SPIRIT WALKER - CHAPTER 16 SPOILERS

[Fel]

I'm suprised Kyven didn't persue how the Ancients used magic. The whole conflict is about how crystals, which are the basis for alchemical power, are running out. But the Ancients didn't need crystals! If the Arcans could discover that process, there's a chance it could prevent the entire war. Of course, there's also a chance it could revive the barbarous practices that the spirits will never allow.

Though as soon as the Loremasters found out the Arcans had that knowledge, they would attack. But it would open up so many possibilities for the arcan council to ponder.

The reason why the ancients didn't need crystals is why the breach happened in the first place.

That is territory the spirits won't allow anyone to explore.

[Mizriath]

But the knowledge is available and well someone will always break the rules.

I am beginning to think even though the Spirits do not have governments, they would have a political structure and withtheir intelligence, it would not be caveman like structure too.

[furry_wolf2001b]

I'm suprised Kyven didn't persue how the Ancients used magic. The whole conflict is about how crystals, which are the basis for alchemical power, are running out. But the Ancients didn't need crystals! If the Arcans could discover that process, there's a chance it could prevent the entire war. Of course, there's also a chance it could revive the barbarous practices that the spirits will never allow.

Though as soon as the Loremasters found out the Arcans had that knowledge, they would attack. But it would open up so many possibilities for the arcan council to ponder.

The reason why the ancients didn't need crystals is why the breach happened in the first place.

That is territory the spirits won't allow anyone to explore.

Err, did it not say that their FURTHER experimentation did it?
(like trying to make an shaman energy h-bomb or some such kind of thing)

[Hods_Sorrow]

One thing im curious about is the other side of the ancient war since they were on a different continent and the cataclysm happened on the continent that the losing side was on. It was mentioned that one of the continents was turned into a poisened wasteland but im guessing that happened before the cataclysm since it was caused by wepons research itch makes it sound like booth sides were still around at the time of the cataclysm

[hoppy]

F. Oh most definitly they are that egotistical. I also believe that after 600 years most of them believe their own propaganda. They have been raised in it since birth generation after generation. Oh the Top of the organization knows the truth, probably, but their entire power structure, civilization and economy is based on a bunch of lies so they have to stay with them. Kinda of like the old Soviet system.

I think the truth about arcans has been suppressed by the loremasters to the point were not even the leadership knows. The idea of using humans to create arcans would be the antithesis of all they believe. I could see the idea provoking a purge/civil war. A major tenet of the Loremasters belief system is based on the idea that humans are greater than arcansbecause arcans lack what makes humans so great(a soul.) So now they find out human souls were an essential part of creating arcans. This would either cause a crisis of faith, unless they have none in which case it is business as usual, or denial and destruction of any who would believe such heresy(the first two sometimes having the same result as the later.) So, I believe if the idea is around it will be relegated to very secret archives or a inner cabal(not to be confused with leadership as the perception of favoritism to members of a group which could not be joined would lead to it's destruction i.e. even in feudalism a commoner could be knighted or influence raised by marriage.)

And they did not restrain themselves to just those who volunteered, or who they volunteered by force. Towards the end, anyone who was of no use to the war effort was taken to be used to create an Arcan. The old, the young, the ill, the mentally unfit, all of them were marched to the Arcan chamber and died to create soldiers that could fight.

There were more exotic ones, Arcans created from animals from other lands, but they lacked enough breeding partners to sustain their numbers, and they have died out over the years since.

The reason for the wild Arcans can be explained by the highlighted section. Not only would they retain their humanity it would stand to reason if their human minds weren't up to par their new arcan minds wouldn't be also. Remember also that at the end they were forcing children into the process so think of a 6 or 7 year old mentality in Arcan form. Now also notice the Shadowfox said that some breeds died out from not enough breeding partners, so that still leaves us with how can Umbra, Kyven and 3 kits be enough to sustain the Shadowfox Arcan breed. Finally the decendents of the original Arcans pass on their humanity the same way a human does to their children would be my guess, it would be ingrained into their DNA.

This says, only that humans were used but that arcans came from animals implying that animals were transformed. The process may have involved using one human to transform two or more arcans out of animals(with no transfer of consciousness,) the blending of human and animal to create two arcans one with a human consciousness and the other animal, or the former with a blending of consciousnesses.
The further breeding of shadow fox arcans should not be a problem if both sets of genes don't have any recessive problems. The Shadow Fox has made one mistake in this area already which Hopefully put her on her guard. She may also have had to deal with this problem before with the shadow foxs.

[hoppy]

I'm suprised Kyven didn't persue how the Ancients used magic. The whole conflict is about how crystals, which are the basis for alchemical power, are running out. But the Ancients didn't need crystals! If the Arcans could discover that process, there's a chance it could prevent the entire war. Of course, there's also a chance it could revive the barbarous practices that the spirits will never allow.

Though as soon as the Loremasters found out the Arcans had that knowledge, they would attack. But it would open up so many possibilities for the arcan council to ponder.

The reason why the ancients didn't need crystals is why the breach happened in the first place.

That is territory the spirits won't allow anyone to explore.

Err, did it not say that their FURTHER experimentation did it?
(like trying to make an shaman energy h-bomb or some such kind of thing)

Umm, maybe they do not like what was happening before that either, and there was always possibility of something it happening and what ever caused the breach was just more dangerous.

[boballab]

The Shadowfox stated that it took 2 to make 1 Arcan, 1 Animal and 1 Human.

Understand, my Shaman, it takes two to create an Arcan; the animal and the human, and the nature of the creation required that the human be willing—or at least not struggle during the process. But what those humans were not told was that they would not be the end result. The animal became the Arcan, Shaman. The human only served to sacrifice himself to grant his humanity to the animal.

The Shadowfox also stated that the more exotic Arcans died out over the years because of not enough breeding pairs. This means as the years go by the DNA from all that inbreeding breaks down. It works just like a copy machine where you make a copy of a copy. Each time the end result is a little more fuzzier. Right now the most exotic Arcan is the Shadowfox Arcan.

I think the Loremasters probably run along the old Soviet System. A small group at the top that knows all the secrets and keeps things going their way. Also the spirits say the Loremasters are trying to resurect the past expirements of the Ancients and Fel has stated that the creation of the Arcans lead directly to the breach. So how do you resurrect the past expirements? You try expirements yourselves. Couple of things to remember at this point The Human has to be immobile to turn one into an Arcan and the Loremasters could use a collar for that I believe. The Human has to die to transfer his humanity, well the Loremasters control the black crystals which is based on death magic so they have a magical means to do it. The Loremasters would have a better understanding of Alchemy then the Ancients from years of using it so I don't think it is past the realm of possiblity that they have been taking criminals, ie any masked caught, and been expirmenting on them to turn them into Arcans.

That is the grim origin of the Arcans, Shaman. They were created for war, and created by exacting a horrific price on the humans who died to make them. That is what we fight against, Shaman. The Loremasters want to resurrect the past, but we will not permit them to become what perished from the earth

The shadowfox is telling Kyven that the Loremasters want to bring back all of the past including the ability to make more Arcans, the smarter Arcans not the relativitly useless wild ones. What do you think is going to happen when the buyout strategy goes into effect and there is a sudden shortage of Arcans? The Loremasters are going to panic, they will realize that there is a huge amount of free Arcans out there now and the future backbone of there economy went with it. They would push even harder to use that past method of making new Arcans, one for the workers they need to replace and two to make a collared, slave Army to fight the escaped Arcans. This Cystal buyout plan could be the first step towards what they feared, forcing the Loremasters to go faster then they want to and becoming sloppy in their expirements.

[hoppy]

The Shadowfox stated that it took 2 to make 1 Arcan, 1 Animal and 1 Human.

Understand, my Shaman, it takes two to create an Arcan; the animal and the human, and the nature of the creation required that the human be willing—or at least not struggle during the process. But what those humans were not told was that they would not be the end result. The animal became the Arcan, Shaman. The human only served to sacrifice himself to grant his humanity to the animal.

How do you get those specific numbers out of this very general quote which seems to be talking about parts not giving specific recipe

The Shadowfox also stated that the more exotic Arcans died out over the years because of not enough breeding pairs. This means as the years go by the DNA from all that inbreeding breaks down. It works just like a copy machine where you make a copy of a copy. Each time the end result is a little more fuzzier. Right now the most exotic Arcan is the Shadowfox Arcan.

Each copy is a separate one and problems will not happen until it's children or children's children mate. The shadow fox should be familiar with this I doubt if it started with that many shadow foxes.

I think the Loremasters probably run along the old Soviet System. A small group at the top that knows all the secrets and keeps things going their way.

I did not say this before, because I did not not want to be seen as nit picking, but in the Soviet system the leadership seldom knew what was going on. Their subordinates often lied when reality did not fit their preconceptions.

Also the spirits say the Loremasters are trying to resurect the past expirements of the Ancients and Fel has stated that the creation of the Arcans lead directly to the breach. So how do you resurrect the past expirements? You try expirements yourselves. Couple of things to remember at this point The Human has to be immobile to turn one into an Arcan and the Loremasters could use a collar for that I believe. The Human has to die to transfer his humanity, well the Loremasters control the black crystals which is based on death magic so they have a magical means to do it. The Loremasters would have a better understanding of Alchemy then the Ancients from years of using it so I don't think it is past the realm of possiblity that they have been taking criminals, ie any masked caught, and been expirmenting on them to turn them into Arcans.

That is the grim origin of the Arcans, Shaman. They were created for war, and created by exacting a horrific price on the humans who died to make them. That is what we fight against, Shaman. The Loremasters want to resurrect the past, but we will not permit them to become what perished from the earth

The shadowfox is telling Kyven that the Loremasters want to bring back all of the past including the ability to make more Arcans, the smarter Arcans not the relativitly useless wild ones. What do you think is going to happen when the buyout strategy goes into effect and there is a sudden shortage of Arcans? The Loremasters are going to panic, they will realize that there is a huge amount of free Arcans out there now and the future backbone of there economy went with it. They would push even harder to use that past method of making new Arcans, one for the workers they need to replace and two to make a collared, slave Army to fight the escaped Arcans. This Cystal buyout plan could be the first step towards what they feared, forcing the Loremasters to go faster then they want to and becoming sloppy in their expirements.

She is again talking in general terms, while can be inferred that they wish to make more arcans...

[ANTIcarrot]

By remarkably coincidence, living shadows have been the topic of another well known science fiction story of late... That's right Fel! Steven Moffat has been plagerising your work!

Minor point: If Danna choses to become a shadow fox arcan, this would mean there would be three SFA females, not two, as Shad would no doubt give Danna's 'humanity' to another vixen.

Hmm. We seem to be backsliding to the 'earth air fire water' system. Kyven is acting like all animal life is composed of Human, Animal, Monster and Spirit. (As opposed to oxygen, carbon, nitrogen, amino acids, DNA, and all that other boring stuff biologists harp on about.) There are any number of reasons why any particular alchemy technique might need a human to turn an animal into an arcan. As others have pointed out. Arcans can easily make new arcans; without any apparent affect on the human population. The ''genocide' method was probably used only because it was quick and cheap. There are probably other ways alchemy can do it; even if Shadow Fox doesn't know how.

Come to think of it, why is Shadow Fox using a crude technique, optimised for mass production, and which was invented by humans hundreds of years ago? Is this another restriction she/other spirits operate under? (No introducing new ideas?) Or is she/other spirits simply not very creative? Or is it just her? Cunning isn't the same as educated after all.

The spirits seem to view non-spirit magic in the same way the US views nuclear technology. (Bombs, fission/fusion plants - and also interesting rocket engines, medical scanners, cancer treatments, computers, solar power, etc.) That is to say they're rather schizophrenic on the subject ("Don't burn fossil fuels, but for gods sake don't use nukes either!") and would prefer no one else on the planet had any. Nor does the US government seem to understand that nuclear technology has more than two uses, or that knowledge is interconnected. If a country knows how to build a MRI scanner or treat cancer, they know enough to build a power-plant or bomb within a few years. If you deny them the latter, you deny them the former. I wonder how humanity and a more mature arcan culture would react when they realise the nature of the baby being thrown out with the bath water.

In context, once you know the underlying physics of how the a crystal lamp makes light, then you can work out how to convert light directly into magical energy. Would the spirit's prohibition against synthetic magic cover things like solar-magic panels? Or are they only worried about things like fission-magic reactors?

[expedient]

The Shadowfox also stated that the more exotic Arcans died out over the years because of not enough breeding pairs. This means as the years go by the DNA from all that inbreeding breaks down. It works just like a copy machine where you make a copy of a copy. Each time the end result is a little more fuzzier. Right now the most exotic Arcan is the Shadowfox Arcan.

Each copy is a separate one and problems will not happen until it's children or children's children mate. The shadow fox should be familiar with this I doubt if it started with that many shadow foxes.

++ Agreed. We just don't know yet, and DNA certainly doesn't degrade the further copies you make. Recessive gene causing problems in inbreeding is a very complex issue, and not all that well understood. The other Arcans with not enough breeding pairs may have died out due to proximity issues, or susceptibility to a particular infection, or excessive hunting for their pelts... or any number of things that affect low populations.

I think the Loremasters probably run along the old Soviet System. A small group at the top that knows all the secrets and keeps things going their way.

I did not say this before, because I did not not want to be seen as nit picking, but in the Soviet system the leadership seldom knew what was going on. Their subordinates often lied when reality did not fit their preconceptions.

Just so. Remember the Soviets were not the only ones spreading misinformation and fear through propaganda. The governments in the West too had some of our deceptions come back to bite us.

[expedient]

In context, once you know the underlying physics of how the a crystal lamp makes light, then you can work out how to convert light directly into magical energy. Would the spirit's prohibition against synthetic magic cover things like solar-magic panels? Or are they only worried about things like fission-magic reactors?

I was wondering if there was a safe way of using the energy without leading to Breach-capable scenarios. Fel's comment above suggests not. An alternative explanation may be that the Spirits are getting something out of the Shaman method (aside from control of the uses and practitioners).

[expedient]

Until now I’ve been kind of agnostic on the Loremasters, wanting to give them the benefit of the doubt. I mean, obviously, I have strong feelings against slavery (and as a child of the Civil Rights generation I’ve had to be able to hold my own on issues surrounding discrimination ever since I could talk). I was, however, willing to accept that they were misguided . This last chapter has changed that.

When Kyven starts infiltrating the Loremasters’ HQ, if finds out that a) the Loremasters are fully aware of the Arcan origins, b) they have some semi-functional Arcan conversion equipment, c) they have Breach event apparatus, and d) one or all of these are part of their plans to restore the Great Ancient Civilisation, then there’s gonna have to be an almighty bloodbath.

Fel in the past has let things get to the brink and then pulled the miracle solution. Let there be a little righteous vengeance, please... It would make me feel better .

[boballab]

There was nothing vague about the Shadowfox's statement. She stated it took 2 to make an Arcan then explained the procedure. 1 human and 1 animal were used, the human died and the animal was transformed into the Arcan. Now at the end did the ancients try to push the boundries and use 1 human to make more then 1 Arcan we don't know, that could have been the expirement that caused the breach, but in the begining it was 1 human, 1 animal making 1 Arcan. What is over looked is that Kyven and the other Shaman can make more Arcans, since Alchemy made the first Arcans. We know that Umbra had competition to be the one changed by the Shadowfox, so we can assume from that there would be other monsters willing to become Arcans. What we have to find for that to happen is willing Humans or humans maybe that Kyven wants to punish as an example. What about humans like Clep that loves an Arcan? I think they would be willing to be changed to be able to have children with the person they love.

Now inbreeding is a well known commodity in breeders of cats, dogs, horses and labratory mice.
http://cc.ysu.edu/~helorime/inbred.html
The metaphor of the copy machine is apt. Over time both lead to non viable ends, in the copy machine an unreadable copy, in the animal sterile and/or immune deficiencies in the off spring. Breeders have long used inbreeding to lock in traits into the animals they breed, however they have to bring in outside genetic material to stave off inbreeding depression. In endangered species it has been noted that inbreeding can lead to a faster road to extinction since all the offspring have the same immune systems. This means that they all have the same weaknesses and strengths. One disease that they are all weak to kills off the species.
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/199907/dog-genetics/5
This article explains the history of dogs genetics and what has happened in the last couple of hundred years with Inbreeding.

[furry_wolf2001b]

I think it is more likely they could not find a compatible mate out in the wild, remember that there where no civilization there for a while.
Well much of it.
So if there was one in one village or town, that dose no real good if the breeding mate is somewhere else.
Then are the fact that they may not WANT to breed with some one that is compatible if they are too closely related.
That may or may not be true.
But again.i doubt any wild arcan could travel all over the continent in search of a compatible mate and find one often enuf to keep the species going.
So again, the numbers game looks grim unless you have a town or such that all of them could gather and mingle.
But arcans did not have anything like that at the time as far as we know, and there where no communication that could make one happen after the explosion.
Even humans owning one may not care, or be able to get a breeding partner for a rare arcan at that time.
And a rare one would cost more i guess, so it would be further disadvantage in getting more.
Selling rare arcans may not be all that profitable either if other things are more pressing, and perhaps not having an upper class yet to spend their assets on luxuries like on a rare pet arcan slave.

[furry_wolf2001b]

and as for transforming humans, no i don't think so.
Transforming animals to arcans with the humans as the "fuel" as has already been done yes perhaps, but one thing spring to mind.
Why bother.
Killing is way simpler, and if you want arcans, you simply purchase one for a lot less trubble.
I doubt they are all that hard for cash to bother making and selling arcans.
And why would annyone WANT to make an arcan out of an enemy, -way- too risky (escape etc), and another thing, all who died was humans, not the animal for some reason, why i have no idea, but can be something simple as security, or training ability, i mean humans can be wherry ornery creatures.

A humans life is not really worth the bother.
And the gain don't seem worth the risk or effort.

But i could be wrong, but arcans don't seem to cost much at all.