Earth Bond Chapter 14 Discussion (spoilers!)

[GBLW]

Second one, not so much. 747s have flown in comparable situations for several minutes without harm.

Unfortunately, you're only minimally right. 747s can fly through an exceptionally THIN cloud of volcanic dust, but a thicker cloud of volcanic dust will destroy a jet engine. Volcanic dust is made up of fine particles of rock - when it hits a jet engine the heat of combustion inside the engine melts the rock, which is then deposited on the turbine blades in the aft portion of the engine. This deposit throws the turbine out of balance and that unbalanced condition combined with centrifugal force destroys the engine.

By the way, a pyroclastic flow is not just abrasive, it is also EXTREMELY hot - something like 1500 degrees (if I remember correctly). I saw what the pyroclastic flow from the eruption of Mount St. Helens in Washington State did - it wiped out a whole forest in minutes, destroying animals, plants, lakes, streams, bulldozers, logging trucks, cars, pickups and people - everything for miles and miles and miles. Three words describe the scene that was left behind - "Hell on Earth!"

[Fel]

Correct, pyroclastic flows are very, very, VERY hot. In the instances where people have been killed by them, they're killed almost instantly from the heat. Fortunately, they didn't live long enough to suffer.

And you're also right about what particulates do to jet engines, but it's not all they so. The jets have have flown through volcanic ash have also had their cockpit windshields sandblasted to the point where the pilots couldn't see through them.

Anti's right about the first form of earth dragon breath weapons being far more destructive and dangerous. Not only is it carrying the physical force of having all that mass, lava is also very sticky and will cling to whatever it hits. It IS like napalm...that's a very good comparison. And the sheer heat can kill people meters away, even if they don't get hit by it, since the lava super-heats the air, and if you breathe in that air, it literally cooks your lungs.

But, that being said, the second form is also extremely dangerous in that they can use the second form way more times before they run out of "fuel."

[Greymist]

Do you mean laminated diamond Fel? Crystal diamond shatters easily, and also burns horribly once it gets going. At roughly the melting point of rock come to mention it. Nano-tube chainmail and whisker-iron are also ridiculously tough theoretical materials made from very common elements if you need them.

If we're looking for natural-ish materials with a high tensile strength, could choose Boron or Basalt Fibres, which both are stronger than diamond (in terms of tensile strength)*.

*According to Wikipedia

[afrigeek]

Finally, there is a simple way to stop the Earth Dragons from getting into human computers. Physically isolate Hawai from the rest of the internet.
http://www.extremetech.com/computing/96 ... ine-cables
And some modern ships don't actually have propellors anymore.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Littoral_combat_ship
Silly dragons...

To physically isolate Hawaii from the rest of the internet would cause a huge outcry from the residents as one would also have blocked them from all the content thereon and their internet would also not work locally unless they put a local root dns server.

As for the Littoral combat ships, they are rather structurally weak making them very easy to sink and they not that many of them yet anyway.

[Dreamer]

Correct, pyroclastic flows are very, very, VERY hot. In the instances where people have been killed by them, they're killed almost instantly from the heat. Fortunately, they didn't live long enough to suffer.

And you're also right about what particulates do to jet engines, but it's not all they so. The jets have have flown through volcanic ash have also had their cockpit windshields sandblasted to the point where the pilots couldn't see through them.

Anti's right about the first form of earth dragon breath weapons being far more destructive and dangerous. Not only is it carrying the physical force of having all that mass, lava is also very sticky and will cling to whatever it hits. It IS like napalm...that's a very good comparison. And the sheer heat can kill people meters away, even if they don't get hit by it, since the lava super-heats the air, and if you breathe in that air, it literally cooks your lungs.

But, that being said, the second form is also extremely dangerous in that they can use the second form way more times before they run out of "fuel."

If I remember correctly, pyroclastic clouds also are extremely acidic due to sulphur compounds (H2S being the worst one that I remember) which coombine with H2O in the atmosphere. So . . . sandblaster at temperatures that can melt steel and an acid wash all in one . . . Anyone else want to see this in action (from a few hundred miles away)?

[Seastallion]

Interestingly, the Animal Planet show, "Dragons: A Fantasy made Real", described dragons as eating platinum, to use as a catalyst for their fire breath. It was a show that attempted to explain how dragons might have been real and still be able to do the things attributed to them, through inventive biological processes. Like birds, they were described as having honeycomb like, hollow bones. In addition, aside from lungs, they had 'flight bladders' filled with hydrogen, that was also used for their breath weapon, but also why it was used sparingly. Otherwise the dragon wouldn't be able to fly until it was replenished if too much was used. The hydrogen bladders were filled by a specialized bacteria in the dragons stomach that helped the dragons metabolize their food, and released hydrogen as a byproduct. In the show the dragons would have descended from ancient dinosaur dragons, that escaped the extinction of the dinosaurs by one branch having evolved to become water dragons. (The only large creatures during the age of dinosaurs to survive were mainly water dwelling creatures.) Then those water dragons eventually began to return to land, to hunt, as their weren't any other predators to compete with them on land right after the extinction. Eventually, in the show, the dragons were hunted to extinction.

The whole show was fiction, but it did give some very impressive examples of how dragons COULD have been real, and still followed natural rules of biology and fit into the theory of evolution. The eating platinum thing was also a theory as to why dragons were attributed to be protective of hordes of treasures. The dragons would've stayed in such territories with platinum deposits to be able to utilize their breath weapon.

[SYED]

I wonder if they can create different unique effects with their breath weapons depending on what materials they eat, and in what amount? All water dragons absorb is water, while earth dragons can eat all kind of rocks or metals? THey could produce flamable or explosive breath attacks if they used the more unstable or reactive elements?

[ANTIcarrot]

To physically isolate Hawaii from the rest of the internet would cause a huge outcry from the residents as one would also have blocked them from all the content thereon and their internet would also not work locally unless they put a local root dns server.

Declaring ATC_Zero in the hours after 911 caused a lot of inconvenience too. Compare and contrast doing so BEFORE the attack. The Earth Dragons have the ability and motivation to permanantly cripple America's infrastructure, along with every other nation on the planet, combined with the twin delusions that they are invaulnerable to counterstrike, and that such actions would be morally correct. To a combat pragmatist like myself, that's the same combination that Al'Quaida had. On this occasion, Hawaii can bloody well take a short term hit for the team.

As for the Littoral combat ships, they are rather structurally weak making them very easy to sink and they not that many of them yet anyway.

I think you know about as much about naval architecture as the Dragons do. Which is kinda my point.The dragons seeem to only think they understand what they are planning. I really don't think they've put any thought into how you 'catch' a 20 ton spinning blade, or how the prop shaft inside the ship will react if you do.

[ANTIcarrot]

I saw what the pyroclastic flow from the eruption of Mount St. Helens in Washington State did - it wiped out a whole forest in minutes, destroying animals, plants, lakes, streams, bulldozers, logging trucks, cars, pickups and people

If you're fighting an earth dragon with pickup trucks and people you've got bigger problems than a pyroclastic flow. At close range, armoured vehicles have 'thermal soak'. (Read 'thermal inertia'.) A thirty tonne box of steel will not jump from 15*C to 1500*C instantly just because a dragon coughs on it. Long before it does so, it will be shooting back and the dragon will have issues of its own to worry about.

At long range I can probably hit and cause hidious damage to an earth dragon with any number of small arms (and special bullets) at 100m+ range. I'd be surprised if its breath weapon can go that far. Also, how well can EDs see in the dark? Not that I'm expressing a strong desire for the humans and dragons to start kicking the ever living lava out of each other, but with modern knowledge and technology, Dragons of any kind simply aren't that scary. Consider how much effort the dragons put into reassuring each other the puny humans can't hurt them in the traditional ways, and how little concearn they spend on non traditional ways. Silly dragons have much to learn in Way of Not Getting Arse Kicked.

[SYED]

ED are immune to radioactive material, so I wonder if they ate then vomited it, would it still be dangerous or could it be safe for use. I wonde what material, alloy or compound they could make using this technique.

[afrigeek]

Declaring ATC_Zero in the hours after 911 caused a lot of inconvenience too. Compare and contrast doing so BEFORE the attack. The Earth Dragons have the ability and motivation to permanantly cripple America's infrastructure, along with every other nation on the planet, combined with the twin delusions that they are invaulnerable to counterstrike, and that such actions would be morally correct. To a combat pragmatist like myself, that's the same combination that Al'Quaida had. On this occasion, Hawaii can bloody well take a short term hit for the team.

They would still retain satellite capability. And while that would add a latency of about 300-500ms to their operations, it is not really a big deal.

As for the Littoral combat ships, they are rather structurally weak making them very easy to sink and they not that many of them yet anyway.
I think you know about as much about naval architecture as the Dragons do. Which is kinda my point.The dragons seeem to only think they understand what they are planning. I really don't think they've put any thought into how you 'catch' a 20 ton spinning blade, or how the prop shaft inside the ship will react if you do.

I am taking this from recent reports by the navy to congress about those new ship types which they themselves admit that LCS ships have a very low tolerance for damage. They can't take a punch well. They are aluminium ships and the navy itself says that the LCS ships would not meet even Level I standards which is lower than the level II standards of most frigates. If one exocet missile can sink them then I think the dragons can sink them easily too.

As for propellers, you're assuming the water dragons are going to rip them off using their paws or something and forgetting their ability to do water magic. To use the water itself to rip off rudders or propellers by means of magic.

[ettoren]

As for propellers, you're assuming the water dragons are going to rip them off using their paws or something and forgetting their ability to do water magic. To use the water itself to rip off rudders or propellers by means of magic.

Or use magic to change the properties of the water, or remove the water all together, to eliminate propulsion. I don't think the WD's were implying they were going to manually remove the props, just that they could render the prop ineffectual through various means.

[Phantom]

As for propellers, you're assuming the water dragons are going to rip them off using their paws or something and forgetting their ability to do water magic. To use the water itself to rip off rudders or propellers by means of magic.

Or use magic to change the properties of the water, or remove the water all together, to eliminate propulsion. I don't think the WD's were implying they were going to manually remove the props, just that they could render the prop ineffectual through various means.

Actually all the WD's need to do is remove the Salt from the water.

Changing the water under the ship from Salt water to Flesh water would cause the ship would lose it's boyancy and cause the ship to sink.

I saw what the pyroclastic flow from the eruption of Mount St. Helens in Washington State did - it wiped out a whole forest in minutes, destroying animals, plants, lakes, streams, bulldozers, logging trucks, cars, pickups and people

If you're fighting an earth dragon with pickup trucks and people you've got bigger problems than a pyroclastic flow. At close range, armoured vehicles have 'thermal soak'. (Read 'thermal inertia'.) A thirty tonne box of steel will not jump from 15*C to 1500*C instantly just because a dragon coughs on it. Long before it does so, it will be shooting back and the dragon will have issues of its own to worry about.

At long range I can probably hit and cause hidious damage to an earth dragon with any number of small arms (and special bullets) at 100m+ range. I'd be surprised if its breath weapon can go that far. Also, how well can EDs see in the dark? Not that I'm expressing a strong desire for the humans and dragons to start kicking the ever living lava out of each other, but with modern knowledge and technology, Dragons of any kind simply aren't that scary. Consider how much effort the dragons put into reassuring each other the puny humans can't hurt them in the traditional ways, and how little concearn they spend on non traditional ways. Silly dragons have much to learn in Way of Not Getting Arse Kicked.

the Problem with that is Humans wanting to Attack Dragons on thier Island would need to Import Armor (Ship it in) what little they might be able to get
to the Island would only be very light weight stuff at best.

So at best your Thermal Soak wouldn't be a big one....and most of what Armor could be airlifted in would mostly be made of Magnisium...want to see what breath weapons will do to that ?

As for how well ED's can see in the dark..... Remeber they have built in Thermal Sights......thats why they had problems seeing very far underwater.
but seeing total darkness was another story.

then add in Distance ....When they can tunnel in underneath and pop up right under or next to your tank, troops or what ever.
Your hitting from a distance isn't going to mean much.

and remeber all the time your doing this your getting Hit from the air as well.

And No ones talked about The AD's being able to control the weather yet.




Phantom

[NSC]

I was thinking that the Earth Dragon breath weapon would be some form of anti-magic, but I was wrong.

I'm curious about all the clear shankers though. After that explanation of why different colors happened, this would seem to indicate that the information was inaccurate.

I look for First to eventually solve the conflict and wind up as the new council chromatic when this story concludes.

[hoppy]

I am taking this from recent reports by the navy to congress about those new ship types which they themselves admit that LCS ships have a very low tolerance for damage. They can't take a punch well. They are aluminium ships and the navy itself says that the LCS ships would not meet even Level I standards which is lower than the level II standards of most frigates. If one exocet missile can sink them then I think the dragons can sink them easily too.

As for propellers, you're assuming the water dragons are going to rip them off using their paws or something and forgetting their ability to do water magic. To use the water itself to rip off rudders or propellers by means of magic.

The LCS ships also have endurance limitations due to small crew size and underway maintenance limitations(In other words they spend more time in port because the crew can't keep up with maintenance by itself and some repairs and maintenance are physically impossible.) On top of that the mission module system has not proven itself so far. Then there is the fact that LCS ships weapon systems are less powerful than most frigates.