop the rest of the Confederation from still wanting to get their hands on biogenics. Real time communication is nice, but the Karinnes are giving them access to that already. They want the talent boost just as much or more.

I think I've previously speculated about biogenics boosting a Generation Dreamers ability and if it could be boosted. The hypothetical has become reality and we should hopefully get that answers soon.
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Re: Revolution Chapter 9 (Spoilers)

Post by Not a ID » Thu Nov 21, 2019 1:33 pm

kyli wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 8:02 am
The real question about the resonant telepathic technology is if it can boost a persons talent. If not, there is no reason to not give it to the Confederation. It would let them handle their own communications instead of going through the Karinnes biogenic network. Of course, it won't stop the rest of the Confederation from still wanting to get their hands on biogenics. Real time communication is nice, but the Karinnes are giving them access to that already. They want the talent boost just as much or more.
You're neglecting two things here. The Resonant tech allows a telepath to interact with machines without need for an implant. So while non-telepaths have to wait until adulthood to have a gestalt implant to enjoy a lot of what technology offers(in particular merges). The telepath will be able to enjoy that tech shortly after their talent expresses and they've obtained the requisite training. The second issue is "bandwidth" the different options offer.

So if you express early enough, in one example, you could be a 6 year old telepath and playing Citadel Online, or you can be a non-telepath and have to wait until you are 18 to get the implant. Prior to the retrovirus being released, the only people under 18 playing CO were the children of Generations. Now the population of Generation children has increased by several billion, but that's a species wide thing for Earth and the Imperium, and planet-wide for Karis.

But once you move into the resonant tech, you now have Generations and Telepaths being able to access that from childhood,while the non-telepaths in the population have to wait for Adulthood. Most races in the Confederation are only minority telepathic(less than 50%, often much less than 50%).

Then you throw in the additional variables of "What kind of 'bandwidth' does the Resonant tech have compared to the implant?" Jason himself has previously commented on how the biogenic commune merge is far superior than the one available through the implants, although the implants are getting very good as well(with the biogenic-augmented implant being the best of the implants, but still not as good as Generation commune).

It's possible, and I'd probably even say likely, that the resonant tech is going to improve the quality/bandwidth of the biogenic commune even further, and that will likely ripple down to the others as well. But you'll be moving from
"Good" being the existing Confed Implant,
"better" being the Karrine (Biogenic gestalt) implant,
and "best" being Generation Commune with biogenics

to the order of precedence becoming:
"Worst" being existing Confed implant tech.
"Fair" being Confed implant tech w/Resonant gestalt.
"Good" being Telepathic merge w/Resonant Tech or Implant with Biogenic Gestalt
"Better" being Generation merge w/Resonant Tech
"Best" being Generation merge w/ Biogenic+Resonant tech.

Now also throw in the little detail Jason has brought up because of Kevin Ball and the response times typically expected from non-telepaths vs telepaths. Let us also revisit that whole being able to access things as children which can help improve those response times, while non-telepaths have to wait until they're adults... It's basically a setup to create a telepath master-class for the races that are not completely telepathic. The only question will be if the implants can close the gap enough to make it less of an issue, but that still doesn't address the advantage the Telepaths gain from obtaining earlier access to the stuff.

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