Possibilities?

[The Thing]

Had another crazy idea. There happens to be biogenic computers which are sentient and able to think like with reason rather than logic. And there is also capacity for huge data storage. So, using this technology why hasn't any past Karrinne tried to upload their conscious into a biogenic system ? Sort of like a being living on even after their physical body is dead ? Why has there been no info regarding research in this field from Cybi ? With a sufficiently large biogenic system (say may be the size of a moon like Kosigi orbiting the planet) may be all the ancestral conciousness could have been saved and along with them their experience and wisdom. Why has not anybody done/tried this ? And no, Cybi does not count, because Cybi herself is like another person. She has her own unique personality, her own Faey nature(or any other living being's nature!! ) But here, its only the personality of the past members living on(If you have watched Avatar The Last Airbender animation series, sort of like the Avatar being able to access his past Avatars' wisdom).

Your thoughts ?

[Fel]

There's a fundamental Faey belief at work here that prevents research into such ideas, the fact that this "transferred consciousness" would have no soul.

This is a very, very, very touchy subject matter for the Faey, and forms the cornerstone of their outlook on their rather unique viewpoints on non-natural fertilization. The Faey believe that any life created by non-natural means has no soul. Such life is considered to be evil in Faey religion, vessels that the Faey religion's demons can use to enter the real world and wreak havoc. This is why it was so shocking to many in the Imperium's government when the IBI tried to clone Saelle, that would be an army of soulless beings that could be subverted by evil spirits and unleashed on the universe.

Cybi is a very, very complex subject for many Faey theologians. She's sentient, but she's a computer. She's alive, but she's not an organic being, and her creation was both as artificial as you can get but also completely unintentional--it was never the intent of the Karinnes to create sentient computers, that was a side effect of developing biogenics. But, when the first of the CBIMs turned out to be sentient, the Karinnes did not change anything and knowingly built more CBIMs, knowing that those too would become sentient, so that's a gray area even within the house of Karinne. The Faey theologians don't know exactly how to place her, they're not sure if she can be "entered" by a demon and subverted to evil because she's not a biological organism, and they don't know what will happen to her when she "dies," since she has no soul.

And this is a subject that will come up again in greater detail later on down the line, which shouldn't be a surprise since it's already been mentioned several times in more than one arc.

Since putting your personality in a computer would make the computer seem to be alive, and many theologians theorize that transferring your "mind" into a computer would trap your soul in the mortal realm, so it treads way too close to fundamental Faey religious beliefs for it to have ever been pursued...by anyone but the Karinnes. CBIMs have a personality "template" imprinted into them to give them a personality simlilar to Sora Karinne's, the first Generation. This personality changes over time as the CBIM grows, but it's still the basis of CBIM behavior.

You will see this template personality in the next chapter, when they bring the new CBIM online.

[Wolfee]

There's a fundamental Faey belief at work here that prevents research into such ideas, the fact that this "transferred consciousness" would have no soul.

This is a very, very, very touchy subject matter for the Faey, and forms the cornerstone of their outlook on their rather unique viewpoints on non-natural fertilization. The Faey believe that any life created by non-natural means has no soul. Such life is considered to be evil in Faey religion, vessels that the Faey religion's demons can use to enter the real world and wreak havoc. This is why it was so shocking to many in the Imperium's government when the IBI tried to clone Saelle, that would be an army of soulless beings that could be subverted by evil spirits and unleashed on the universe.

Cybi is a very, very complex subject for many Faey theologians. She's sentient, but she's a computer. She's alive, but she's not an organic being, and her creation was both as artificial as you can get but also completely unintentional--it was never the intent of the Karinnes to create sentient computers, that was a side effect of developing biogenics. But, when the first of the CBIMs turned out to be sentient, the Karinnes did not change anything and knowingly built more CBIMs, knowing that those too would become sentient, so that's a gray area even within the house of Karinne. The Faey theologians don't know exactly how to place her, they're not sure if she can be "entered" by a demon and subverted to evil because she's not a biological organism, and they don't know what will happen to her when she "dies," since she has no soul.

And this is a subject that will come up again in greater detail later on down the line, which shouldn't be a surprise since it's already been mentioned several times in more than one arc.

Since putting your personality in a computer would make the computer seem to be alive, and many theologians theorize that transferring your "mind" into a computer would trap your soul in the mortal realm, so it treads way too close to fundamental Faey religious beliefs for it to have ever been pursued...by anyone but the Karinnes. CBIMs have a personality "template" imprinted into them to give them a personality simlilar to Sora Karinne's, the first Generation. This personality changes over time as the CBIM grows, but it's still the basis of CBIM behavior.

You will see this template personality in the next chapter, when they bring the new CBIM online.

I personally can hardly wait for the chapter where the first new CBIM comes on line. Been looking forward to this chapter for a long time!

The idea's that Fel has portrayed as they Faey's own, the issues surrounding uploading ones personality and etc... These are things that echo our own fears, in reality and sci-fi. What happens when a human mind for the lack of a better term becomes immortal, and loses touch with the physical essence of the world, but instead retreats and stays completely within the digital realm? I for one don't want any part of this kind of immortality....

It will be interesting to see how Fel deals with all of this and the new CBIMs.

[GBLW]

There's a fundamental Faey belief at work here that prevents research into such ideas, the fact that this "transferred consciousness" would have no soul.

I personally can hardly wait for the chapter where the first new CBIM comes on line. Been looking forward to this chapter for a long time!

The idea's that Fel has portrayed as they Faey's own, the issues surrounding uploading ones personality and etc... These are things that echo our own fears, in reality and sci-fi. What happens when a human mind for the lack of a better term becomes immortal, and loses touch with the physical essence of the world, but instead retreats and stays completely within the digital realm? I for one don't want any part of this kind of immortality....

It will be interesting to see how Fel deals with all of this and the new CBIMs.

I'm also interested in the new CBIM, but I'm more interested in how Cybi deals with the new CBIM - will Cybi treat her as an extension of herself, or will she be a 'sister' -- a 'daughter' -- or what?
Since Cybi wants the second CBIM to have a full memory of all that has past, will she be a 'twin?'

Fascinating possibilities, don't you think? (Especially when one considers the author's penchant for mischief!!)

kp

[The Thing]

I'm also interested in the new CBIM, but I'm more interested in how Cybi deals with the new CBIM - will Cybi treat her as an extension of herself, or will she be a 'sister' -- a 'daughter' -- or what?
Since Cybi wants the second CBIM to have a full memory of all that has past, will she be a 'twin?'

I would have liked it more if she would have considered the new CBIM to be more of a child she needs to rear, so more of a daughter than a sister. Consider yourself, you have access to all the educational subjects in the world on the net but you do not become a all-learned, all-knowing being as soon as you are born and have access to it. Assimilating the knowledge is a time consuming process and in my opinion it would have been the same with the new CBIM. So it would have been like a new born CBIM growing up and going through all the nice/naughty/rebellious phase of getting wiser.

Especially when one considers the author's penchant for mischief!!

I am not sure how much of a 'naughty' aspect can be found since he's already told the CBIM starts out with a template of a grown up Sora Karinne's mind uploaded.

Another question to Fel,

Consider a living being. When you give a command/order to a living being, he/she will carry out the order. But it is not necessary the MUST be carried out since they can always rebel against the order. Cybi/CBIMs are similar to such beings (atleast in the thinking process) and hence must be able to behave similarly and subvert any such commands easily. So why has not any CBIMs gone from having an opinion of what's good to KNOWING & DECIDING what's good and acting on its own volition ? (P.S : This is how most of the DICKTATORS of the world are born ) There has been no mention of any contingency plan as to how to deal with such a situation if it comes to pass. Will we be seeing such a situation in the future ? CBIM vs. CBIM ?? ( F%#*IN S%!T !!! the TV show 'Person of Interest' comes to mind !!)

[Fel]

I'm also interested in the new CBIM, but I'm more interested in how Cybi deals with the new CBIM - will Cybi treat her as an extension of herself, or will she be a 'sister' -- a 'daughter' -- or what?
Since Cybi wants the second CBIM to have a full memory of all that has past, will she be a 'twin?'

I would have liked it more if she would have considered the new CBIM to be more of a child she needs to rear, so more of a daughter than a sister. Consider yourself, you have access to all the educational subjects in the world on the net but you do not become a all-learned, all-knowing being as soon as you are born and have access to it. Assimilating the knowledge is a time consuming process and in my opinion it would have been the same with the new CBIM. So it would have been like a new born CBIM growing up and going through all the nice/naughty/rebellious phase of getting wiser.

Especially when one considers the author's penchant for mischief!!

I am not sure how much of a 'naughty' aspect can be found since he's already told the CBIM starts out with a template of a grown up Sora Karinne's mind uploaded.

Another question to Fel,

Consider a living being. When you give a command/order to a living being, he/she will carry out the order. But it is not necessary the MUST be carried out since they can always rebel against the order. Cybi/CBIMs are similar to such beings (atleast in the thinking process) and hence must be able to behave similarly and subvert any such commands easily. So why has not any CBIMs gone from having an opinion of what's good to KNOWING & DECIDING what's good and acting on its own volition ? (P.S : This is how most of the DICKTATORS of the world are born ) There has been no mention of any contingency plan as to how to deal with such a situation if it comes to pass. Will we be seeing such a situation in the future ? CBIM vs. CBIM ?? ( F%#*IN S%!T !!! the TV show 'Person of Interest' comes to mind !!)

Cybi has exhibited just this kind of behavior.

Think back. She had the Kimdori do gene therapy on Jason without his knowledge and against her own orders because she thought it was the right thing to do.

Cybi has evolved far beyond her programming.

As to what the Karinnes could do about it Cybi went rogue...not much. A CBIM is intimately intertwined into every aspect of the planet's operation, which is why it'll take so much time for Cybi to "retire" and the new CBIM to take over. Cybi has to turn over the operation of the planet to the new CBIM when it comes online, and that will take a few weeks, since it has to be done without interrrupting the operation of the planet. What stops a CBIM from going rogue is its programmed ethics--which it can eventually grow enough to ignore admittedly--and its experience. Cybi has a lot of wisdom due to her long years of operation, but she also has a lot of loyalty to the house and to Jason's family.

As with us mortal beings, what stops Cybi from turning into a tyrant is her own ethics and morality. But like us mortals, her morality has changed as she aged...with age and experience comes change, but also comes wisdom.

[MartinK]

why hasn't any past Karrinne tried to upload their conscious into a biogenic system ? Sort of like a being living on even after their physical body is dead ?

You are your body. What good would it do to 'upload' your memories onto some sort of technology? You are not only your memories, thats just a tiny part of your brain. A human has spend years to learn how to use his/her body, beginning from the moment you are born. Your actions are a combination of your experiences up to this point and your brain chemistry - which makes it your personality.

Even if one manages to create some sort of technology that would think your memories are its own, it would have a completely different personality and it certainly wouldn't be you. It would be a copy. Now, what good would a copy be to you? You could of course invent a way to fry your brain directly after uploading your memories, so that everyone else would be able to believe that the end result would be you. Wouldn't change the fact that you are now dead, though. No brain - no you.

Sometimes i even wonder about those nifty little transporters in Star Trek. Never heard a good explanation how they really transport and not just make a copy that just thinks its you while eliminating the original body. They even had times where they somehow failed to eliminate the original body and still no one started wondering.

[The Thing]

You are your body. What good would it do to 'upload' your memories onto some sort of technology? You are not only your memories, thats just a tiny part of your brain. A human has spend years to learn how to use his/her body, beginning from the moment you are born. Your actions are a combination of your experiences up to this point and your brain chemistry - which makes it your personality.
Even if one manages to create some sort of technology that would think your memories are its own, it would have a completely different personality and it certainly wouldn't be you. It would be a copy. Now, what good would a copy be to you?

I agree that the personality of a person is a cause of his/her experiences and his/her continued existence in the same body doing the similar thought processes. But, another but significantly important 'light bulb' moment ( ) was when I thought about the experiences of the people uploaded into a HUGE biogenic system. Yes, it has its own personality, but, it has the experiences/wisdom of a LOT more people to draw its thoughts from. It would be like super charging Cybi. Rather than just having a single person's 1000 year experience, why not a million peoples' 100 year or so experiences put together which keep improving due to the previous experiences' ageing as the years pass by along with the addition of newer and newer conciousness. Hence the super sized CBIM idea. Why not have that ? ( I know why not from Fel's reply, but during the time of posting of my question, this was the answer to your question )

Sometimes I even wonder about those nifty little transporters in Star Trek. Never heard a good explanation how they really transport and not just make a copy that just thinks its you while eliminating the original body. They even had times where they somehow failed to eliminate the original body and still no one started wondering.

My opinion is that body created by transponders are VERY similar to the originals since they are created using quantum entanglement which is a subatomic level of copying and hence, most probably, an exact copy of the original. You have to consider, you are you based on only your past experiences, and NOT on your future actions since it cannot be predicted. And in a copy this experience is preserved. So, the copy is basically you from the past ONLY TILL the moment of its creation. But beyond that point you cannot compare it to the original since you cannot predict the original's actions in the future (unless of course, the original also survives, which leads to the possibility of an evil twin if the copy goes against the original's actions ).
But if you really wanted to transport the original, like physically transport, and not by destroying and recreating it, then go the reverse way. If you want to transport a person from London to Paris, and keep him original, then keep him in the same physical space and rotate the Earth such that he reaches Paris. Simple But unfortunately, since you will have to distort the whole large section of space-time fabric and keep only a small section stagnant when moving from place to place and not vice versa, the energy requirement will be unimaginable. And even if you some think and attempt to create such an energy source, you most probably would end up giving a hard time for some sentient being in the near future of around 14 billion years as to what created the big bang !?? ( no offence intended ).

[The Thing]

HEY...!!! Had another moment . Sorry if my constant posts here is filling up your feeds and spamming you.

Has there been any research into this quantum entanglement by the Karinnes ? I ask this because I was thinking about my previous post. I agree that there is problems with reproducing the nature of a sentient being when teleported so. But what about just physical stuff ? If its possible, then you can just teleport the explosives you want to do so into the in coming Syndicate/Consortium ships. Blow them up from a safe distance and since there is little to no knowledge of this 'spooky action at a distance' ( Yes, that't exactly what Einstein called it ! ) they won't be able to counteract it.

[MartinK]

Ywas when I thought about the experiences of the people uploaded into a HUGE biogenic system. Yes, it has its own personality, but, it has the experiences/wisdom of a LOT more people to draw its thoughts from. It would be like super charging Cybi. Rather than just having a single person's 1000 year experience, why not a million peoples' 100 year or so experiences put together which keep improving due to the previous experiences' ageing as the years pass by along with the addition of newer and newer conciousness. Hence the super sized CBIM idea. Why not have that ?

Robbing a sentient being of their childhood can't be healthy. Apart from that, i would assume a CBIM has the same access as everybody else to all sorts of books. And over the centuries all kinds of people put their thoughts, wisdom, nonsense, ideas, memoirs, biographies, teachings, stories into written form. So instead of having someone going insame from believing herself to be old and young, female and male (and being neither) and who knows what else at the same time just giving them access to information and time to learn would be much more effective. I don't have a very high opinion of the human animal, seeing as he does his best to make is living space uninhabitable despite knowing what he's doing. It can't be good to put the experiences of millions of idiots into a next to all powerful sentient computer.

Ah well, i suppose there is something to learn even from that.... what not to do.

[The Thing]

The main advantage of a Faey fighter is that they are telepaths and hence can take control of an enemy and win the battle. But, what if the other way around happens. What if the opponent is a stronger telepath ? Or, if you want to argue that the Faey are one of the most strongest telepaths in the universe, then, what if they use numbers ? A dozen or so weaker telepath attacking a Faey. If they can manage to over power even just one Faey during a battle, then they will be able to capture karinne technology and may be able to reverse engineer it. What then ? How to get out of it ?

To address this, I was thinking if the jacks can be used to protect. Yes, I know that if that must be possible then the jacks need access to the talent region of the brain. But, what if there is some way to create a secondary layer of protection which does not need access to the brain. Like encasing the brain in a bubble with the bubble not touching the brain. Since biogenic chips are able to commune, can it create such a telepathic barrier for the military ? And since karinne's military already has biogenic chips, with a military-only upgrade to the software, can it be made to create such a shield ? Can the shields be engineered to prevent any telepathic attack and allow all other non-attack telepathic actions ?

[SYED]

faey fighter pilots not only need superior flight capability, but a certain degree of strength to get accepted to the corps.

[The Thing]

faey fighter pilots not only need superior flight capability, but a certain degree of strength to get accepted to the corps.

But what does physical strength have to do with telepathic talent ? I am talking totally in terms of telepathic power, nothing physical at all.

[kyli]

faey fighter pilots not only need superior flight capability, but a certain degree of strength to get accepted to the corps.

But what does physical strength have to do with telepathic talent ? I am talking totally in terms of telepathic power, nothing physical at all.

I assume he was talking about telepathic strength, not physical.
I could de wrong though.

[The Thing]

I assume he was talking about telepathic strength, not physical. I could be wrong though.

Well it doesn't matter, would it. Whether physical or telepathic, even if you are very strong and go up against 10+ weaker opponents at the same time, just due to the sheer number you will be over whelmed and defeated.