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This was a very good chapter. Rescuing those poor Lupans was a very good thing to do!

Great Chapter. Two points.

1. Timing is everything. Did the spirits decide that now was a good time for Kyven to be distracted with other matters, so some events could occur without interference?

2. There is a subtle suggestion in this chapter that the substance of Kyven's illusions is drawn as much from the observers as from his own power. Thus they can only affect the real world if enough observers believe that they can.

expedient wrote:2. There is a subtle suggestion in this chapter that the substance of Kyven's illusions is drawn as much from the observers as from his own power. Thus they can only affect the real world if enough observers believe that they can.

Not sure exactly where it was--and I'm too lazy this morning to go find it--but that was stated pretty much flat out when Kyven was learning illusions. Again, not exactly sure, but I think it was when he was training in Haven.

You're right, of course. Here's what I mean in more detail:

Short Version
Before I felt that the trigger that made the illusions real came from those that it affected. Now I'm interpreting it as they are also aiding in the powering of those illusions that have real substance.

Quick Analogy
It's a bit like realising that a radio sends and receives a power source not just a signal; thereby the technology will scale to full power transmission.

Long-winded Version
Where I feel that things are different is when Kyven was learning about this aspect of his illusions the implication was that a person would feel and react to his illusions. The body would injure and die from illusionary weapons. In this chapter Kyven's illusion was smashing apart non-sentient wooden fortifications until the Loreguard realised it was an illusion. It was as if the soldiers were powering the substance of the illusion to affect the real world through their belief.

Before, with the fire illusion in Riyan when his illusions first became real on a large scale, my interpretation was that Kyven was making his illusions real by putting more and more detail into their construction so that they were accepted. Now it seems there is a further stage where the acceptance of the illusion causes the observers to help power them, not just to be affected by them.

In retrospect maybe this maybe should have been apparent but there is a subtle distinction.

Kinda both are correct.

Kyven can instill substance into an illusion by creating it with such detail that it looks so real that it BECOMES real, but remember, behind that is Kyven himself. The shadow fox taught him that HIS belief in an illusion if the fundamental cornerstone of making an illusion intrude into reality. When he can put so much of himself into the illusion that it passes every test of reality, then it crosses over that border and begins to affect the real world...and he puts himself into the illusion with its detail.

It's like art. The illusion is the medium, and Kyven is the artist. When he puts his soul into his creation, it becomes a masterpiece. And in illusion terms, a masterpiece intrudes into reality.

On the other tack, other viewers of an illusion CAN affect it, like you saw in the chapter. The more people who believe an illusion is real, the more reinforcement it gets, and the more it allows the illusion to intrude into reality. The fire at Riyan is a good example. So many people saw it that they believed that it was real, and that helped MAKE it real, allowing Kyven to weave reality into the illusion without as much effort (though he had to put a hell of a lot of effort into it because it was so big). But, on the other side of it, when people lose their belief in the illusion like what happened at Durm, then the illusion is nothing but an image, a painting without any soul.

Belief reinforces the illusion's ability to become real. It starts with Kyven, but it ends with those who look upon it.

The shadow dimension:

Kyven has figured out how to control them now. However, it's just going to become a game of oneupmanship as the creatures get around his attempts and Kyven comes up with new ones.

I wonder what they actually are. Two thoughts.

1: Can Kyven just do his 'become a solid shadow' trick and bypass them because he is no longer a person?

2: What happens if Kyven controls them enough to throw them out a converged gate back into reality?

Lochar wrote:The shadow dimension:

Kyven has figured out how to control them now. However, it's just going to become a game of oneupmanship as the creatures get around his attempts and Kyven comes up with new ones.

I wonder what they actually are. Two thoughts.

1: Can Kyven just do his 'become a solid shadow' trick and bypass them because he is no longer a person?

Clever. It's a spoiler, but it's also a cookie. Yes, he can "stealth" past the things using this trick. He figures it out later.

2: What happens if Kyven controls them enough to throw them out a converged gate back into reality?

They can't survive in the real world. If he forced them out, they'd die.

Both of which become a perfect method to control them. Either he bypasses them when he's alone, or if he's travelling with people the threat of death should keep them back.

*chomp chomp* Thanks for the cookie.

Did no one else notice that there was a marriage contracted in this chapter? Is that not what it means when Kyven arranged and agreed to a bride price?

I wonder if the Shadow Fox is planning anything with this? I am sure Danna is going to have a few words to say yet too!

This was quite the chapter. Fel could start 2 new books from this one alone (.. . or maybe 3?)

Doesn't matter. The girl is a totem shaman of another spirit, so the shadow fox can't get her claws in this one.

Besides, there is an actual need for human shamans. Kyven rides the border of actually being one because of the shadow fox. At the moment, there's only two 100% all the time human shamans, and one of them is probably about 4 months old right now.

THe city must have a huge collection of alchemical weapons, and they are fighting from a fortified position. Kyvern need to make the batlle almost mutual annihilation with the city falling. THe best way is to let the lore guard keep fighting, but every so often, blant a black crystal device so it kills a barrack or two, so man power loses will hurt them. SAY he get a bunch of sniper arcans into the city, could hurt the army control. Plant bombs on every bridge inthe city, will cripple movement.

Kvern can barter human shaman, via the new girl, that would be valuable to the spirit.

figured out the best way to force the seige into self annihilation and mutual human destruction. For a seige to be held, the city needs to have enough food and material, to last. Black crystal weaponry, as well as causing instant death, also destroys all organic matter, like that small bomb to destroy the body of a touched human, make big ones to attack the stores and the wood, they dont have to kill any one, just force them to attack to break the seige. The city may have stone walls but how much of the city has wood. say they freeze the river free access to the city.

Lochar wrote:Doesn't matter. The girl is a totem shaman of another spirit, so the shadow fox can't get her claws in this one.

Besides, there is an actual need for human shamans. Kyven rides the border of actually being one because of the shadow fox. At the moment, there's only two 100% all the time human shamans, and one of them is probably about 4 months old right now.

Good for her as well.

WIll we see other totem shaman, like a speacial op team, get some death shaman, those that powers are mimic by black crystals. to partner with kyvern so cause huge amounts of damage.

A way to help the war, yet build good will, let the shamans heal any human that comes to them, so more chance of them dieing in a fight, also people would like shamen better if known for being to heal a lot.

Summon earth and water spirits, so influence the river and harbour, as well as be able to get into the sewers. AIr spirits could help suppress any air craft.

Say kvern goes into the city and starts setting fires, so force to fight them or war.

Arcans will act as snipers with britton riffles, so city under constant attack even in night.

ASk the earth spirits to map the mountains of minerals and elements, as well as make sure that only through a few passage is travel through the moountains are possible. THe surveys would buy alot of good will, and possible source of resources.

The thing is this seige doesnt have to cripple the armies, simply break lore guard power and start the whittling down of armies. There is still the war over the crystal mines to come. Is it possible the lore masters will simply say the shaman have sources of crystal to encourage them to target the arcans.

I think shaman are the result of a species continual exposure to spirit energies, so it is likly there are many potential shamans around due to the wide spread use of them, espeacially in the alchemy city. I wonder if part of kyverns tasks will be to gather those humans who while not shaman, are spirit touched so safe from danger and will hopfully produce actual shamans one day.

At the seige, kyvern can meet with all the human commanders of each country to establish a dialogue and deals. arrange to sell some crystals to give the smaller nations a chance to stand against the big ones. extend the war so the more militarised forces are worn out.

What happened to the collared arcans, were they freed or taken away.

There is no way that they can stop an army from trying to get to haven, so find places between the human territories and arcan that are defendable and create forts, they just freed thousands of slaves so no man power issues. so if humans want to invade they must first try to take these fortifications