Shadow Walker Chapter 4 (Spoilers*)

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Ledsmith
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Re: Shadow Walker Chapter 4 (Spoilers*)

Post by Ledsmith »

GBLW wrote:do you think Lightfoot finishes the job of burning down the house where they lived and manages to escape, or will she be caught and used as a 'weapon' to blackmail Kyven?
If Lightfoot was caught it is highly unlikely that using her safety to force Kyven into stuff would work.
A) Kyven knows the loremasters are lying backstabbing asses that would never keep thier word regarding any promises of safety for Lightfoot.
B) Lightfoot is ready to die for the cause, Kyven knows this, and as we all know "sometimes there are no happy endings." So Kyven would most likely let Lightfoot die. After all that is all any Arcan can hope for, dying for the reason of their choosing.
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Re: Shadow Walker Chapter 4 (Spoilers*)

Post by ANTIcarrot »

zedd wrote:Does the shadow fox plan on transforming toby into a shadow fox also? Will he be Danna's children father?
To turn Toby she will need his agreement. (Or at least that what she has always claimed up until now.) "What do you want?" As the B5 shadows used to ask. What could she possibly offer Toby to make him even consider doing any kind of deal with her?

I agree about Lightfoot, thought I think she might be more likely to suicide (by cop if needed) in order to avoid capture.
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Re: Shadow Walker Chapter 4 (Spoilers*)

Post by lapland »

Kyven has been the shamin of the Shadow Fox most of his life. So, even though he is now human again, he most certainly is still a shadow fox shamin. It has already been said that a totem shamin takes on the powers of his totem. In this case that is cunning and deceit, not necessarily the shadow, but it does include those powers I would presume.

Kyven is going to realize that the shadow fox has made him human again. No longer can he return to his shadow fox form. He is now human. It is also believed by the lorguarde that shamin can possess humans. Therefor Kyven will claim to have been possessed, and his memories have been usurped by the shamin.

Kyven can then give his services to the lorguard as a crystal cutter. From inside, what services can he render to his people against the lorguard? True, cutting the crystals would provide a service, but he has already been doing that for a time and has proven himself quite capable. He doesn't really need the communication devices when he can communicate with the entire army with a thought. Or does he have to be in his fox role to do that? The other shamin can only communicate to arcan army. Can you only communicate that the army of your own species, or only to the arcan?

Perhaps he can utterly destroy the lor army by commanding them to turn back. They could all think great sorcery and demonic powers are at work which would cause great fear and confusion. He may be able to confuse them even more by recreating an image of his shamin self, which would then be invincible to anything they want to do to it.

Kyven won't sacrifice himself because there is much to do from the inside and he is just the man to do it. Also don't forget, the shodow fox spirit has one very powerful weapon at her disposal. The Shadow Fox Monsters. A pack of those beasts slipping into town could cause absolute caos.
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Re: Shadow Walker Chapter 4 (Spoilers*)

Post by GBLW »

lapland, I have to disagree with some of your arguments. Kyven was an untrained human shaman even before the shadow fox spirit, changed him into a shadow fox. Since she granted his shadow fox abilities, she could take those away, but unless that removal also affected his memory, he should still be able to access the shaman abilities that he learned to use which were independent of the shadow fox and common to all shaman. For instance, he learned how to use his healing powers from watching other shaman and I believe the same could be said for his ability to drain crystals, which is a common ability in all shaman. I'm not even certain that he has lost all of his powers as a shadow 'weaver,' though I would suspect that he has.

Since I believe he was knocked senseless by the shock of his return to 'true' human form, what he is going through is extremely traumatic and how much he will realize when he awakes will have a profound effect on how he reacts. That reaction will profoundly affect how the Loreguard and Loremasters will react toward him. If he does show any shaman like abilities, things could go very badly for him, but if he reacts calmly and hides those abilities for now, he could be a very effective 'fifth column' worker inside the Loremaster's own workers.

By the way, other than verbally, he has shown no ability to 'communicate' with other humans from any distance, so I can't see him 'giving orders' to the Loremaster's army in any way. As far as I can recall, most (if not all) of the distant communication between the arcans was done with crystal powered devices, so I don't think that is a shaman based ability.

As for the shadow fox monsters, we really have seen nothing of them except for a couple of brief references, so what they can or will do is a virtual unknown at the moment.

In all cases, we're going to have to wait and see what Fel uses as the next twist in this rather convoluted plot. :lol:

PS, I came back and edited out the word Umbra - for some reason I had it in my head that she was the shadow fox spirit, but she's the pregnant shadow fox instead - sorry!
Last edited by GBLW on Fri May 29, 2009 7:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Shadow Walker Chapter 4 (Spoilers*)

Post by boballab »

GBLW wrote:lapland, I have to disagree with some of your arguments. Kyven was an untrained human shaman even before Umbra, the shadow fox spirit, changed him into a shadow fox. Since she granted his shadow fox abilities, she could take those away, but unless that removal also affected his memory, he should still be able to access the shaman abilities that he learned to use which were independent of the shadow fox and common to all shaman. For instance, he learned how to use his healing powers from watching other shaman and I believe the same could be said for his ability to drain crystals, which is a common ability in all shaman. I'm not even certain that he has lost all of his powers as a shadow 'weaver,' though I would suspect that he has.

Since I believe he was knocked senseless by the shock of his return to 'true' human form, what he is going through is extremely traumatic and how much he will realize when he awakes will have a profound effect on how he reacts. That reaction will profoundly affect how the Loreguard and Loremasters will react toward him. If he does show any shaman like abilities, things could go very badly for him, but if he reacts calmly and hides those abilities for now, he could be a very effective 'fifth column' worker inside the Loremaster's own workers.

By the way, other than verbally, he has shown no ability to 'communicate' with other humans from any distance, so I can't see him 'giving orders' to the Loremaster's army in any way. As far as I can recall, most (if not all) of the distant communication between the arcans was done with crystal powered devices, so I don't think that is a shaman based ability.

As for the shadow fox monsters, we really have seen nothing of them except for a couple of brief references, so what they can or will do is a virtual unknown at the moment.

In all cases, we're going to have to wait and see what Fel uses as the next twist in this rather convoluted plot. :lol:
Couple points of clarification:
1.The Shadow Fox Spirit and Umbra are two seperate entities. Umbra is a female Shadow fox Monster that was turned into an Arcan by the Shadowfox Spirit using Kyven's humanity.
One of her children? The only person she could be talking about that would do such a thing had to be the spirit. She had done to someone else what she did to him, changed them into an Arcan. “You mean my spirit changed you into this?”
“Yes! Am I pretty?”
“Uh, yes, you are pretty,” he said, a little confused.
“She made me just for you!” she said yet again. “I’m happy!” she proclaimed, pushing past his hands and hugging him again.
Kyven gave Firetail a helplessly confused look, but Firetail shrugged with a similar expression. “Girl,” Kyven said, pushing her away again. “Well, I think you need a name, first. What kind of name would you like?”
“I don’t know what names are good.”
“Whatever sounds nice to you.”
“Oh. Well, you pick. She made me—“
“Just for me,” he cut her off. “Well, how does Umbra sound?”
“I like it!”
No, she already had humanity. His humanity. She could only make one.
There was a cold feeling in the pit of his stomach.
She was made for you, she said simply. And she was made from you.
“But…but your promise,” he said in a bare whisper.
To regain your humanity, I will have to take it from someone else. If I take it from Umbra, you strip your children of their mother and she will be a shadow fox once more. But I can take it from anyone. What made you human, and what I took, wasn’t unique to you. Take it from another, and you will be human again.
2. Yes he learned that spell from Clover by watching her, however the power to use the spell was granted by the Shadow Fox Spirit. A Totem Shaman like Kyven can only get the power to cast spells from two sources. One by draining a crystal or two from his totem Spirit.
Not officially of course, but it didn’t take him long to figure out how to envision the spell to make it work, and well, the fox told him to practice, and Clover didn’t know what spells he knew…so he tried it himself. He imagined the meat drying out, all water drawn out of it, leaving it perfectly preserved, then he rather coyly beseeched the fox to grant him the power to make it happen. She responded with similar coyness, as if turning a blind eye to granting him the power to use a spell she had not taught him, and the piece of meat quickly dried to perfect preservation.
Without a crystal and if the Spirit witholds their favor the Shaman can't cast any spells even ones they know. Just like what happened to Kyven when the Spirit turned him Arcan.
“In these first lessons, I will deny you my blessing. Only your spirit sight may guide you along this path. Your magic comes from me, my Shaman, and I will not grant it to you until I am satisfied you are deserving of it.
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Re: Shadow Walker Chapter 4 (Spoilers*)

Post by GBLW »

Dang, I missed those two facts , but I'll readily admit that I only skimmed the story on my last reading, just to refresh my memory (now proven faulty, but I plead age, and health as extenuating circumstance - besides, I'm writing another book and paying more attention to problems with it - Fel's stories are supposed to be relaxation for me! :? :wink: ).

So what you are saying is that Kyven is back to being a human shaman, without any real powers?

Which would mean, he'd be safe from any tests the Loremasters may use to check him for shaman powers. Which in turn probably means that in the long run they will try to take advantage of him and utilize his skills as a crystal cutter. Well, until he comes in contact with crystal, and he realizes that he can draw power from the crystal to once again perform shaman magic.

Hmmm!!! Should be interesting. :twisted:
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Re: Shadow Walker Chapter 4 (Spoilers*)

Post by andy_t_roo »

I think you guys are forgetting that shadowfox refers to "his" human shaman at the end of the chapter -- the fox is still Kyven's "patron", so he should still be able do any shaman related things he wishes too. (the question is if the loregard can detect this or not ... and if Kyvern realises it). The loreguard will quickly realise he still has his memories, a few simple questions with a truth crystal will still show that.

That is assuming they even trust their alchemical devices any more - Kyvern's blood was tested, and shown to be human, shortly before he released the amulet and showd himself as archan.
So what does the amulet do now?!

hmm, lots of "interesting" things to think about ....
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Re: Shadow Walker Chapter 4 (Spoilers*)

Post by boballab »

GBLW wrote:Dang, I missed those two facts , but I'll readily admit that I only skimmed the story on my last reading, just to refresh my memory (now proven faulty, but I plead age, and health as extenuating circumstance - besides, I'm writing another book and paying more attention to problems with it - Fel's stories are supposed to be relaxation for me! :? :wink: ).

So what you are saying is that Kyven is back to being a human shaman, without any real powers?

Which would mean, he'd be safe from any tests the Loremasters may use to check him for shaman powers. Which in turn probably means that in the long run they will try to take advantage of him and utilize his skills as a crystal cutter. Well, until he comes in contact with crystal, and he realizes that he can draw power from the crystal to once again perform shaman magic.

Hmmm!!! Should be interesting. :twisted:
First to Andy and GBLW: I'm actually the one that first pointed out that he was still a Shaman now that he was human again and that is something the Shadowfox can not give or take away from him. Kyven was born a Shaman, grew up a Shaman and will die a Shaman. Being a Shaman is genetics, just like having blue eyes or having blond hair. The only thing that can happen to him is if the Shadow fox witholds her blessing or not. If she want him to be able to cast spells she grants the power to do the spell, if she doesn't then she don't.

Now for the rest Kyven has just as much power now as he did just before the Shadowfox turned him Arcan. Yes he is less powerful then he was as an Arcan, that is due to less stamina and not being as physically strong as a human. The other side of the coin Kyven now is a master of illusion and he still has the Benefit of being the Shaman to the Shadowfox the Mistress of Guile and Decept and Illusion. It takes less for him to do an illusion then it would any other shaman.

I said it before and I'll say it again the gift the Shadowfox gave Kyven was the Shadow powers.
When she first turned him Arcan from Human that was price for his bargain with her no more and no less. When she turned him she told him that as she had taken she had given as well and that it was a gift. So think on it logically if being turned Arcan was a price to be paid it can't also be a gift. The only thing else Kyven walked away from that encounter was the Shadow Powers. Now right at the end of the last chapter the fox is musing, basically talking to herself. This is the only time when you can take anything the fox says as gospel and there she stated quite straight out she did not remove her gift from Kyven. So in some form or the other he still has his Shadow powers and remember when Kyven was experimenting with them in Haven he could feel the SHadow power come to him from the Spirit realm just like the power he used for Shaman Spells.
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Re: Shadow Walker Chapter 4 (Spoilers*)

Post by GBLW »

Umm, quoting myself here:
Kyven was an untrained human shaman even before the shadow fox spirit, changed him into a shadow fox. Since she granted his shadow fox abilities, she could take those away, but unless that removal also affected his memory, he should still be able to access the shaman abilities that he learned to use which were independent of the shadow fox and common to all shaman. For instance, he learned how to use his healing powers from watching other shaman and I believe the same could be said for his ability to drain crystals, which is a common ability in all shaman. I'm not even certain that he has lost all of his powers as a shadow 'weaver,' though I would suspect that he has.
In other words I do agree about him still being a shaman. But, thanks for the clarification, I really wasn't clear about how the shadow fox's 'granted' powers worked and whether they were keyed to his Arcan form or not. Actually, I'm still not positive that you're right, because several of the more effective powers that he used were only granted on a temporary basis. Which begs the question, what will her price be for granting one of those special powers now that his human form has been regained?
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Re: Shadow Walker Chapter 4 (Spoilers*)

Post by boballab »

To make it simple I’ll just go through and explain how Shaman Magic work, how the Shadow powers work, where the powers come from and how Kyven learned them. Everything I list here has come out of the story so far.

Shaman Magic:

Shaman Magic can only be used by someone with the right genetic makeup. If you meet the qualification you must go on a Spirit Walk to learn how to be a Shaman. Now not all Shaman have totem spirits and they get taught by different spirits on their walk. Totem Shaman only get taught by their Totem Spirit and everything they do has to go through that specific spirit. Now a Shaman can learn magic in two ways I know of and with a third possible. One a Shaman or Spirit can teach you the spell. Stalker taught Kyven the lightning spell and the Fox taught him the cold spell. Two they can see a spell done by another shaman and figure out how it works. This Kyven did with the spell he saw Clover use in Deep River. The third and last possible way is if he figures one out on his own, with no example to go by. I don’t believe Kyven has done that yet. Now knowing how to cast the spell is only part of the equation you still need the power to cast it. Now a Shaman can get that power in only two ways. One drain a crystal. Shaman’s can drain crystals and used that stored energy to cast spells. Two ask the Spirits to give the power to them. Kyven being a Totem Shaman has to ask the Shadow Fox for that. Any spell no matter how he learned it the Power behind that spell always come from one of those two places for Kyven to power it: A Crystal or the Shadow Fox. Most of what is in this section is what Stalker taught Kyven at the beginning of his walk, basically Shaman 101.



Shadow Powers:

The explanation of how the Shadow powers work started early in the story, chapter 5 of Spirit Walker. There the Fox tells Kyven about the Shadow Fox Monsters and where the Power for the Shadow powers come from: The Spirit World itself. Unlike Shaman Magic the Shadow Powers use the energy in the Spirit realm no begging required of a spirit to supply the power.
No. They absorb the energy to grant them that power from the spirit world. It is a minor power and does not require so much energy as a crystal holds to enact. It is for them the same as spirit sight is for you, a passive ability.
Now this ability to use the Shadow powers was gifted to the Shadow Fox Monsters by the Shadow Fox Spirit when she made them. This is basically an instinctive power that the Monsters learn how to use on their own.
“You won’t teach me?”
No. The power of shadow is my gift to you. I will not teach you, you must learn on your own, as any shadow fox kit must learn without any help from its mother. You will find, in time, that the gift I have given you can rival your Shaman magic in some ways.
Also you can see here the Shadow Fox tells Kyven that the Shadow powers are her gift to him. Now Kyven as we all know can be a little dense at times and the Shadow Powers is where he is the most dense. Kyven got so caught up in not being human anymore, lusting after Danna and everything else that he didn’t try to do anything with the Shadow powers outside of blending with the shadow. So the Fox being who she is killed two birds with one stone and made Umbra. Bird One more Shadow Fox Arcans, Bird Two someone that Kyven can see use the Shadow Powers.
“You were born knowing what I don’t know. You have instinct, I don’t. She told me that the shadow powers I have could rival my Shaman magic if I learned to use them, but I’ve never tried. Teach me.”
“Teach you? I can’t teach you,” she said. “It’s not something I can really teach. I can only tell you what I can do, but I can’t explain how I do it. I just…do it.”
It was from Umbra that Kyven learned how to make Shadow.
He reached into her little shadowy rabbit, felt the coolness there, and on an impulse, tried to summon that cool feeling through his fur on purpose. He did it the way he called power as a Shaman, he beckoned to the shadow. And it responded! Kyven’s hand wavered, and then vanished within the foggy shadows, becoming invisible within the fog of shadow. Kyven had never made just one part of his body vanish before.
The ability to use the Shadow powers is internal and the power to use that comes from the Spirit world:
It was the innate power of the shadow foxes, what made the monsters, and when he did it, he could feel the power of the spirit world channel through him almost as if he were using Shaman magic
Now everyone likes to point out “hey he doesn’t have his fur anymore and he needs that fur to use the powers. The correct answer is yes and no and the no part is so obvious everyone over looks it. The fur lets him blend in with the shadows due to its coloration and such. Yes Kyven when he first used the Shadow powers, not just blending in, went through his fur to do it, but now I am going to point out something very obvious. Fur is nothing but hair and Humans have hair all over their bodies. It’s not as dense as the hair on an animal but its there none the less. So unless there isn’t a hair on Kyvens body, the only thing he lost is the ability to blend in with shadows, which is not a shadow power. Shadow powers are internal the ability to blend was external dependent on his fur, basically that is nothing but camouflage. It is the same as painting your face and hands black and dressing all black and going outside at night and hiding in the deep shadows. Recap: the only thing Kyven learned from somebody else was how to make Shadow bunnies and create a fog of shadow and he did this by watching Umbra and feeling how she did it. Everything else that he knows he learned on his own the Shadow Fox will not teach him anything about the Shadow Powers, at least not directly.

I know what you are thinking “what about when the Shadow Fox used the Shadow Powers to take Kyven off the Loremaster’s Island?”

Kyven in a way was begging, but not how to use the powers. Basically what happened was Kyven Summoned the Shadow Fox which is a function of being a Shaman and her using the Shadow Powers was how she fulfilled the Bargain struck.
She placed her paws on his shoulders, and the instant she did so, he felt the shadows come alive. They swarmed around him, enveloped him, encompassed him, and he felt a strange cold shiver through his entire body. His spirit sight seemed to fail him, as the light of the life on the bridge above seemed to dim, to darken, to get lost in the shadows surrounding him, and then the shadows receded
Thus have you used up my favor, she told him, though she was very proud. Your offer of sacrifice was your payment for my assistance. You made a good bargain. Now go. Go home, and do what must be done. And know that I am proud of you, my Shaman.
Now the fox didn’t teach him anything, what it was is that Kyven felt the shadows come alive and do what they did. It was basically the same thing he did when he learned the preservation spell from Clover and the Shadow fog from Umbra. They used the powers they had Kyven just figured out how they did that. Right now he still trying to figure out how shadow travel works. Since he saw it done, he knows he can do it once he figures out how and if he can handle enough power.


Ok now this little tidbit I have held back so far because I know if it’s true will not be popular: Clover dies on the mission to stop the gun shipment.

The reason I came to this conclusion.

1. As shown above offering to sacrifice yourself seems something at least some spirits consider a good bargain for their help, even if they don’t take your life.

2. Clover is the one that bargained with the owl spirit and the bargain struck is very interesting for what happened at the end of chapter 4.
Such was the very subtle and effective ways Clover had bargained them protection. The spirit that watched over their shop and them, a wise-looking owl the size of an eagle, was acting in a very subtle manner by removing the desire of the Loreguard to inspect the building or the people who were inside it when the protection was enacted.
Notice the protection was that the desire of the Loreguard to inspect the people, which includes Kyven, was the favor granted by the Owl Spirit.

3. Right after Clover left the Loreguard suddenly got the desire to inspect Kyven. That means the Favor granted by the Owl to Clover was removed. The only thing left is for the Owl to claim his price.

Now did Clover offer her life for that protection and this mission is where the Owl will claim it?
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Re: Shadow Walker Chapter 4 (Spoilers*)

Post by expedient »

Nice summary boballab.

Re: Shaman Magic.
Kyven has used magic in the third way, when he was trying to stick to the walls of the Loremaster’s Keep. The spell wasn’t very long-lasting and draining so maybe part of being taught spells is efficiency in the execution. The Shadow Fox Spirit seems to encourage him to experiment taunting him into bargaining with her and being amused when he learns spells by observation. She want him to discover things for himself, as with the shadow powers.
And Kyven learned a new spell.

Not officially of course, but it didn’t take him long to figure out how to envision the spell to make it work, and well, the fox told him to practice, and Clover didn’t know what spells he knew…so he tried it himself. He imagined the meat drying out, all water drawn out of it, leaving it perfectly preserved, then he rather coyly beseeched the fox to grant him the power to make it happen. She responded with similar coyness, as if turning a blind eye to granting him the power to use a spell she had not taught him, and the piece of meat quickly dried to perfect preservation.

Guile and deceit…she deceived him, and so he deceived her. And that seemed to please her.
He bowed his head. Fox, he called. My totem spirit. I need to climb the wall to get in, so I can continue the task you gave me. How do I do it? Please, show me. Grant me your wisdom and show me the path.

She was there. She was behind him, and he felt her paws come to rest on his shoulders as he sat on his haunches. In that touch, there was communication. If that is what you seek, then so be it, she conveyed to him. What price will you pay for my assistance?

I’m asking for your advice, not your help, he thought, a little defensively, his body shivering at what happened to him the last time he tried to bargain with this spirit.

So long with Clover, and still so little you have learned, she conveyed, a bit sharply. I will give you neither. You have summoned me, Shaman, you have formally summoned me. Now you must bargain from me what it is you wish.

I will bargain nothing, he thought immediately and with heat. I’d rather do it myself than bargain with you. And I didn’t summon you, you construed my thoughts in a manner you wanted, not the intent I gave them.

You cannot run from me forever, Shaman, she answered, a touch amused. Eventually, you will have to face me in a formal summoning again. Pray that you show much greater wisdom than you did the last time.

And then she was gone.
He bowed his head slightly, looking near the base of the wall, and chanced to see a spider skittering along on the stone, surging forward, stopping, then surging forward again, on the prowl for prey--

That was how to do it!

He closed his eyes, then opened them to the spirits even as he kept his lids shut. He brought forth an image of him skittering up the wall just like a spider, his hands and feet sticking to the wall, but not so greatly that he couldn’t take them off, just enough to hold his weight comfortably. He focused his attention, his awareness, on his own hands and feet, then beckoned to the fox to grant him the power to make the spell a reality, to give him the ability to climb the wall like a spider, to move vertically with the same surety and grace as a spider.

He felt the shadow fox respond. Power surged into him, power flowing from an amused spirit, flowing through him and into his hands and feet. The power pooled there, and unlike a maintained spell, he felt magic collect in his hands and feet, collect and coalesce, almost like he had little crystals in his appendages absorbing the power, saving it, storing it. The torrent of magic flowing into him ceased, but he felt the power remain behind, merged in with his hands and feet, where it would slowly fade as it powered the spell Kyven had channeled, which left Kyven to focus his attention on other things.

It was a different kind of spell, and the wolf, Stalker, his training came back to him. This was a Blessing, a different kind of Shaman spell that dealt with positive magic, of beneficial effects, which often used different rules than normal channeling. That he cast the spell on himself, directly within his own body where he could not see, was all the indication he needed that he had used a Blessing rather than a normal Invocation.

It was the first Blessing he had ever done…and it worked.


As to Clover, she is very experienced in bargaining with spirits and it doesn’t make sense for the Owl Spirit to demand her life as the shaman are very much in demand right now.

I think that the favor of the Owl Spirit is still in effect as the arcans were overlooked whilst Kyven was questioned. The protection may have had a range of influence. There was too much evidence against Kyven for it to be ignored by those outside the influence, either by distance or magical protection such as in the tower. They did do a poor job of it, as evidenced by Shario being able to get the Arcan away after the alarm had been raised. The shop doesn’t appear to have been under observation, which makes no sense without the Owl Spirit’s intervention.
Such was the very subtle and effective ways Clover had bargained them protection. The spirit that watched over their shop and them, a wise-looking owl the size of an eagle, was acting in a very subtle manner by removing the desire of the Loreguard to inspect the building or the people who were inside it when the protection was enacted. The Loreguard and Loremasters knew the shop was there, and they would challenge the inhabitants in matters not dealing with hiding the secret of the shop, but the owl’s influence caused them to feel that checking the shop or challenging the inhabitants was a waste of time, and thus not worth pursuing. It was an extremely effective tactic, since the fact that the shop had been previously searched took away a viable reason to search it, and so long as the owl was there to discourage their enemies from becoming motivated enough to inspect the shop or question those within, they were safe. Even when they did finally search the shop again once they ordered a second complete search of the city, the owl’s subtle suggestion to ignore what was there would cause them to do a very poor job, and thus be much easier to fool. They would accept any plausible explanation as the truth, they would give each room just a cursory glance, and so long as there was nothing outrageously out of place or blatantly obvious, the shop would pass the second inspection as easily as it had passed the first.
It wouldn’t surprise me if one or more of the arcans was to die in the escape attempt. I still think that Smoke or Lucky might betray them as they only know the harsh reality of slavery and little about the abstract concept of Haven. If accosted by Loreguard they may revert to conditioning.



I’ve being thinking about what questions the Loremasters will put to Kyven. Their certainty in their beliefs and prejudice might lead to misunderstandings and paradoxes. Such as:
Loremaster: Where is the black fox arcan shaman?
Kyven: He is gone.
Loremaster: Is he dead?
Kyven: No.
Loremaster: Is he still in Avannar?
Kyven: Yes.
Loremaster: How did the shaman gain control of your body?
Kyven: A spirit did it.
Loremaster: Can the shaman take over your body again?
Kyven: No.
Loremaster: Are you the arcan shaman?
Kyven: I was but the arcan has been removed.

The illusion that Kyven used on the Lorequard general, dissipating into shadow smoke, could leave them believing the shaman is still at large. The Loreguard that cornered him saw the corridor fill with shadow smoke before the flash of light.
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malystryx1500
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Re: Shadow Walker Chapter 4 (Spoilers*)

Post by malystryx1500 »

Truthfully, I believe that Kyven was questioned because his totem wanted him to be questioned and captured. It seems to me that she was not just taking advantage of a situation that was developing, but actually manipulating events to make sure that they happened the way she wished. The Owl Spirit must have stepped back from protecting Kyven at the command of his totem (which makes sense because Kyven is her shaman, not the Owl Spirits).

The events that are shown with Danna, and the thoughts we see make this the likely conclusion to me. I believe she wants the loreguard to know that their is a human shaman since (with the exception of possible trickery involved) the likely conclusion is that the loreguard caught a shaman, and that every test will show that he IS human. (The fact that he is a shaman has been established constantly with all of his raids on the loremasters and such).
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Re: Shadow Walker Chapter 4 (Spoilers*)

Post by ANTIcarrot »

malystryx1500 wrote:It seems to me that she was not just taking advantage of a situation that was developing, but actually manipulating events to make sure that they happened the way she wished.
She might have to do a lot more than that though. The Loreguard have had the truth (or truths rather) staring them in the face for hundreds of years. They are very good at ignoring evidence that they are wrong. I cannot see how Kyven's existence or testimony will be so convincing that they stop doing that, or change anything else. Even Yoris, who knows Kyven personally, is unlikely to be convinced."The spirits told you that what we were doing will destroy the world? Why didn't you say so! The spirits told you! Oh well than it must be true!" (Possibly with less sarcasm.) He'd have every reason to believe Kyven had been brainwashed, rather than told the truth.

I can't see what Shadowfox has gained by this, unless she wanted a 'relay' she could use to talk to the Loreguard directly. And I still think there's a limit to what she can do to Danna before she bites off more than she can chew. Danna is pretty indispensable to the success of Haven's military ambitions - which are apparently desired by many spirits. That's a good bargaining position. If she wants, she has them over a barrel. "Fix this, or I leave, and you lose."

Though that may of course be just want shadowfox is planning. I imagine half a dozen spirits coming to her cap in hand would delight her no end. :roll:

[edit:]
TLGG wrote:As to who will impregnate Danna, <snip> It is also quite a clever way of breaking Danna of the same prejudices Kyven had, the direct and brutal method
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... Redemption Rape is not a method of education. I find it disturbing that anyone would suggest a woman be violated just because she is not being obedient and is daring to think for herself. I find it especially warped, and somewhat treasonous, that it would be suggested that we do this to a potentially vital strategic resource.
Last edited by ANTIcarrot on Sun May 31, 2009 5:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Shadow Walker Chapter 4 (Spoilers*)

Post by TLGG »

The owl spirit probably didn't step back, I think that it was in chapter three that we were told that owl spirit had a lot less influence over shaman, because they were able to protect themselves, but we don't have many details about the deal Clover did with the spirit.

I think it's fair to say that Kyven's totem has been manipulating things off-scene, and for quite a long time. Her plans are very long term (Kyven himself is the perfect example, as you guys proved). I may be wrong, but I recall seeing that the shadow fox spirit was a particularly meddling one, which would mean she had nearly free reign to guide the course of events, to set the chees pieces in a way it would suit her. That is why I don't think the two armies will have one of those big battles that Fel is so fond of, at least not in quite a while.

Kyven will probably stay with the Loremaster's for a bit, he will use his unique position to misdirect them, that is what he was trained for (I'm betting that he'll teleport out using the shadow powers). As to who will impregnate Danna, the fastest way I see is for one of Umbra's litter to do it, Arcans develop fast. It is also quite a clever way of breaking Danna of the same prejudices Kyven had, the direct and brutal method, also something necessary if they are to live with arcans and help break other humans of those prejudices.

Can't wait for number five!
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