Conviction, chapter 4 [spoilers]

[Fel]

I usually don't start a spoiler thread, but I may as well put up a forum topic explaining the edits, since they touch on chapter 4. The full explanation of the "science" below is in inception 13, if you're interested.

The reason why current jump engines can't cross between Andromeda and the Milky Way quickly (which would be about 60 days) is because of a hyperspace phenomenon called the Flat Space Effect. As most know, space is actually curved, and that curvature can be increased by gravity wells, including the galactic gravity well. Now, space outside a gravity well lacks this curvature, is much "flatter," so it is known as flat space. Why this matters is because the upper dimensions of hyperspace are MUCH more affected by gravity wells, so when that effect isn't there, it effectively makes distances much greater IN HYPERSPACE when one crosses through flat space. Distances inside a gravity well are MUCH shorter in hyperspace than they are outside of one, due to the non-linear effect gravity has on the curvature of the upper dimensions of hyperspace. which effectively "compresses" distances between two points within a gravity well. In fact, as one travels out of the galactic gravity well and enters flat space, the distance to the destination actually increases instead of decreases as space gets flatter and flatter. This phenomenon is also called the Hyperspace Paradox, where the distance to the destination actually increases as one travels towards it regardless of velocity, due to the effect of flat space on the upper dimensions of hyperspace. The flatter the space, the more the distance between two points in hyperspace increases.

The effect is like the rising segment of a sine wave. As one enters flat space, the distance increases exponentially, then it slowly decreases as one approaches the midpoint between the entry and exit points in hyperspace. The distance is at its maximum at the point of "flattest" space along the route, like the exact midpoint between Andromeda and the Milky way for example, then the distance decreases in a falling sine wave as the moving ship gets closer and closer to the destination galaxy.

This isn't the full explanation, but I think it's enough for people to get a general idea of how this works.

The Flat Space Effect also has a minor effect on three dimensional physics as well, but not concerning distances. Flat space has more of an effect on a relativity effect known as time dilation, so the time dilation effect between two parties observing each other across temporal frames is larger than normal.

Not familiar with time dilation? There's plenty of info on it floating around. Just google it, then prepare for your brain to melt trying to wrap your head around it.

[kyli]

I really loved the edit changes Fel, though I only mostly skimmed the last quarter of inception 13 and the parts of conviction 3 that talked about the translight drives before I dived into chapter 4!
1 question that I can think of now is about the shockwave that the drives make. Is it still a problem when the ships reduce speed in mode 3. All it said was that the decay problem was solved, but i'm wondering if the shockwave is still a problem?

[betatester]

So Fel with translight drives; you have introduced a logarithmic speed scale like star-trek's warp factor where on highest warp factors you can start counting down the antimatter fuel remaining and how long the warp coils in the nacelles would last. its just the same with terynium core.

So my question is how long does it take to mine terynium from hyperspace ? and can you expand that industry with rockers or automated drones ?

Also it would be best if you started setting up a frontier outposts in all other galaxies with a stargate leading to them from karis then you can explore these galaxies to look for suitable planets to colonize.

And what about rouge stars or planets which sometimes are thrown out of a galaxy when a galaxies collide and merge. Its not all Flat Space in the Intergalactic Void

[MartinK]

So my question is how long does it take to mine terynium from hyperspace ? and can you expand that industry with rockers or automated drones ?

It was previously mentioned that the Karinnes of old had automated collectors on every ship they used and since they never build any warships or otherwise had much use besides the future plans for the stuff the mountain just grew and grew. So, the plain, unrefined stuff is still there, tons and tons of it. What I am more interested in is, the terynium is collected simply by moving through hyperspace. Since they now can move much faster and seemingly in a very different way from before which means different physical laws govern, how might that influence the properties of unrefined terynium? May there be more than just terynium to be had?

Also it would be best if you started setting up a frontier outposts in all other galaxies with a stargate leading to them from karis then you can explore these galaxies to look for suitable planets to colonize.

Hold, stop, put your brakes on! You want to put a stargate into other galaxies? Those galaxies contain other races, most of which will certainly want those stargates and will find lots of creative ways to get at them. Those stargates also are a means on how they may get to our galaxy. And if you wish to colonize planets there, then you will not be able to avoid diplomatic relationships with races in those galaxies. Who knows if there is some hidden tiger that suddenly feels threatened by your arrival and feels he has to start the very same fight for their own galaxy versus an invader that we already fight in our own galaxy?

As long as there are still plenty of worlds that are similar to earth and can be colonized in the milky way galaxy - or can be terraformed into suitable ones - there is no need to find them outside our galaxy. It only invites trouble. And we have about 200 trillion stars in our galaxy. Even a few million colonized worlds seem nothing compared to that. And so far we have calculated with hundreds of worlds per race. Either we have millions of races, empires, kingdoms and such floating around out there or we still have lots and lots of room to spread.

And what about rouge stars or planets which sometimes are thrown out of a galaxy when a galaxies collide and merge. Its not all Flat Space in the Intergalactic Void

There are some very old star clusters who orbit our galaxy a lot closer than any of those dwarf galaxies. Those might be worth a look, also since they are very old they won't contain all that much higher elements. But in the deep void outside of galaxies, a few rogue stars can be seen as influences somewhere far behind the comma and lots of zeros. That void is so unimaginably huge.

But what else is out there? We know that no galaxy will life forever. One day, there is no material suitable for new suns to be born. Everything goes dark. Now, we know about different forms of galaxies. But those spherical, elliptical and so on galaxies are all still alive with plenty of burning stars. Otherwise, we wouldn't be able to see them out there. And since light takes time to get to us, those galaxies we see are pictures of the past, of a time billions of years ago sometimes. Are there extinguished galaxies out there? How many stars do you need to be burning brightly to still be able to detect a galaxy, a dwarf galaxy or an orphaned star cluster? We still know so few things about whats out there.

There is always someone bigger than you out there you haven't met before. So, there will most definitely be races out there that have had the ability to travel to other galaxies for thousands of years. Since WE haven't had trouble before now, those races are either good-natured explorers who like to know without letting others know or bad guys busy conquering other galaxies. Or maybe it just is an isolationistic race. Imagine, where would your own people be safest no matter what? So much to find, so much to see. Ah, I wish we could travel the stars already.

[Fel]

So Fel with translight drives; you have introduced a logarithmic speed scale like star-trek's warp factor where on highest warp factors you can start counting down the antimatter fuel remaining and how long the warp coils in the nacelles would last. its just the same with terynium core.

So my question is how long does it take to mine terynium from hyperspace ? and can you expand that industry with rockers or automated drones ?

Also it would be best if you started setting up a frontier outposts in all other galaxies with a stargate leading to them from karis then you can explore these galaxies to look for suitable planets to colonize.

And what about rouge stars or planets which sometimes are thrown out of a galaxy when a galaxies collide and merge. Its not all Flat Space in the Intergalactic Void

The speed isn't really logarithmic, it's more or less linear.

As for Terynium, the Karinnes "mine" it in two ways: on ships that move through hyperspace, "scooping" it as they travel, and from static collectors set up on planets, stations, etc etc, that "vacuum up" the particles and trap them in a containment field that reaches into upper dimensions. This is the much faster way to do it, since Terynium is subject to gravity and tends to collect in gravity wells (remember, gravity exerts into hyperspace as well as normal space, which is why jump engines have to clear a strong gravity well to jump). In it's unrefined, raw state, it's basically microscopic dust that exists primarily in hyperspace. Once it's refined, it takes on interphasic properties, becomes a real object that exists in all ten dimensions, yet also can be manipulated as if it were a three dimensional object. They had a metric fuckton of it stockpiled before Jason came to restore the house, but they've actually used up quite a bit of it in the last few years for engine cores and other things.

Because it reacts to itself and decays back into its raw state faster and faster the more there is present in a small area, they're fairly creative in how it's stored. Basically, it's kept in a powder form and mixed with iron, aluminum, and titanium filings to act as insulation and stored in large containers about the size of a dumpster, which are then put in warehouses. The other metals keep the Terynium particles separated, which keeps it from reacting to itself and decaying back into its raw hyperspace state.

Terynium takes a long time to gather and it's not easy to process, but the Karinnes have enough stockpiled to last them maybe another 20 years at the current rate they're building things.

Only the Karinnes and Kimdori use Terynium cores, which makes their jump engines much more efficient. This is why their engines are much smaller than just about every other empire's. Just about everyone else uses a synthesized material that displays the same properties as Terynium. It's much more stable (the Faey Imperium doesn't have to replace their engine cores like the Karinnes do unless they're damaged), but the tradeoff is that they have to make their engines MUCH larger. In most ships, the jump engines take up approximately half of the volume of the ship, and sometimes even more depending on the technology level of the empire. Karinne engines, on the other hand, take up less than a quarter of the volume of the ship, and that leaves them plenty of extra space for more power plants, more equipment, and so on. It's one reason why Karinne ships are so nasty, because they have much more space in their ship hulls for equipment.

[SYED]

I wonder if there will be an academy exploration divisions, so the confederation can work together to explore new galaxies.. This one they visited, can be used as a practice run to establish a long distance gate operation. If it is empty, they could send refugees there, do safe and secure.

If they set up a gate in andromeda, would they use the radiation defense, or simply keep it out side. It will need to be defended from the consortium. So defenses against the energy beings. There might one day be plans to aid in the evacuation of their civilian population, but only after some kind of agreement is made. I doubt they could defeat the syndicate, but they could increase the time table from 6 years to something longer. Confederation tech is already available to the consortium, so why not share the hyperspace catapult system, the least version. That by itself would be a great advantage, and greatly aid their logistics. The more the consortium can hold back their enemy, the more time the confederation can ready themselves for full scale battle with another galaxy.

Instead of going after ships, they should target infrastructure and industry, so not only would they need to rebuild it, they would have to put full defenses on them all.

The thing is the syndicate system is a bunch or corpArations, so profit and image are big things. Also, I bet there is a lot of conflict between them. So lots of the plans the legion used could be used to ensure the enemy has limited resources in conflicts. If they can prove they can not only win naval conflict, and send forces to deal with them directly. It might be enough to convince them that it would cost too much.

Is it possible at all they upgrade the academy computer to a biogenic system, it might be risky by it would expand it capability, of a computer system key to the whole confederation.

[MartinK]

I wonder if there will be an academy exploration divisions, so the confederation can work together to explore new galaxies.. This one they visited, can be used as a practice run to establish a long distance gate operation. If it is empty, they could send refugees there, do safe and secure.

Insanity! Taking the whole confederation exploring to another galaxy is like putting a big fat carrot in front of a starving donkey. They see space not already claimed by any other confederation member and the first thought they will have is to claim it, claim it right now, claim it before any other member does so first.

If they set up a gate in andromeda, would they use the radiation defense, or simply keep it out side. It will need to be defended from the consortium. So defenses against the energy beings.

Yeah, put a gate next to the enemy. You have no idea if they have a species resistant or immune against radiation there. Defending a gate against either of the forces in the andromeda galaxy is also foolish, since the only reason they even have a chance to win against them is the lack of a colonized base to repair ships, the limited numbers of ships that they have to fight against and the looong way and looong time until they get the resources to repair or replace ships, crew and other necessary produce. All that... is directly inverted if they have to fight to protect the gate. It would be easier to just blow the gate up and run away. Hm, so probably the future will see the Karinnes and Kimdori fighting in very precise attacks in andromeda and the confederation will fight back at home, since they won't be able to run away quickly.

There might one day be plans to aid in the evacuation of their civilian population, but only after some kind of agreement is made.

That enemy did very bad things, would we really want to help them? Who do you think we would have to evacuate first before the more innocent population would be allowed to be evacuated? And - with the run on habitable worlds and the lack of food, exactly which member of the confederation would even consider presenting something as juicy as a habitable world to the ones who tried their very best to kill you and your people?

I doubt they could defeat the syndicate

Since Fel doesn't write stories with bad endings - no author worth his salt does - they will have to find some way to win against them, won't they?

Instead of going after ships, they should target infrastructure and industry,

Perhaps you want to reread the first books again? What did you think Jason did first thing in his fight for earth? The very foundation of 3D is based on exactly that principle.

Also, I bet there is a lot of conflict between them.

Easy bet, Fel wrote exactly that in the last chapter.

[kyli]

You know, I've always wondered why Fel never mentioned the satellite galaxies orbiting the Micky way and Andromeda. Looks like he finally did mention them.

I wonder if there will be an academy exploration divisions, so the confederation can work together to explore new galaxies.. This one they visited, can be used as a practice run to establish a long distance gate operation. If it is empty, they could send refugees there, do safe and secure.

Insanity! Taking the whole confederation exploring to another galaxy is like putting a big fat carrot in front of a starving donkey. They see space not already claimed by any other confederation member and the first thought they will have is to claim it, claim it right now, claim it before any other member does so first.

Agreed!! Keep the Confederation away from other galaxies as much as possible and let them reach those galaxies on their own if they want to get there.

If they set up a gate in andromeda, would they use the radiation defense, or simply keep it out side. It will need to be defended from the consortium. So defenses against the energy beings.

Yeah, put a gate next to the enemy. You have no idea if they have a species resistant or immune against radiation there. Defending a gate against either of the forces in the andromeda galaxy is also foolish, since the only reason they even have a chance to win against them is the lack of a colonized base to repair ships, the limited numbers of ships that they have to fight against and the looong way and looong time until they get the resources to repair or replace ships, crew and other necessary produce. All that... is directly inverted if they have to fight to protect the gate. It would be easier to just blow the gate up and run away. Hm, so probably the future will see the Karinnes and Kimdori fighting in very precise attacks in andromeda and the confederation will fight back at home, since they won't be able to run away quickly.

I would actually put a gate in Andromeda. It will still take 1.5 hours to get to Andromeda with translight drives and they should be able to keep the gate secure. Interdictors will prevent anyone from launching an assault without advance warning that they are coming. Though, the Karinnes could still make the trip to or for from Andromeda in 5 minutes in an emergency if they have to.

Confederation tech is already available to the consortium, so why not share the hyperspace catapult system, the least version. That by itself would be a great advantage, and greatly aid their logistics. The more the consortium can hold back their enemy, the more time the confederation can ready themselves for full scale battle with another galaxy.

First of all, the Consortium is still an enemy, though I believe they will make peace at some point. But if peace is made, I think the terms that the confederation will demand will not be very favorable to the consortium. Second, the catapult is only useful if someone doesn't have real time jump engines on their ships. The consortium have had real time engines long enough to already had all their ships converted so the catapult would be absolutely useless for them.

[betatester]

I understood that Consortium would join syndicate as their latest mega corporation and join their society.


Once they have done the milky way withdrawal plan executed; they would simply surrender. Only Consortium Exiles would be left who would be ordered to; somehow if it is possible to prosecute the war, if they won against Milky way and got the technology of Karinnes or others

[MartinK]

I would actually put a gate in Andromeda. It will still take 1.5 hours to get to Andromeda with translight drives and they should be able to keep the gate secure. Interdictors will prevent anyone from launching an assault without advance warning that they are coming. Though, the Karinnes could still make the trip to or for from Andromeda in 5 minutes in an emergency if they have to.

Why? What advantages are there to have a base you have to protect compared to just spend two hours in a jump before you can execute your mission? It wasn't all that long ago that with the exception of those systems that had gates in the Faey Empire, all races in the confederation had to spend weeks or even months to travel from one of their worlds to the next. A mere two hours is nothing compared to that. We can assume that all ships of Karinne and Kimdori will be upgraded to the new engine design. So, I don't see any advantage in establishing a base of operations in enemy territory after the jump engine becomes available.

On the other hand, a base will do two things. First, it would be a place you have to defend, you can't just run away from the battle. Therefore, in that fight, you loose the advantages your speed gives you. It also puts you on the defensive, it is always more difficult to defend than to attack, purely because you have to maintain a defence for 24/7 while an attack happens only while you are actually attacking. When they strike in the andromeda galaxy, imagine how massive the resources have to be to defend all possible targets.

Second, one of the advantages over the enemy we have is their lack of knowledge about us. So, we need to be as mysterious and unfathomable to them as possible. Establish a base and you give them a target to try out all their new technology, their sensors, their strategies. They will refine our psychological profile, our technology and the strategies our fleet will use in their fights. Just so safe a two hour jump you will offer them intelligence on a silver platter.

Imagine what would happen if they figure out the jump inhibitor. They will surely have the idea to use old technology to circumvent that defense. Someone in our galaxy certainly did that fast enough. The best protection is for the enemy to not notice a place to attack or, secondary, to use distance as a barrier they just can't get around.

On the other hand, if you see a local base as so important, we could either establish them outside the andromeda galaxy, just putting one in the middle between the milky way and andromeda will safe you half the travel time. We could also build a mobile base that will just jump away if it gets attacked. Or on regular intervals so the enemy won't even find it.

The speed we can move ships around the universe is a force multiplier that is close to infinity. One of the most limiting factors of war is that you have to spend most of your time to move your forces around and into position. The time they actually do spend fighting is tiny. How was it soldiers described their job? Warfare is interminable boredom punctuated by moments of terror or something like that? Don't let the enemy force you into one huge battle and you can essentially use just a handful of ships to fight a thousand times their number of enemy ships.

[kyli]

I would actually put a gate in Andromeda. It will still take 1.5 hours to get to Andromeda with translight drives and they should be able to keep the gate secure. Interdictors will prevent anyone from launching an assault without advance warning that they are coming. Though, the Karinnes could still make the trip to or for from Andromeda in 5 minutes in an emergency if they have to.

Why? What advantages are there to have a base you have to protect compared to just spend two hours in a jump before you can execute your mission? It wasn't all that long ago that with the exception of those systems that had gates in the Faey Empire, all races in the confederation had to spend weeks or even months to travel from one of their worlds to the next. A mere two hours is nothing compared to that. We can assume that all ships of Karinne and Kimdori will be upgraded to the new engine design. So, I don't see any advantage in establishing a base of operations in enemy territory after the jump engine becomes available.

On the other hand, a base will do two things. First, it would be a place you have to defend, you can't just run away from the battle. Therefore, in that fight, you loose the advantages your speed gives you. It also puts you on the defensive, it is always more difficult to defend than to attack, purely because you have to maintain a defence for 24/7 while an attack happens only while you are actually attacking. When they strike in the andromeda galaxy, imagine how massive the resources have to be to defend all possible targets.

Second, one of the advantages over the enemy we have is their lack of knowledge about us. So, we need to be as mysterious and unfathomable to them as possible. Establish a base and you give them a target to try out all their new technology, their sensors, their strategies. They will refine our psychological profile, our technology and the strategies our fleet will use in their fights. Just so safe a two hour jump you will offer them intelligence on a silver platter.

Imagine what would happen if they figure out the jump inhibitor. They will surely have the idea to use old technology to circumvent that defense. Someone in our galaxy certainly did that fast enough. The best protection is for the enemy to not notice a place to attack or, secondary, to use distance as a barrier they just can't get around.

On the other hand, if you see a local base as so important, we could either establish them outside the andromeda galaxy, just putting one in the middle between the milky way and andromeda will safe you half the travel time. We could also build a mobile base that will just jump away if it gets attacked. Or on regular intervals so the enemy won't even find it.

The speed we can move ships around the universe is a force multiplier that is close to infinity. One of the most limiting factors of war is that you have to spend most of your time to move your forces around and into position. The time they actually do spend fighting is tiny. How was it soldiers described their job? Warfare is interminable boredom punctuated by moments of terror or something like that? Don't let the enemy force you into one huge battle and you can essentially use just a handful of ships to fight a thousand times their number of enemy ships.

The kimdori already have a base they have to keep hidden and protect. I would not suggest putting a gate in Andromeda if I wasn't confident in the karinnes and kimdori's ability to keep it hidden. And move it if it is discovered. The interdictor would only be there to give time to evacuated and that would not give their enemy much time to test the interdictor.

And putting a gate between the two galaxies would not help. Because of the flat space effect, it would take longer to reach Andromeda if you start the hyperspace jump in "flat space". It would be better to just put the gate in one of Andromeda's satilite galaxies.

But something I'm worried about is the syndicates ability to know which battles would matter in the war and win them. One explanation came to mind as soon as I read it. I believe Fel mentioned precognition as a psychic ability and that it drives the person insane. Well the energy beings have some pretty amazing abilities. Maybe the syndicate have access to some other amazing psychic abilities themselves.

[Fel]

I understood that Consortium would join syndicate as their latest mega corporation and join their society.


Once they have done the milky way withdrawal plan executed; they would simply surrender. Only Consortium Exiles would be left who would be ordered to; somehow if it is possible to prosecute the war, if they won against Milky way and got the technology of Karinnes or others

Well reasoned. The Consortium is doing exactly this, to save the civilians it can't evacuate.

[SYED]

All the generations were made to be strong telepathy and apparently telekinetic. I wonder why they never attempted to strengthen or enhance the other powers that have appeared in faey telepathic arts. Even if they are unable to place them into the bloodlines, they could have tried to imprint them on to crystals so merges/communion with biogenic systems would allow them to more freely access and use these abilities.
The Ruu are said to be on the same or more advanced tech level, since they are so highly telepathic, I wonder if they ever developed their own enhancement program. If they did, I wonder if their data combined with the Karrines records, could allow huge advancements.
If the consortium had access to telepathy already, they would have been able to fight better and definitely used in this galaxy . While the syndicate is not as advanced, I wonder if they managed to some how do their own enhancements or augementations ,. It would be a huge advantage. Telepathic mind strikers, cause the creation of large scale fighter pilot usage, so powers can affect naval engagements.

[Belgarion213]

I think its probably likely that somehwere over there in the Syndicate there is a telepath with the power to predict the future. We know, from Jason's internal comments that its exceedingly rare in telepathy (like 1%), and in non-fay telepathy is already less than that (like maybe 0.0001%) of the population. However the Syndicate has half a GALAXY to get likely candidates from.

Still, I'm fairly sure the Karines, like other noble houses, tried to breed in precognition into the bloodline. How successful it was...Then there are the mysterious talents that are not normal telepathy (aka the Shaman used them to banish the energy being who was lurking around on Karis).

Speaking of the medical nanites that were mentioned, I wonder what effect they would have on 'Talent'. Especially if they were created in the right way using Biogenic crystals...could the Karines have created something like a Gestalt 2.0? Though perhaps nanites are a bit small to properly use in that manner.

[expedient]

The speed we can move ships around the universe is a force multiplier that is close to infinity. One of the most limiting factors of war is that you have to spend most of your time to move your forces around and into position. The time they actually do spend fighting is tiny. How was it soldiers described their job? Warfare is interminable boredom punctuated by moments of terror or something like that? Don't let the enemy force you into one huge battle and you can essentially use just a handful of ships to fight a thousand times their number of enemy ships.

This is what I expect to happen. Attacking when and where the Syndicate can't respond in time and reverting back to Legion tactics of attacking unconventional targets. The Legion crippled shipping on Earth but they also humiliated the Trillanes with large scale pranks which helped disrupt their leaders and workers daily lives. With the Kimdori collecting data and targeting "difficult" individuals then the Syndicate might face a kind of warfare that they are unprepared for. Multiple attacks and spy missions happening concurrently and at opportunity might negate any useful precognitive protections too.

Speaking of the medical nanites that were mentioned, I wonder what effect they would have on 'Talent'. Especially if they were created in the right way using Biogenic crystals...could the Karines have created something like a Gestalt 2.0? Though perhaps nanites are a bit small to properly use in that manner.

This is an intriguing idea.