"Secession-"- your thoughts please

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dellstart
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"Secession-"- your thoughts please

Post by dellstart »

To quote the master

...work on Secession, the next mini-novella in the Subjugation series...

well now this has a lot of intriguing possibilities, but firstly ,lets look at the simple meaning


Secession (derived from the Latin term secessio) is the act of withdrawing from an organization, union, or especially a political entity. Threats of secession also can be a strategy for achieving more limited goals.[1]


Types of secession

Secession theorists have described a number of ways in which a political entity (city, county, canton, state) can secede from the larger or original state:

* Secession from federation or confederation (political entities with substantial reserved powers which have agreed to join together) versus secession from a unitary state (a state governed as a single unit with few powers reserved to sub-units)
* National (seceding entirely from the national state) versus local (seceding from one entity of the national state into another entity of the same state)
* Central or enclave (seceding entity is completely surrounded by the original state) versus peripheral (along a border of the original state)
* Secession by contiguous units versus secession by non-contiguous units (exclaves)
* Separation or partition (although an entity secedes, the rest of the state retains its structure) versus dissolution (all political entities dissolve their ties and create several new states)
* Irredentism where secession is sought in order to annex the territory to another state because of common ethnicity or prior historical links
* Minority (a minority of the population or territory secedes) versus majority (a majority of the population or territory secedes)
* Secession of better off regions versus secession of worse off regions
* The threat of Secession sometimes is used as a strategy to gain greater autonomy within the original state




Justifications for secession

Some theories of secession emphasize a general right of secession for any reason (“Choice Theory") while others emphasize that secession should be considered only to rectify grave injustices (“Just Cause Theory”).[6] Some theories do both. A list of justifications may be presented supporting the right to secede, as described by Allen Buchanan, Robert McGee, Anthony Birch,[7] Walter Williams,[8] Jane Jacobs,[9] Frances Kendall and Leon Louw,[10] Leopold Kohr,[11] Kirkpatrick Sale,[12] and various authors in David Gordon’s “Secession, State and Liberty,” includes:

* United States President James Buchanan, Fourth Annual Message to Congress on the State of the Union December 3, 1860: "The fact is that our Union rests upon public opinion, and can never be cemented by the blood of its citizens shed in civil war. If it can not live in the affections of the people, it must one day perish. Congress possesses many means of preserving it by conciliation, but the sword was not placed in their hand to preserve it by force."
* United States President Thomas Jefferson: "If any state in the Union will declare that it prefers separation...to a continuance in union... I have no hesitation in saying, 'let us separate.' "[13]
* The right to liberty, freedom of association and private property
* Consent as important democratic principle; will of majority to secede should be recognized
* Making it easier for states to join with others in an experimental union
* Dissolving such union when goals for which it was constituted are not achieved
* Self-defense when larger group presents lethal threat to minority or the government cannot adequately defend an area
* Self-determination of peoples
* Preserving culture, language, etc. from assimilation or destruction by a larger or more powerful group
* Furthering diversity by allowing diverse cultures to keep their identity
* Rectifying past injustices, especially past conquest by a larger power
* Escaping “discriminatory redistribution,” i.e., tax schemes, regulatory policies, economic programs, etc. that distribute resources away to another area, especially in an undemocratic fashion
* Enhanced efficiency when the state or empire becomes too large to administer efficiently
* Preserving “liberal purity” (or “conservative purity”) by allowing less (or more) liberal regions to secede
* Providing superior constitutional systems which allow flexibility of secession
* Keeping political entities small and human scale through right to secession

Aleksandar Pavkovic,[14] associate professor at the Department of Politics and International Studies at Macquarie University in Australia and the author of several books on secession describes five justifications for a general right of secession within liberal political theory:[15]

* Anarcho-Capitalism: individual liberty to form political associations and private property rights together justify right to secede and to create a “viable political order” with like-minded individuals.
* Democratic Secessionism: the right of secession, as a variant of the right of self-determination, is vested in a “territorial community” which wishes to secede from “their existing political community”; the group wishing to secede then proceeds to delimit “its” territory by the majority.
* Communitarian Secessionism: any group with a particular “participation-enhancing” identity, concentrated in a particular territory, which desires to improve its members’ political participation has a prima facie right to secede.
* Cultural Secessionism: any group which was previously in a minority has a right to protect and develop its own culture and distinct national identity through seceding into an independent state.
* The Secessionism of Threatened Cultures: if a minority culture is threatened within a state that has a majority culture, the minority needs a right to form a state of its own which would protect its culture.


see more at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secession


lots of food for thought aint it :wink: :!:
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Re: "Secession-"- your thoughts please

Post by SYED »

EIther the confederation will suffer internal strife or one of the two bad guys has groups trying to get away, servant races or moderates of the bad guys.
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Re: "Secession-"- your thoughts please

Post by TLGG »

Or the Karinnes will finally take over the universe. And I don't doubt Fel dropped the hint just to spark this ridiculous theory.

Or. The baddies. The ones in the milky way will join the confederation to fight off their enemies here!
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Re: "Secession-"- your thoughts please

Post by lapland »

Don't forget the coalition is a unified body currently thus qualifies if Jason decides to withdraw. It usually though means conflict, but not really much if it's only a mini novel. It could also be a body within Kerrinnes that seperates, such as Earth becoming independant, though not likely. It could also be the exiles, now that they are self seffecient, they probably would like to be seperate from the greater Kerrinne government. Jason may decide to pull the Kerrinnes out of the Imperium to keep the independance that others don't want him to have. Or it could be another house, perhaps one that has sided with the enemy one too many times.

In any reguards there are lots of options based on the information received so far, but the fact is, there is still much to learn from the current series that will provide a bases for the future events, and only the master of perveyers himself named Fel knows all.
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Re: "Secession-"- your thoughts please

Post by expedient »

Fel is the master of leading us in one direction and then throwing in a huge twist. :twisted: We are at a point in the current story where it is impossible to predict what's going to happen. Most of us expect the Confederation to "win" against the current Consortium forces in the galaxy but they may not, or at least not in an expected way.

The other side of the coin is the Generations themselves. What happens when they show what they can really do? The kind of things which Fel has hinted at. Dahnai has been accommodating so far with Jason but as soon as he shows his true hand all bets are off. Not just her either, she may have no choice but to try to control the Generations or lose the Imperium. If she doesn't anyway during the course of the story. Will Terra be caught in the middle of any attempt to control the Generations?

The Karinnes are outnumbered. The Confederation is outnumbered. The Consortium is close to collapse. The Syndicate are coming. Who knows what secrets the Kimdori hold. We still haven't seen what the Generations are truly capable of or what ultimate potential the original Karinnes saw in them. :?
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Re: "Secession-"- your thoughts please

Post by Wolfee »

expedient wrote:The other side of the coin is the Generations themselves. What happens when they show what they can really do? The kind of things which Fel has hinted at. Dahnai has been accommodating so far with Jason but as soon as he shows his true hand all bets are off. Not just her either, she may have no choice but to try to control the Generations or lose the Imperium. If she doesn't anyway during the course of the story. Will Terra be caught in the middle of any attempt to control the Generations?
I don't think your going far enough with the what Jason and the generations can do... Imagine a purpose build capital ship, multiple generations manning multiple capital class biogenic relays. Some play offense, destroying everything in range, others play defense destroying fighters and incoming missiles. Lastly and this one might not play into the physics of Fel's universe, others might even be able to form a shield of pure force and deflect or absorb incoming energy fire and missile hits. Leaving the normal shields till they need a break.

Imagine what a CBIM purpose built for war with a child, now almost a teenager, Kyri could do... If you though they where afraid of Jason when he used the biogenic relays with Cybi... Imagine what Kyri and a CBIM (appropriately named something like Nike, Athena, Star Slayer or something appropriately Fay could do.

Secession doesn't necessarily mean with drawing from any military or political body.... what if the Karrines withdraw from the galaxy, from reality to a different dimension or to a different star system... could they move Karis if they wanted?

Or maybe they withdraw from the confederation before conquering it.... I'm sure Fel could come up with reasons why for Jason... But whatever Fel does I'm sure in the end there will be a happy ending for the majority of our favorite characters.
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Re: "Secession-"- your thoughts please

Post by DigitalMaestro »

Wolfee wrote:I don't think your going far enough with the what Jason and the generations can do... Imagine a purpose build capital ship, multiple generations manning multiple capital class biogenic relays. Some play offense, destroying everything in range, others play defense destroying fighters and incoming missiles. Lastly and this one might not play into the physics of Fel's universe, others might even be able to form a shield of pure force and deflect or absorb incoming energy fire and missile hits. Leaving the normal shields till they need a break.

Imagine what a CBIM purpose built for war with a child, now almost a teenager, Kyri could do... If you though they where afraid of Jason when he used the biogenic relays with Cybi... Imagine what Kyri and a CBIM (appropriately named something like Nike, Athena, Star Slayer or something appropriately Fay could do.
OOooooooo... this could be so awesome! It would take a few years to build up the Generation populus in the military, but could be oh so much fun! Perhaps in a sequel...
Wolfee wrote:Secession doesn't necessarily mean with drawing from any military or political body.... what if the Karrines withdraw from the galaxy, from reality to a different dimension or to a different star system... could they move Karis if they wanted?
Moving the planet would be a surprisingly, characteristically Karrine solution to isolation. They might use the PPG technology to create a private "Karrine Only" pocket of space.

I love this series! The science is so "ridiculous" it allows for massively amazing potential threads of thought.

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Re: "Secession-"- your thoughts please

Post by Mizriath »

Ok. The story based on Fel's endings is implying that some in the confederacy will secede from the confederation. If that is what Fel trying to make us think.

Betrayal... not Dahnai that I can think of, sure she wants the technology which she has always been trying. The Betrayal I suppose will come from, my guess, Verutans.... just a wild guess that they are from another sector that joined the confederacy and then betray.
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Re: "Secession-"- your thoughts please

Post by SYED »

Once the confed has re taken their systems, if they wish to go on the offensive, then they need jason to get a gate to jason forward operating base, then in that system, build a jump catapult or a mass catapult, to allow their ships to travel out the system. WOuld force those that want to fight now to join the karinne house forces. SO possible zion, skaa, and the five alliance races will join. There must be tech that is radilogically unsound, so only kimdore and jakan can use it safely.

WIll other nations ask to join. WIll karrinne get access to confed tech databases and systems. Skaa anti matter tech, alliance sensor tech.

Jason know to ensure survival and keep the people allive, they all have to work together. Will he be forced to conquer a nation being dangerously selfish and unwise. How big are there new allies by the way?

TO the andromeda galaxcy is a five year journey correct, imagine the industrial out put of the confederation, in ships and weaponry.
This way next time a fleet comes here, they will arrive in a place, surrounded by ships and weaponry.
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Re: "Secession-"- your thoughts please

Post by ANTIcarrot »

SYED wrote:Jason know to ensure survival and keep the people allive, they all have to work together.
Yes! We must all sacrafice and work together! Just as long as one of us doesn't have to sacrafice very much at all...

Maybe we're over thinking it. Karrinne has always been an Imperium House, but for a long time it has been an Imperium house in name only. In practical terms it's already as independent as Moridon. Maybe Jason just makes the arrangement formal. After all, once the Faey population drops below 50%, why should he stay?

Though if we're going to include requests as thoughts:
Could we possibly have a little less in the way of pornography please? It would be nice to go five minutes without a mention of breasts or bottoms or what a great lay everyone else is.
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Re: "Secession-"- your thoughts please

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THe attacked races want revenge, to do so they need a high class milittary. THe shio needs to rebuild, yet expand it military due to their great affinity for interfaces. THey need better tech to use to make best of their connection. DUe to karrine help, they could consider joining the imperium. THe empress would make greyhawk a noble, similar to jason ruling earth. Representing 4 systems, is a very good position for a house. IT wont be high born position, but pretty high. THey would they get free access to faey military tech. be an allied house to the karrines. Jason and the makati and kizzik would welcome more non faey nobles, as it would help them stem the worst aspect of faey nobility.
first the races join via the house, then realed in to the imperium.

zygar are the wolverine people right
jobodi giant yeti people with large hands
the five alliance races
jakan- radio active skeletons
bari bari are monkey like
stevaki, bird like people
shurai
beryans
the alliance will go through great up heaval, it had been warned of the invasion, but did not stop it. It had been conquered, so the races may react diffenty to each other. the stevaki, will be in great numbers for fighter operations.

collonists- roswell greys with hair
skaa- godzilla people
urumni- has an exoskeleton

how will the con fed take the war on the offensive, if they can travel out side the gate network tactically. THey will all atempt to aquire the mass catapult tech for themselves. karrines would still retain the advantage. also very hard to wage a conservative war with this kind of catapult.

20000 ship to be dealt with. IN a stand up battle, say 2 million fighters to deal with the ships. FInd spots like that nebula, to lure the consortium to jump in and destroyed, Set gates up so allow access able traveling.
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Re: "Secession-"- your thoughts please

Post by ANTIcarrot »

SYED wrote:how will the con fed take the war on the offensive, if they can travel out side the gate network tactically.
Two possibilities spring to mind:
A single stargate (yes, the mile wide things) fitted with a karrinne hyperdrive engine.
A small mass produced tug designed to push/tow non-karrinne ships and let them keep up with Jason's fleet.
Last edited by ANTIcarrot on Mon Mar 28, 2011 3:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Secession-"- your thoughts please

Post by DigitalMaestro »

ANTIcarrot wrote:A single stargate (yes, the file wide things) fitted with a karrinne hyperdrive engine.
Actually, a "gate ship" would make an enormous amount of sense. That concept would allow for 1 crew to be unavailable for the travel time to whatever point in the galaxy/universe rather than a full armada and it would be an instant foothold. Also, that ship could contain an interdictor ready to be activated upon arrival. This would be a great invasion/scouting vessel, although it would have to be huge... which actually makes sense for a ship on a long-term mission, to provide maximum space for its crew....

Oh, the possibilities....

-DM
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Re: "Secession-"- your thoughts please

Post by SYED »

SO stronger telepathy and telekinesis, by him self.
Can use his telepathy to commune with another., imagine a super smart jason.
SO only his brain has the kimdori shape changing ability due to the virus cells, will he be able to use the full brain capacity.
Will he be able to use colonist empathy, and use pari pari shaman ability.
If jason ever learns of the change, will he ban it from every one, give it to all, just his kids, or just his heir, a secret asset for the karrine house.
Are there any other unique alien mental abilities out there?
could he control those insect allies of his like one of their nobles, or able to access them telepathicly. CAn he access telepathicly blind individuals, is he now a telepath who can read kimdori.
THe biogenic relay amplyfy his telekinesis and telepathy, imagine using empathy to affect the emotions of his enemies and allies, use shamanistic skills on a fleet scale, be able to use his insect control over the armies of the consortium.
Say he get that mind machien interface in his head, using his relays to amplyfy it so he can literally control the enemies ships.

that command ship being build, what if they removed the weapons, and reffited it with a catapult. allows them to send ships allong. WIth karrine science could they refit a gate, to can move when active, or can connect to network easily. IT takes the big ships to move gates right, well it also takes the big ships to move a station. WHat if they built a station built in gate. The gate need not be capable of allowing all ships just enough to satisfy the military, the gate would have to be quickly move so ships that used for raids or ambushes. the big ships are only really needed in full scale battles. WHat if the gate system could be recreated, using a bunch of emitters or satelites, something that creates a circle of energy, similar to B5 jump gates.
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Re: "Secession-"- your thoughts please

Post by Fel »

DigitalMaestro wrote:
ANTIcarrot wrote:A single stargate (yes, the file wide things) fitted with a karrinne hyperdrive engine.
Actually, a "gate ship" would make an enormous amount of sense. That concept would allow for 1 crew to be unavailable for the travel time to whatever point in the galaxy/universe rather than a full armada and it would be an instant foothold. Also, that ship could contain an interdictor ready to be activated upon arrival. This would be a great invasion/scouting vessel, although it would have to be huge... which actually makes sense for a ship on a long-term mission, to provide maximum space for its crew....

Oh, the possibilities....

-DM
Cute idea, but it wouldn't work, for two reasons:

1: Remember that although they have little mass compared to other constructions their size, Stargates are HUGE. It's a titanic concentric circle whose diameter must be larger than any ship that tries to pass through it. Think about it, if a Stargate is large enough for a command ship class ship to pass through it, then it is LARGER than the command ship. It takes a really, really big ship to tow one through hyperspace. To put jump engines on something that big would require them to make it even bigger (remember, for anyone but the Karinnes a jump engine takes up a huge amount of a ship's volume, and even for the Karinnes a jump engine is about 15% of the ship's available volume), which would take even longer for them to build them, etc. etc. etc. It's easier for them to just call in a couple of battleships and tow one than to try to put engines on it. The light mass of a Stargate makes it towable by ships smaller than itself.

2: Stargates are anchored to space in a way that makes them almost impossible to move once they're set up and operating, and it's not just "flip a switch" start up/shutdown. That's why it takes so long for a Stargate to "stage" once it gets where it's going, anchor itself into a position relative to a point in dynamic space (not absolute space), and even after it's staged, it has to link to another Stargate, and that takes a few hours depending on how far away the other Stargate is (believe it or not, the further away the other Stargate is, the faster they can link. It can take 10 hours to link Stargates within 10 light years of each other, but it would only take about an hour to link Stargates 1,000 light years apart). Since Stargates can't move for a long time when they're setting up or being prepared to be moved, putting engines on them really isn't that practical. Again, it's just easier for them to call in a battleship or two and tow it once it's movable.

Now, you have hit on something that might be viable, and viable enough to introduce it into the story later on...a dedicated Stargate tug that can attach itself to the Stargate and tow it. Basically a big module with engines that connects to the Stargate and is controlled by the Stargate's command staff itself.

I'll think about it. ;)
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