Pre-Shadow Walker musings [Spoilers]

[michaelsuave]

Weresmilodon, The shadowfox gave him a locket that turns him into an actual human, but he can only be a human for 24 hours, and then it needs to recharge, and in turn, what's her name female loreguard back in haven turns into an arcan. She traded up her humanity to preserve his safety, there was something she wanted, and she bargained poorly it appears... its in the last chapter, don't have time right now to find the quote...

[montie1123]

From how i read it, he takes on the body of a human while she takes on the body of a sahdowfox arcan. Also if you rember from when the shadowfox gave it to him, she talked about getting her claws deeper into Danna. To me that leads far and wide like maybe were/shadowfox or something along those lines. After all what could the shadowfox really want with a human so bad that she will take the time to make deal after deal with her till she gets a deal that she wants for the price she wants?

[boballab]

As to the necklace it only makes the change skin deep

“When you wear it and enact its power, it will change your outward body into a human,” she told him.
“But you told me that was impossible!”
“It is not permanent. And it only changes your outward appearance. Within, under that mask, you will still be an Arcan, and still retain your Shaman magic and shadow powers.

My belief is that the Shadowfox wants Danna to give up her humanity voluntarily. Umbra has stated that she doesn't love Kyven and its my guess that the Shadowfox would prefer Kyven to stay Arcan. If Danna gives up her humanity the Shadowfox can make her a Shadowfox Arcan. With that humanity in hand she can change a Shadowfox monster male into a shadowfox arcan and have 2 breeding pairs. As to having more human shamans there is Kyven's human child which can take up that burden as far as the Shadowfox is concerned.

[ANTIcarrot]

Remember, there is no easy or fast way to switch between human and arcan.

Slight disagreement: The arcan-maker the humans built long ago was by all accounts a *quick* way to turn a human into an arcan. But I would most definitely agree it was by no means easy. Or even particularly survivable to an individual mind.

[Weresmilodon]

True, true. But I was referring to a quick way to change back and forth. We still don't even know if it can be reversed without a spirit to hold on to part of the humanity/animal that isn't needed. It certainly is a fast way to make arcans, but what about turning them back?

[boballab]

True, true. But I was referring to a quick way to change back and forth. We still don't even know if it can be reversed without a spirit to hold on to part of the humanity/animal that isn't needed. It certainly is a fast way to make arcans, but what about turning them back?

I think Kyven as well as us the readers have missed/overlooked a crucial part in the making of a Shadowfox Arcan. Kyven keeps saying he lost his humanity to the Shadowfox, we know that the Shadowfox gave of herself the animal part to make Kyven a Arcan. We know that the Ancient device took an animal and a Human to make an Arcan, with the Human body dying in the process. We believe that the Humanity taken from Kyven was put into Umbra. Now Kyven has been thinking on Arcans and has reached the conclusion that what the difference is between the Monsters and the Arcans is the Humanity that was taken back in the original experiments. What that all boils down to is that for there to be an Arcan there must be Humanity in the Arcan. It seems to me that Kyven might not have lost all his humanity to the Shadowfox just a part of it and she replaced that part with the part that she used to make the Shadowfox Monsters. For if that is not the case how could he be an Arcan wouldn't he be made into the less intelligent Shadowfox Monster without it? To turn him back would mean that the Shadowfox would have to take that part of her back and replace the humanity back in. That begs the question does it have to the Humanity taken from Kyven or can it be from any other human? We know the Shadowfox is not omniscient, she screwed up Kyvens transformation she could be wrong that any old human would do. We could end up talking about what is the Soul of a Human in the end. Remember Kyven still deep down considers himself human could it be that the Shadowfox cannot effect/remove the human soul?

[ANTIcarrot]

True, true. But I was referring to a quick way to change back and forth. We still don't even know if it can be reversed without a spirit to hold on to part of the humanity/animal that isn't needed. It certainly is a fast way to make arcans, but what about turning them back?

I think Kyven as well as us the readers have missed/overlooked a crucial part in the making of a Shadowfox Arcan.

Not so much over looked as ignored. It's easy to say that Shadow fox can shuffle Kyven's humanity like a deck of cards, but what does this mean? If life here is based on something other than DNA, fine. But if it is based on DNA, and if kyven's mind is similarly based upon complex neural activity in his head, then what exactly are the effects of her taking half his 'humanity'? What exactly is his humanity? His membership of the species? His capacity for thought? His willingness for charity? Humanity means all those three and more. Without more precision it's like saying Mystery Ingredient X. It's easy to suppose that even Shadowfox doesn't really understand what she's doing or what she's talking about. In the same sense that Kyven uses magic, but doesn't really understand how it works or where it comes from. Or that she's compulsively lying.

To even talk about this we need better words and concepts. Until Fel's prose supplies them we're kinda stuck. Hence the situation is well within the purview of the MST3000 Mantra.

[boballab]

Further in my previous post I said that the Shadowfox screwed up Kyven's transformation and that she isn't omniscient. Look at it from this angel, the Shadowfox stated she made the Shadowfox Monsters. Basically she took regular foxes and just added something from herself into them to make the Shadowfox's. She took that event and what the ancient's did to make Arcan's and postulated it was just a biological process and she could make an Arcan out of a Human just substituting herself in the process instead of an animal. After what she did she realized there is more to the humans and what makes them what they are then just a biological process. Basically she screwed up by the numbers, she did exactly what the Ancients did when first making Arcans: Played with forces she didn't understand.

[ANTIcarrot]

Further in my previous post I said that the Shadowfox screwed up Kyven's transformation and that she isn't omniscient.

And I never disputed that. In fact I wasn't disputing it long before she actually admitted this to be the case.

She took that event and what the ancient's did to make Arcan's and postulated it was just a biological process and she could make an Arcan out of a Human just substituting herself in the process instead of an animal.

But she's still talking like 'fox' and 'human' as if they are magical liquids you can inject into or suck out of someone or something. And indeed in this world they might be. Nothing forces Fel to stick to conventional biology with all that tedious chemistry and evolutionary complexity.

But if Kyven is effectively mammalian in his body chemistry as well as his form, then nothing I can think of could be used to make sensible informed judgments or guesses about this transformation process. Without knowing what this 'liquid' is for example, we can't make guesses about where he might get more to make up for his lack. Even if he does get a hold of another portion of man-juice (ha ha) what happens when he tries to put three portions of essence into a body presumably designed for just two? Will the third portion spill?

That are probably the wrong questions. And that's my point. We don't even the right language to ask these questions, let alone the context to frame them in.

[montie1123]

Here how about this Human = Jello, 1 part mix 1 part water

Arcan = Jello shots 6 ounces Jello (large package)
16 ounces Water (boiling)
6 ounces Water (cold)
10 ounces Vodka

As you can see going from one to the other adds a whole new level to things

[michaelsuave]

Isn't there going to be a problem turning kyven human again? Didn't the shadowfox use that human part of him to turn the shadowfox female into an arcan? since somebody was doing formulas, lets try this out:

Human + human = human
human + animal = arcan
human + shadowfox= shadowfox arcan
arcan+arcan = arcan

it appears that the human aspect is the key. Now, the questions are, does it take the entire humanity part to make an arcan, or just part? argument for whole humanity: the ancients used a complete human to make arcans; but maybe they were just sloppy at it. Argument against, shadowfox allowed kyven to keep his thoughts and mind, which was decidedly human at first. Maybe the spirits are just better at doing the transformations? Then there is the whole exchange of "masks" between Kyven and what's her name, loreguard back in haven, whenever he uses the locket...

[ANTIcarrot]

Human + human = human
human + animal = arcan
human + shadowfox= shadowfox arcan
arcan+arcan = arcan

Except that the following premise is false: Human =/= Animal.

I would rewrite:
human + magitech_process = arcan (where both are varieties of stable animal species)
fox + spirit = magic fox + spirit (where the spirit can 'regrow itself')
magic fox + 1/n human = magic fox arcan (where 1/n is any fraction you care to name)
human + spirit = magic fox arcan + 1/n human + spirit
arcan + spirit = magic argan + spirit

But these equations are likely incomplete. They only examine ingredients and products. Nowhere are waste products mentioned. With regards to 'magic x'... It is unclear whether these species have some genuine self contained capacity for magic, or just have a Platinum Membership deal with the spirits. In the first, they can 'telepathically' broadcast to the spirits. In the second, the spirits merely listen to them (more than others) via 'mind reading'.

it appears that the human aspect is the key.

Actually I think the spirit aspect is the key. Arcans are just another species of animal, like we are. They have an odd origin, but that doesn't make them biologically exceptional. The really interesting thing about them is their magic. Or rather their ability to 'obtain' magic from the spirits. That's where the arcans (and Kyven) step outside the conventional rules of science.

Now, the questions are, does it take the entire humanity part to make an arcan, or just part?

Consider a theoretical super-retro-nano-virus that can turn a human into an anthropomorphic animal. Does that require the 'whole humanity'? The question is nonsensical. Physically, no. A virus capable of that kind of reshaping can easily regrow missing limbs. Mentally... The mind has no relevance to the retrovirus, aside form the functioning of the hindbrain; needed to keep the heart et all working. Possibly it matters to retrovirus designer, but only if they desire a person's mind to survive the process.

[zedd]

Isn't there going to be a problem turning kyven human again? Didn't the shadowfox use that human part of him to turn the shadowfox female into an arcan? ...

I think it was said that for Kyven to turn human again someone else would have to die/loose their humanity. Maybe in the chapter where he is transformed? Another possibility is that the female shadow fox, after giving birth to their children, will return to being what she was (I don't remember the name ), returning to Kyven his humanity.