On the origin of species (interplanetary edition)

[Hearly]

You're essentially correct in that the genetic compatibility of humans and Faey would be statistically impossible if they developed on different planets. The Faey mark it off as Gora's Law, but the reality is quite different.

The Faey aren't native to Draconis. Gora's Law explains their genetic "nearness" to Draconian life, but the truth is, both the humans and the Faey descended from a common ancestor. They're splinter branches of the same race.

Now that statement might clear up the mystery of why and how Zera Karinne came to Earth after the destruction of Karis. We know Zera was on a mission to a Rim system and was a xenobotanist. What if that Rim system was the home or a planet colonized by the parent race of the humans and Faey. If that was the case she could have found the location of earth from possible ruins there. It would also give them a reason for leaving it if the parent race is extinct. She could have found evidence of another planet that would be biologically compatible with her species, with a possibility of finding descendents of the parent race that could help her.

Fel explained it a long time ago, that the Faey started on Earth, and either a god/advanced race (can't remeber which) moved them to Draconis and let Homo Sapiens develop on Earth.

[boballab]

Yes he explained how the Faey got to Draconis that wasn't what I posted was about. What I posted about was the circumstances of how Jason's ancestor got to Earth. After the destruction of Karis the surviving Karinnes were warned off from returning there, to go into hiding. Now this was something I pointed out before, Zera was on a mission to a Rim system and the reason you send a xenobotanist out would be the same reason UCLA would send a botanist here on earth to the Amazon: to study plants there. So logically that Rim system would have a planet in it that had at the minimum plant life and if there is plant life there the odds say there is water. Now could that group of Karinnes eat any of that plant life? We don't know. However if they could, why risk leaving that planet where you had a food source to set out into uncharted space with no guarentee that you would find another that could support you? That falls back also to the odds of the planet Zera found just happened not only be able to support Faey life but also has the descendents of a race that your own descend from. It just seems to me that Zera's actions seemed to go against everything all the other Karinne surviors did and the only reason that she did everything that way was she had information of where earth was, that Humanity was on it and that it was a compatible species.

[dellstart]

You're essentially correct in that the genetic compatibility of humans and Faey would be statistically impossible if they developed on different planets. The Faey mark it off as Gora's Law, but the reality is quite different.

The Faey aren't native to Draconis. Gora's Law explains their genetic "nearness" to Draconian life, but the truth is, both the humans and the Faey descended from a common ancestor. They're splinter branches of the same race.

Now that statement might clear up the mystery of why and how Zera Karinne came to Earth after the destruction of Karis. We know Zera was on a mission to a Rim system and was a xenobotanist. What if that Rim system was the home or a planet colonized by the parent race of the humans and Faey. If that was the case she could have found the location of earth from possible ruins there. It would also give them a reason for leaving it if the parent race is extinct. She could have found evidence of another planet that would be biologically compatible with her species, with a possibility of finding descendents of the parent race that could help her.

wow!

[expedient]

The Faey aren't native to Draconis. Gora's Law explains their genetic "nearness" to Draconian life, but the truth is, both the humans and the Faey descended from a common ancestor. They're splinter branches of the same race.

I suppose the Kimdori may be keeping more secrets regarding all this...

[hoppy]

Yes he explained how the Faey got to Draconis that wasn't what I posted was about. What I posted about was the circumstances of how Jason's ancestor got to Earth. After the destruction of Karis the surviving Karinnes were warned off from returning there, to go into hiding. Now this was something I pointed out before, Zera was on a mission to a Rim system and the reason you send a xenobotanist out would be the same reason UCLA would send a botanist here on earth to the Amazon: to study plants there. So logically that Rim system would have a planet in it that had at the minimum plant life and if there is plant life there the odds say there is water. Now could that group of Karinnes eat any of that plant life? We don't know. However if they could, why risk leaving that planet where you had a food source to set out into uncharted space with no guarentee that you would find another that could support you? That falls back also to the odds of the planet Zera found just happened not only be able to support Faey life but also has the descendents of a race that your own descend from. It just seems to me that Zera's actions seemed to go against everything all the other Karinne surviors did and the only reason that she did everything that way was she had information of where earth was, that Humanity was on it and that it was a compatible species.

One of the characters implied knowledge of previous contact between the fae and the humans. A explanation may be that there was a semi permanent Karinne research group on earth that got stranded.

[boballab]

Its a very real possibility that the Kimdori have known about how the Faey got to Draconis since they have been in space long before most other races. That would put a whole new spin on why Miarri went to earth that first time with Kumi. According to what we know now Miarri just went to earth because of Kumi, but if the Kimdori already knew about earth and the faey connection to it in the past, well you can see why they would be interested.

As to a semi perament Karinne research station on earth, that is very unlikly with what Cybi has said. Cybi didn't know where earth was when Jason arrived, it was in uncharted space. If the Karinnes had been going to earth on a semi permanet basis Cybi would have had that knoweledge.

[Phantom]

You're essentially correct in that the genetic compatibility of humans and Faey would be statistically impossible if they developed on different planets. The Faey mark it off as Gora's Law, but the reality is quite different.

The Faey aren't native to Draconis. Gora's Law explains their genetic "nearness" to Draconian life, but the truth is, both the humans and the Faey descended from a common ancestor. They're splinter branches of the same race.

Oh no not again <G>

Why do i get the feeling that Humans and Faey are a lot like the Wikuni

their parent Race Forced to flee from their homes by a war....... to another galaxy



and now after all these centurys...... once again their enemy has caught up to them.


hehehehehehehe

Phantom

[dellstart]

Its a very real possibility that the Kimdori have known about how the Faey got to Draconis since they have been in space long before most other races. That would put a whole new spin on why Miarri went to earth that first time with Kumi. According to what we know now Miarri just went to earth because of Kumi, but if the Kimdori already knew about earth and the faey connection to it in the past, well you can see why they would be interested.

As to a semi perament Karinne research station on earth, that is very unlikly with what Cybi has said. Cybi didn't know where earth was when Jason arrived, it was in uncharted space. If the Karinnes had been going to earth on a semi permanet basis Cybi would have had that knoweledge.

would she? she a a back up emergency computer? who says all the Cybis shared sensitive info , perhaps each one had its field speciallty, where as a genral rule they basic shared?

[Mad Monk]

While each CBIM may have had slightly different configurations, Cybi was a backup, and recieved all the information from the Acadamy computer. I would say that if there had been a covert research station the information would have been in the Academy system. It wasn't so I do not believe that there was such a station.

“I must ask. Was the data of the Academy lost?”
“Everything that the CBIM of the Academy retained exists within my memory, your Majesty. We have lost no data. It was transferred to me at the onset of the attack, intact. The knowledge of the Karinnes is preserved.”
“Thank the gods,” Zaa breathed, patting her chest. “To lose that would have been a tragedy of untold dimensions.”

[boballab]

Its a very real possibility that the Kimdori have known about how the Faey got to Draconis since they have been in space long before most other races. That would put a whole new spin on why Miarri went to earth that first time with Kumi. According to what we know now Miarri just went to earth because of Kumi, but if the Kimdori already knew about earth and the faey connection to it in the past, well you can see why they would be interested.

As to a semi perament Karinne research station on earth, that is very unlikly with what Cybi has said. Cybi didn't know where earth was when Jason arrived, it was in uncharted space. If the Karinnes had been going to earth on a semi permanet basis Cybi would have had that knoweledge.

would she? she a a back up emergency computer? who says all the Cybis shared sensitive info , perhaps each one had its field speciallty, where as a genral rule they basic shared?

Also Besides the above explanation, take this into account Which is more likely to be in back up storage: Star Charts or Crew manifests to ships that were at that time on off planet missions? Star Charts only need periodic updating then saved again. Crew Manifests are ever evolving depending on mission but Cybi had those manifests in her Databanks so it would be reasonable that ahe would have the Star Charts to know where those crews were going. If you want to look at it from a security angle Cybi had in her databanks all the info to the Program so if the Karinnes had discovered earth prior to the point of the second civil war and Humanities existance, with its implications it would probably be kept in the same security databanks as the Program. So during the attack the Karinnes wouldn't have time to pick and choose what info out of the databanks to dump to Cybi they would dump whole data banks. The question on lost information was never about if small parts were missed but did all the CBIM's have time to dump all they had in storage to Cybi. The Academy had first priority and as noted dumped all its info to Cybi, what the other CBIM's dumped is still up in the air.

[kd7mvs]

Something to remember about Cybi and the information she stores: 1) You have to know what questions to ask. 2) You have to actually ask the appropriate questions. 3) You have to have the appropriate clearance to access the information. Remember, the plans for the Interdictor existed, but no one knew about it until Mylena [sp?] searched through the classified data and stumbled upon it; nothing says that information on Earth, or Manhome, doesn't reside in classified storage, but you have to find it if it does; it doesn't strike me as something that would be in open stacks, but rather in restricted storage.

[imthejman85]

I find it incredibly funny that humans in general seem to think that the living conditions out there required by HUMANS are the same for all other possible intelligent life in the universe. For example, Earth and almost all life on it are carbon based life forms which breath O2 to survive. How do we know there couldn't be an intelligent life form out there with a rock-like body that didn't even have to breath? How about a species that breaths nothing but hydrogen but O2 and nitrogen are poisonous to them? One capable of living in gamma radiation permanently? Key fact here, we DON'T! Trying to guess about intelligent life forms on other planets is conpletely pointless, since we DON'T know jack about the universe as a whole. We haven't even left our solar system, minus maybe an unmanned probe or two we launched DECADES ago. Does anyone here honestly think we can quantify the number of intelligent life forms in this galaxy(withOUT pulling random numbers out of our collective ass?) To me, it's like shooting a gun into the air while wearing a blindfold and hitting a one inch target a mile away. If scientists want to throw numbers out there, they should try getting viable SPACE travel into gear, so one day a few hundred years from now humans might finally leave our solar system. Personally, I think that won't happen before humanity self-implodes, but hey... I might be wrong. Probably not at the rate humanity is going, but anything is possible.

[boballab]

Something to remember about Cybi and the information she stores: 1) You have to know what questions to ask. 2) You have to actually ask the appropriate questions. 3) You have to have the appropriate clearance to access the information. Remember, the plans for the Interdictor existed, but no one knew about it until Mylena [sp?] searched through the classified data and stumbled upon it; nothing says that information on Earth, or Manhome, doesn't reside in classified storage, but you have to find it if it does; it doesn't strike me as something that would be in open stacks, but rather in restricted storage.

Actually in this case not necessarily, you missed a few things. One all security restrictions were removed by Koiri Karinne except for how to restart the program. Of course after that Jason would place security protocols in place as more people arrived but at the time of first contact between Jason and Cybi there would be no restriction on that type of information.

[My answers are yours, Master Karinne, and it has been my designation, or name, to be known as Cybi. All security protocols have been removed by Koiri Karinne, except the protocols around the technical data of the Program. I am permitted to answer questions about it, but not help you restart it.]

This leads to my second point. Jason point blank asked if there was anything that Cybi knew of that could help him back on earth. At this point with no security protocols on any information but the program Cybi would have found it then and told Jason.

Then there is the simple problem of the destruction of Zera’s scout ship. If there had been a base anywhere near the earth, Zera’s scout ship would have detected it. So knowing that why would she destroy her scout ship? If the reason is so the Imperium can’t detect it a Karinne base on or near earth makes that just a stupid waste.

Then of course there is the most simple thing against a Karinne installation on earth that it is overlooked: The Kimdori would have known of it. After Jason took up the ring and Miaari told him about the Siann yah think she might have hung a clue out there for Jason to use besides the Scimitar as proof in front of the Empress. Up till this point Miaari led Jason by the nose pushing to find the pieces of his ancestral puzzle. I believe a Karinne earth base would have cropped up if there was one to help the cause.

To come to a conclusion of a prior Karinne base there is to many facts that we know of that would be made nonsensical.

Also there is a wee problem of your example about the Interdictor. There might have been an instance where it was accessed prior to Myleena.

[Show me. All of it,] he ordered. [Show me everything that the Karinnes kept secret from the Imperium.]
[It will take time. There is much.]
[Then the faster we get started, the faster we can finish.]
[Shall I begin with operational technologies, or research materials that were still under development?]
[Let’s start with stuff they already had working. After that, we can get into the stuff they were researching.]

The above quote shows Jason going through the entire Karinne Tech base to find something to use.

[Very well. I will begin with power systems, then we will cover starship developments; weapons, armor, shields, engines, and other systems. Then we will move into sensor systems and other planetary technologies, and then move into the tertiary scientific knowledge; biology, chemistry, physics, archaeology, anthropology, paleontology, botany, history, and so on. So, let us begin.]

This one shows the order in which they looked at them broken up by categories.

a communion where she explained every technology that the Karinnes had developed to be a viable system. All of them, from the most important and used, to the most whimsical. Anything the Karinnes researched and developed into a working technology, Jason had Cybi summarize for him.

Now this one shows that Cybi summarized every working tech the Karinnes had.

When you bring these things together keep in mind that the selected tech was a replicator which would have been far down on the category list. Then that brings us back to the Interdictor which should have been somewhere either dealing with Hyperspace Engine Tech or at least the other systems list. Please note that Myleena wouldn’t have been able to use sims and know for a fact that Stargates would bypass the Interdictor unless she had two proven systems to run through the computers. So that would mean the Karinnes built at least a small test model to get the hard facts which she used. Since at that point it is a working Tech Jason would have saw it before the replicator but have skipped over it and with the amount of Tech he saw in those hours it would not be unreasonable that he simply forgot about it.

Now after that point in the story the odds of finding that particular tech would be slim since Jason reinstated security protocols and no one else would have reason to just be looking through the entire Karinne Tech Base in one sitting.

Then there is one last little thing in this that could also be used against a secret Karinne Base. After getting the replicator from Cybi, he told Cybi to continue

[We’ll take care of that when we’re done. Keep going.]
Jason wanted to see all of it, so he continued with the communion, so Cybi would be able to complete her task.

Now one of the things on the list was the secret history of the Karinnes we don’t know how far along Jason got down the list past the replicator before Zaa showed up and Jason broke the Communion. Another factor to look at is that you could be reasonably sure that after Jason returned to Karis after getting earth situated he probably went back to Cybi and continued seeing all the secrets of the Karinnes, which he would need to know when dealing with the Imperium and know which advances like the replicator Jason could sell to them. Cybi can deny Jason nothing except possibly the knowledge to restart the program because at that point he is the Grand Duke and he wanted all secrets the Karinnes knew. Something of that magnitude Jason wouldn't forget since it was dealing with earth.

[miraborn]

With regard to knowing what questions to ask, it is important to note that we, the readers, know more than the characters in some cases. Let's look back in our own history a few years... Back when Galileo was peering through his tiny telescope at Jupiter, he discovered that there were 4 moons orbiting that planet. Before that moment, there was no possibility that ANY human being would even think of asking if there was a possibility of life on a moon of Jupiter. Further, even after the discovery of moons of Jupiter, it was many many many years until we had instruments and technology that allowed us to observe the potential for liquid water on one of those moons under the ice layer.

To put it simply, prior to Galileo, humanity Did Not Know that it Did Not Know if there was life on Io. Today, We Do Know that We Do Not Know if such life exists. Would Jason Know to ask this question? He had some of these ideas thrust at him (see quote below) but I don't think it really sank in.

Now, We the Readers know, thanks to our beloved author's posts in these forums, that the Humans and Faey are directly related thanks to some planetary seeding program many millions of years ago. However, even the most advanced of the Karrines only suspect that there is some direct connection. Gora's Law may, in fact, hinder that line of thinking because of its focus on the possibility of concurrent evolution given similar environmental conditions. There isn't much of a chance of someone asking for a database of genetic markers for all species in the galaxy if we can't think beyond Gora's law, or that fleeting moment of "Hmm, that's funny. I'm Human and my significant other is Faey and we just had a baby together." It's not in the mindset.

Some have postulated that the Kimdori may know something. How Old are the Kimdori? We know that some individuals are 1500 or so years old, or even older, but we do not know how old the Species is. We know that the Kimdori have influenced the development and interaction of various species, in particular the Faey, but do THEY even know that the Humans and Faey are directly related? The Kimdori have TONS of genetic material on the Faey, thanks to the Generations program. They also now have TONS of genetic material on humans, thanks to Jason and the efforts to recover the missing humans.
There is another aspect of the concurrent evolution theory that I think some of us may have missed. It's not just the Humans and Faey that are genetically compatible - Many other species on Earth and Draconis are also compatible. Remember that a Fox and Vulpar could successfully mate, so can many other species on both worlds.

“It means that humans are Faey are genetically compatible, that we can have children,” she answered. “Well, we have creatures on Draconis called vulpars. Well, they’re almost exactly similar to a species of animal on Terra called a fox. We have truki, you have horses. We have feyalla, you have chimpanzees. We have siksuni, you have whales,” she told him, using the English words for the names of the animals from Earth. “Animals with similar appearances—mostly—and similar DNA patterns, that hold the same position in the planetary ecology. A vulpar and a fox could crossbreed, as could a feyalla and a chimp, or a siksuni and a whale. And if we brought a vulpar here and released it in the wild in the same habitation range of a fox, it would probably survive, maybe even thrive. That’s the basic gist of Gora’s Law.”

And there is the hangup - Humans/Faey were not the only species that were seeded. Either someone took a great deal of effort to transplant an entire planetary ecosystem, or there is something WAY more going on here than we realize.

Now, this may aggravate you conspiracy theorists out there, but I don't think the Kimdori really know much about this either. The time scales we're talking about are on the order of Millions of years. If you believe the fossil record on earth, the first mammals began to show up about 100 Million Years ago. I'm focusing on mammals here because that's all that is mentioned in the quote above. If the little chipmunks that were trying to get away from those Velociraptors are related to us, how long ago did the planetary seeding take place? And WHY? Why would someone go through the effort of ensuring that two planets, in two star systems, were seeded with genetic material that might, possibly, if all circumstances worked out right, hopefully someday develop something that would look alike. And not just look - FUNCTION alike. I'm talking Brains, Organs, limbs, methods of thinking and communicating, methods of locomotion, methods of procreation, and so on.

Food for Thought.

-M

[expedient]

How Old are the Kimdori?

Can't say for sure but from http://forums.sennadar.com/viewtopic.ph ... old#p17503 Fel writes:

They are an ancient species who were jumping hyperspace when the Faey were still using stone spears, so they have a much different point of view than the younger races. You might jump to the idea that they're like this universe's version of the Vorlons, and in a general way, you're somewhat correct. They play their own game and are more than willing to use the younger races to achieve their own goals.

So they may know something or if not they may be able to guess at who would be seeding planets...