Inception, chapter 11 [Spoilers]

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PhilippeO
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Re: Inception, chapter 11 [Spoilers]

Post by PhilippeO »

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Is it really a good idea for Jason and Miaari to place the Hrathari on Terra? If the Hrathari end up on Terra wouldn't the secret of who they are and where they are from eventually become known?  


i don't think this is a big problem.

First Jason describe New York City is like 'Star Wars'. with million of aliens from eighty different species live in Terra, working or studying, additions of several thousands more canoid alien would not be that attention attracting.

Second, only navigation location of Hrathari that need to be keep secret. Galaxy is a big place, without ability to locate Hrathari empire location, no empire could send ship for war or trade. Karinne could use their telepaths to delete this information from few Hrathari navigator / admiral, ordinary sailor / soldier probably couldn't point out their star location if given Galaxy map.
SYED
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Re: Inception, chapter 11 [Spoilers]

Post by SYED »

do we know how many are we talking about? it would be an issue if there are thousands of them.

the thing is if earth has gone multicultural with all these aliens, you gotta know there are a bunch of nutjobs complaining about all the problems they have caused and how they should be driven off. they are liklyt to encourage acts of stupidity as well.

if earth is so popular other bodies in the system need to be colonised, it would be very cool.
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MartinK
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Re: Inception, chapter 11 [Spoilers]

Post by MartinK »

Earth is the center of the Confederation. As such, its the place to be for all espionage activity. Its the place where 'things' happen. And you can be sure that all espionage teams will know at least all species that are either members of or under the influence of the Confederation - which should be all that are living/working/tourisming on earth. The sudden and unexplainable emergence of a totally unknown species that numbers in the thousands on earth will only be ignored - note: ignored means it was seen but not acted upon - by the most incompetent intelligence service.

Next, every intelligence service not only spies on all sorts of official activities that might hide the unofficial ones. One of the biggest hopes of one such service is the undermining of another such service, which essentially might find out things one does not know. So, no chance of them not being noticed.

So, we can assume that the Hrathari heading for earth will get their memories about the general location of their former home edited out. Still, that leaves quite a few clues. Next thing an intelligence service will do is get one of the newcomers dead or alive, preferably dead since all they know can be gotten simply by asking and paying them for it. So, wait until the first bar fight that ends in a dead Hrathari... or even go and kill one yourself. What shall we now do with the body? Lets start with the eyes. The visible light we see depends heavily on the sun our ancestors evolved under. Therefore you can get both the exact type of the sun of the Hrathari home world as well as the approximate distance between sun and home world. Next we might check the database, eliminate every sun that does not match our criterion and see if there are any known planets in the database that we know about but haven't visited due to ridiculous distance. We as in humans can't even fly to the planet next to earth but we find hundreds of new planets in other systems each year. Who knows how far a space faring civilization can see, it might be in the database.

I'm sure there are still lots of clues in the body left. How much radiation is a Hrathari used to? That might clue us in to the approximate distance of their home world from the galactic core. It might not lead us directly to them, but it does give us lots of hints. And when the first of their neighbors comes visiting there will be even more clues... although getting a dead body from a small diplomatic group might be a lot more difficult.
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The Thing
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Re: Inception, chapter 11 [Spoilers]

Post by The Thing »

MartinK wrote:.......might not lead us directly to them, but it does give us lots of hints. And when the first of their neighbors comes visiting there will be even more clues.........
Continuing MartinK's comment :

May be they can erase the Hrathari's memory of their home planet/system and even of their enemies as such, but you cannot specifically erase every Hrathari's memory of every star. If you end up scanning sufficient number of Hrathrai you can get some idea of how far their home was from a certain star or what star system was visible in the night sky to them and when ( who knows, they may even have personal names named after the visible stars etc etc). We as humans with far lower technology can predict the distance of distant stars from our planet. So with much more advanced technology, scan enough number of beings and you end up with an approximate plan of where their system might be located. Then add with the other ideas given by Martink and the thousand more ideas others can come up with and you can find their system and from them the whole RK sector with 30 Earth days for sure !!
So now the question comes back to, if the Karinne's intend to put them on Terra then how will they protect this info without totally destroying the minds of the Hrathari ?
Disclaimer: I have no F'in idea if the technical mumbo jumbo I spew on here is even logically right or possible. Read at your own caution.
SYED
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Re: Inception, chapter 11 [Spoilers]

Post by SYED »

The thing is even if they eventually figure out where to go, they have no way to make the journey pracicle for their fleets. Sure eventually their ships can jump in real time, but ti would take time to refit their fleet, and set up a logistic system. Sure those empires have a lower level of tech, they do have numbers. They will still attempt to co pot them, but try to find a way short of out right military action.
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The Thing
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Re: Inception, chapter 11 [Spoilers]

Post by The Thing »

SYED wrote:The thing is even if they eventually figure out where to go, they have no way to make the journey pracicle for their fleets. Sure eventually their ships can jump in real time, but it would take time to refit their fleet, and set up a logistic system.
The Imperium already has finished testing real time jump engines and they do not need to immediately upgrade ALL their ships since they just need a ship or two to just search out the exact location. And since the Imperium has already figured it out I am pretty sure Urumi will not be far away and the same with Skaa. And by spying on the Imperium the other members of the Confederation will also find it out (whether its the engines or the location of the Hrathari).
SYED wrote:Sure those empires have a lower level of tech, they do have numbers. They will still attempt to co pot them, but try to find a way short of out right military action.
You do not need to attack to have an effect in that system. All you need is to form alliances, provide new and advanced tech, take sides and influence the local political stability. And gradually they can either attack and take over or can bribe and influence them to join their empire and can carry over local enmity from the Confederation to over there and mess up their system.
Disclaimer: I have no F'in idea if the technical mumbo jumbo I spew on here is even logically right or possible. Read at your own caution.
MartinK
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Re: Inception, chapter 11 [Spoilers]

Post by MartinK »

SYED wrote:The thing is even if they eventually figure out where to go, they have no way to make the journey pracicle for their fleets. Sure eventually their ships can jump in real time, but ti would take time to refit their fleet, and set up a logistic system. Sure those empires have a lower level of tech, they do have numbers. They will still attempt to co pot them, but try to find a way short of out right military action.
I believe that at least the Faey are already using those real time jumps in their exploration using it at the edge of the galaxy where those ugly humanoids that helped the consortium where located, sry, forgot the name.

And even a single ship with real time jump capability can be used to pin down countless ships of an enemy without that technology. You can jump around all of their planets in a blink of an eye. And your enemy simply must put enough defense on every single planet to counter your ship. Leave just one open to attack and its lost. Also, the move to that technology will likely even take preference over building new ships - if the upgrading is possible at all. Otherwise, well, the Faey happen to be quite busy building new ships. And they are not that far behind Karinne technology, so even smaller numbers of ships should be quite overwhelming for the Hrathari or their neighbors.

And if its not the faey, it'll be some other empire or whatnot from confederation space. Remember, the Karinne can't allow the Faey to be the only ones possessing that real time jump technology and will take steps to help others along - if their R&D can't do it on its own in a reasonable time frame.

However, i don't think it would be that difficult to clean up all memories of foreign stars. If i show any one person today a picture of the milky way galaxy and ask, where might the solar system, our home, be in there, i doubt i would find even 1% correct answers. Adding to that... why would you just remove the memories? Wouldn't it be more logical to replace it with wrong ones? Even if you find some correct ones, you can't trust them. No way to know which are which.
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PhilippeO
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Re: Inception, chapter 11 [Spoilers]

Post by PhilippeO »

The sudden and unexplainable emergence of a totally unknown species that numbers in the thousands on earth will only be ignored -


I'm not sure this is true. Intelligence agencies on earth had lot of duties and targets, spying on each other, on research personnel, on governmental agencies. Several thousand aliens among million of other aliens would be just minor thing. And remember that many students come from several sector away. Most spying would be directed to neighboring sector. Cataloguing hundred of aliens would needless waste of resource.

Second, Intelligence agencies on earth did not have Jason knowledge. Jason knew Hrathari have hundred of planet and relatively backward technology, that why he didn't tell Dahnai. even if they scan one Hrathari mind, they would not know how advanced Hrathari tech or knowing number of arable Hrathari planet. "Unknown Empire that attack Karrine agricultural planet and get their fleet ambushed and destroyed" did not mean that they have lot of arable planet or they very weak technologically. Karinne had successfully ambush Consortium before. an intelligence agencies going for limited check, scan several random Hrathari mind, wouldn't put Hrathari in any priorities.

Third, Researching Hrathari body and history would be an extensive endeavour without purpose for busy intelligence agencies. a) local solar system ( presence of radioactive planet, how thick atmosphere, angle of planet from the sun) that would decide a lot of Hrathari biology, not location of their sun in the galaxy would influence Hrathari bodies more. b) Hrathari knowledge of constellation would be difficult to use. Terrans think Polaris and Twelve Zodiac important, its their location and usefulness in dating that make them important. Bright and Important star to astronomer not necessarily would have place in mythology. c) and Galaxy is very big place, even if they found Hrathari evolved in bright red sun, there will be tens of thousands of stars fulfilling that criteria in Galaxy. d) distance from galactic core would be even more irrelevant, most intelligent species is in the Rim of Galaxy, and even if they found Hrathari distance from Core, Galaxy have 640 sector on identical distance from Galactic Core.
MartinK
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Re: Inception, chapter 11 [Spoilers]

Post by MartinK »

PhilippeO wrote:
The sudden and unexplainable emergence of a totally unknown species that numbers in the thousands on earth will only be ignored -


I'm not sure this is true. Intelligence agencies on earth had lot of duties and targets, spying on each other, on research personnel, on governmental agencies. Several thousand aliens among million of other aliens would be just minor thing. And remember that many students come from several sector away. Most spying would be directed to neighboring sector. Cataloguing hundred of aliens would needless waste of resource.
And i expect that every intelligence service worth being called such has a file on each and every one of those students, on the species, its homeworld, area of influence, known strong and weak points, important people, culture, etc. Each of those students is possibly a top secret spy from another agency.

Humanity has many legends. There's the yeti. There's a monster in Loch Ness. There are flying objects nobody can identify. There are even buildings on mars. Well... not really. But still there are people out there trying to find pictures, videos and all sorts of clues that its still true. And that's for things that don't exist. Now, there are aliens. Someone will notice them and be nosy enough to want to know more about yet another alien species. If its the crazy "humanity first aliens are to be hated" guy its an embarrassment for intelligence agencies.
Second, Intelligence agencies on earth did not have Jason knowledge. Jason knew Hrathari have hundred of planet and relatively backward technology, that why he didn't tell Dahnai. even if they scan one Hrathari mind, they would not know how advanced Hrathari tech or knowing number of arable Hrathari planet. "Unknown Empire that attack Karrine agricultural planet and get their fleet ambushed and destroyed" did not mean that they have lot of arable planet or they very weak technologically. Karinne had successfully ambush Consortium before. an intelligence agencies going for limited check, scan several random Hrathari mind, wouldn't put Hrathari in any priorities.

Oh yeah, there is an unknown species out there. It suddenly appears in your neighborhood. You know nothing about it. You do not know if they are a threat, where they come from, what they intend on doing in your neighborhood and what changes they bring with them. And no one else does either! That's like Microsoft ignoring a small corporation that specializes in the not very profitable search engine market. Its a recipe for disaster. An intelligent service absolutely has to know whats going on everywhere around it. Anything you do not know is something that can possibly show up with a lot of advanced ships in orbit around your homeworld sooner or later.
Third, Researching Hrathari body and history would be an extensive endeavour without purpose for busy intelligence agencies. a) local solar system ( presence of radioactive planet, how thick atmosphere, angle of planet from the sun) that would decide a lot of Hrathari biology, not location of their sun in the galaxy would influence Hrathari bodies more. b) Hrathari knowledge of constellation would be difficult to use. Terrans think Polaris and Twelve Zodiac important, its their location and usefulness in dating that make them important. Bright and Important star to astronomer not necessarily would have place in mythology. c) and Galaxy is very big place, even if they found Hrathari evolved in bright red sun, there will be tens of thousands of stars fulfilling that criteria in Galaxy. d) distance from galactic core would be even more irrelevant, most intelligent species is in the Rim of Galaxy, and even if they found Hrathari distance from Core, Galaxy have 640 sector on identical distance from Galactic Core.
Every single clue you can find is another waypoint to the knowledge one seeks. If you have the approximate distance of earth from the core, the type of sun and at least one constellation of stars visible from your homeworld all you need now is a computer that can go through your database. If you are flying around in giant space ships in your edge of the galaxy you will by definition have a very good knowledge of distances, stars and such even before you fly to another region and end up in the middle of a sun or a black hole.

Humanity was using star constellations to navigate the oceans before someone invented GPS. And the only thing moving was earth itself, the star constellations did not change at all. Although without actually having a real picture to see exact distances between stars it would be quite a lot more difficult.

Our galaxy has an estimated 100 to 400 billion stars in them. Google has indexed 4.2 billion internet pages as of now. So, even today with our current technology we would be able to handle all those stars - if we had a way to actually look at them. But we only have one viewpoint - from earth. And as such, many stars are occluded by other stars so we don't see them. We also can't see anything on the opposite side since the center of our galaxy stops us there. But if you can just jump out into the middle of empty space, jump a few hundred light years up or down out of the galactic disc and look from there you can see a lot more.

And if you can construct a view from any place in the galaxy at other stars, its simply a question of computers calculating where that place might be. A simple picture with stars in the background would do.
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