Spirit Walker - Spoilers - Chapters 1 through part of 14

[ANTIcarrot]

I think we are missing what is meant by the term Great Ancient Civilization. The Great Ancient Civilization is not one country or even continent, it is the entire world.

Or even more. We don't know how far 'we' got with space travel.

The average people of Noraam really don't think much about what happened on the other side of the world during the war because it has no effect on their daily lives. <snip> the average serf didn't give a fig about what has happened or is happening in China, if he even knew such a place existed.

Except that none of the characters (apart from possibly Patches and Teacup) in these stories are average surfs. I would especially expect the 'godlike' spirits or the shamans to be better informed than that. I'd especially expect it to come up during "We don't hate all humans" statements. It's always nice to come across american authors who are graceful enough to admit their nation really dragged their feet over slavery, rather than leading the charge, as many of them like to pretend.

Now the thing to note and the reason everything in the story that would be important would occur in Noraam is very simple. The failed experiment that resulted in the making of mana crystals is in Noraam. This allowed Noraam to advance faster then anywhere else

Giving PCs to american indians would not help them advance faster than europeans, unless they were shown how to use them first. Have you considered the (large) number of discoveries the noraams would have had to make before they realised that crystals could be used for anything? More conventional techniques would have had a head start while the noraams figured all that out. Spirit Walker implies that the loremasters playing around with electricity is a recent thing.

And again, it is exceptionally difficult to destroy all or even most technology without killing off the humans.

[boballab]

Actually it is very easy to destroy modern technology and its civilization, if you have access to 6 to 8 nuclear warheads in the right megatonnage range and the knoweledge to use it, which the Great Ancient Civ would have had, it is easy. Detonate at correct spots in the atmosphere and generate an EMP pulse that covers the world. EMP that is all it takes, anything that is not 1960's era tech will cease to function unless specifically shielded. Anything that relies on computer control such as: the power grid, every modern vehicle, anything with an integrated device instantly stops working. Combine that with the majority of the population dead, food sources destroyed and contaminated, very few domesicated working animals after a nuclear war and Humanity falls back to being Hunter-gatherers.

[Weresmilodon]

After that, all that's needed are a few generations without proper schooling, and most of the population won't know how to read or write anymore. In a civilization where everyone needs to work all the time to ensure survival, passing down non-vital information that takes years to learn properly is a waste of resources. Thinking of it that way, it's something of a surprise that they actually preserved the written language.
Though they might not have, they could have developed a new, similar language after the new civilization was stabilized. Then the Loremasters would only have to find anything surviving time, and decipher it for the knowledge...

[MrNerdHair]

Actually it is very easy to destroy modern technology and its civilization, if you have access to 6 to 8 nuclear warheads in the right megatonnage range and the knoweledge to use it, which the Great Ancient Civ would have had, it is easy. Detonate at correct spots in the atmosphere and generate an EMP pulse that covers the world. EMP that is all it takes, anything that is not 1960's era tech will cease to function unless specifically shielded. Anything that relies on computer control such as: the power grid, every modern vehicle, anything with an integrated device instantly stops working. Combine that with the majority of the population dead, food sources destroyed and contaminated, very few domesicated working animals after a nuclear war and Humanity falls back to being Hunter-gatherers.

Well... not so much. Sure, most satellites would be dead, and most commercial and civilian computing equipment would be a total loss, but the majority of military communications equipment, especially the fixed-position stuff in military bases, is shielded specifically against this kind of an attack because of the threat of terrorist attacks using simple, home-made EMP bombs built using a car battery, thick wires, a modest amount of high explosives, and a microcontroller ($500-$1k price range). The point being, that this kind of attack has been known about since the '60s, and many peices of equipment are protected from it.

Furthermore, just increasing the amount of energy that goes into the EMP isn't enough to defeat shielding against one. The damage that is caused to integrated circuits by an EMP is caused by an extremely small amount of power (on the order of microamps) being applied to the chip in precisely the ideal manner to blow its circuit components. The shielding consists of (essentially) putting your equipment in a metal box, and to get rid of the shielding, you'd have to have enough power to melt the box first. Sure, that's not such a problem, but field strength is governed by the inverse-square law... to have enough power to defeat most shielded devices at a range of even a mile or two, you'd probably end up with field strength sufficient to boil the water inside any human being within 10 miles.

I'm not saying that the Breach had energy levels lower than this, or that the Great Aincent Civ didn't command this kind of power, but if this kind of power was involved, an EMP is probably not what happened because there would have been more leftover tech, and more dead bodies. Maybe the spirits contributed to the depletion of technology from the world? (Yeah, it's a far-fetched deus ex machina, but it fits with my pet theory of the spirits actually being evil )

Edit for clarification: The point I was trying to make was that with a lot of military tech left over, there would be enough power in the hands of the pre-Breach governments to maintain order, and thus the Loremasters would know more about them. Therefore, since this is not true, an EMP must not have been the primary technological-destruction mechanism in the Breach, because if it were, things would be much different.

[boballab]

After that, all that's needed are a few generations without proper schooling, and most of the population won't know how to read or write anymore. In a civilization where everyone needs to work all the time to ensure survival, passing down non-vital information that takes years to learn properly is a waste of resources. Thinking of it that way, it's something of a surprise that they actually preserved the written language.
Though they might not have, they could have developed a new, similar language after the new civilization was stabilized. Then the Loremasters would only have to find anything surviving time, and decipher it for the knowledge...

Thats the whole point we don't know how long ago the War was. They had to get to the point where people started thinking long term again. Then find a cache of books that had the right information they needed and as you said probably translate it. Most of the technical knoweledge is no longer being kept on paper, its being kept on Hard drives, CD's and DVD's. Then you have the knoweledge on paper, how many books will survive that long before rotting away.

On to Shileded Electronics well I got to tell you it still doesn't help you. I spent 11 years in the US Navy part of it in the Nuclear Field. The Milspec stuff only lasts for so long because of one little problem: power generation. The Civilian Power Generation system is not shielded and the cost to do so was prohibitive. What the Military has is only designed so as not to allow the Soviets to get away with an EMP attack without getting nuked in return that is all. There is none, nada, zip, zilch, zero way to save civilization at that point. The whole premise of Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD) is that we take you down with us. There is no plan to "win" a Nuclear war. All that happy horseshit in the 50's and 60's about shelters was just that horseshit. The government lied, let me say that again, LIED to the American people about what they could do after a nuclear war. That was done to help stave off panic especially in 1962 during the Cuban missle crises. All those shelters they built way back in the 50's are now closed they are no longer used there will be no survivng government. There is a reason that they put the President on a specially designed Plane. Fixed Ground Facilities will be destoyed, all military bases will be gone, every city near a military base gone and once the Presidents plane runs out of fuel well he's gone too. Now after that type of war survivng electronics and equipment, what doesn't get blown up when those bases those fixed assets sit on when they get nuked, has some interesting things happen to them. One of the things the US Navy learned with using Nuclear power was that metals turn brittle and break much faster after they are exposed to a lot of radiation. So alot of things will just fall apart in 30 years from that. Remember when they came up with the EMP attack scenerio it was to knock out the other sides electronincs so they couldn't use Nukes back that was all. That way the Soviets could use there greater manpower to overwhelm the west in a conventional war. Once the missile silos were shielded and the advent of the Ballistic missile sub that scenerio would never be used as a stand alone attack just as a prelude to all out Nuke exchange.

[furry_wolf2001b]

One don't automatically start to not think in the long run.
And i do believe that at least locally people will at least teach their kids to read.

But one point, with all this crystal technology, the rest of the world must not be as dependent on it, or at least have been trying to do the same stuff for a long time now without the crystals, simply because they do not have that kind of access to allot of crystals.
Except by importing em, witch sounds horribly expensive, witch again would spark interest in non crystal procedures to do things.

Do arcans only live on the American continent?
Or did they just turn up there?
If they originally was native only to the American continent they would by now be on the others as a slavery export would have them spread to the others in contact.
And if you dont have allot of spare crystals for collars there...

[boballab]

Do arcans only live on the American continent?
Or did they just turn up there?
If they originally was native only to the American continent they would by now be on the others as a slavery export would have them spread to the others in contact.
And if you dont have allot of spare crystals for collars there...

I wondered when that question would come up. If they are only native to Noraam they would be a good export commodity except for one thing: the crystals needed to run all those collars. Unlike the Slaves brought to America in the 16 and 1700's where you could make manacles and chains locally, you would also have to import the collars and crystals as well from overseas. Crystals aren't cheap and the farther away you get from where they are from the price will rise. It was probably economically unfeasible to export large number of Arcans to other areas. However that leads to what was different about Noraam then anywhere else in the world that would bring about Arcans. The answer is the Breach occured in Noraam. What if the Energy that came through the Breach not only brought Mana Crystals but also mutated Human and animal DNA? Remember SHaman ability is genetic to both Arcans and Humans. So Kyven even before becoming an Arcan must have shared some DNA with Arcans to allow him to become a Shaman, same with the prostitute in Avannar. Something like the first Were-Kin in the Firestaff series and Human telepaths in Subjugation

[ANTIcarrot]

Actually it is very easy to destroy modern technology and its civilization,

Actually it's very very very hard. Especially after another ten years or so when we'll probably replace silicon with something else, and most of the replacements are not nearly as vulnerable to EMP. (By about 20 years, weaponised lasers of some sort will have appeared on the battlefield. Which kinda makes limited strikes of this kind a complete non starter.) And that's 100MT+ range at ISS=< altitude - which no one has managed yet. Please stop using Hollywood and/or GW Bush as a science teacher.

The problems start with everything that is shielded. Submarines for example. Ships. Hardened commerce bunkers. Hardened military bunkers. Military equipment. Lunar outposts. Or fairly conventional electronics. Or (since the EMP needs an aerial of some sort) simply ANY technology that's not plugged in to the mains. Museum equipment also springs to mind. Even a car with a fried timer chip can be repaired fairly easily, because a distributer cap will do the same job. It'll do horrid things to fuel efficiency, but generating pulses of electricity in the right order isn't that tricky.

Again, please stop using Hollywood and/or GW Bush as a science teacher. Ditto for the current Firetail. I have a fairly strong feeling that for all his knowledge of shaman magic, he'd fail any basic science test.

[expedient]

I’m gonna go on a huge speculation fest!

Kyven’s shadow abilities may have some similarities to the Shadow Dragon that Tarrin Kael faces. So they may include:
a) shadow invisibility
b) the ability to cast shadow - maybe like a mild disorientation version of shadow dragon breath
c) shadow jumping - a method of teleporting from one shadow to another
d) phase shifting - the ability to pass through solid objects, or inside items / people

These would certainly be powers to rival a shaman as hinted at by the Shadow Fox.


There has been suggestion of shapeshifting. It seems the Shadow Fox’s hint about ‘help’ and Kyv’s blood in Danna provides some kind of clue. Could the blood link between them:
a) boost raw shaman power potential, or
b) allow an exchange between human-arcan forms as a swap, or
c) simply allow them to communicate in some way?

Certainly being human offers up more options than just appearing human


Kyv also special totem-shaman abilities:
a) strength in illusion
b) healing
c) disguise

Also mentioned is deceit, does this suggest part of Shadow Fox illusion is:
d) influencing minds?

Do healing abilities include:
e) regeneration?
After all Clover recovers from her pistol wound.

Kyven also spent ten years studying crystals. If the creation of crystals is less a function of a shaman’s power and more one of understanding and concentration, he may be able to produce white or rare cut crystals.


I’d take a guess at this point that the shamans appearing is caused by Spirit energy influence. Arcans have crystals close to them all their lives in the form of collars. Kyven spent ten years working with crystals and his father was a crystal miner. Would generational build up of talent be explained by closer proximity to spirit world energy? It might also explain why affinity to those energies appear in arcans first.



I like the solutions offered up by MrNerdHair (drain all crystals) and ANTIcarrot (create fear of a fake 3rd party enemy) but both would lead to all out war in my opinion. This is not the Shadow Fox way, she wants everyone so confused that they’re not even sure that there is an enemy, until it’s too late.

It seems to me that the Shadow Fox is not entirely in sync with the rest of the sentient spirit world. Kyven could find himself fighting a war against the humans, disrupting trade of crystals and arcan slaves. Planting the seeds of mistrust against the Loremasters, spreading sedition on the grounds of hoarding technology, information and crystals. Defending himself against the mainstream spirits as they send the other shaman to kill him in order to, in their eyes, prevent war. All whilst trying to get the girl, kill the bad guys and save the entire planet (ref. Total Recall).



There are also a number of outstanding story threads that could change everything.
a) After the War climatic Breach in North America large mana crystal concentrations are deposited in Smokey Mountains / Angry Sea. What level are the rest of the planet at? What power source do they use? If Noraam loses crystal power would they be threatened by another large nation.
b) Are Arcans on other continents? Were the Arcans around before the Breach? If so were Arcans used in the War? What was the reason for the War? Energy? Arcan slavery? Why do Arcans show a lack of creativity? Why are some wild?
c) Are the Loremasters evil and hoarding information and technology? Do Loremasters have a secret writing language - Danna seems to use one when she first questions Kyven? Recovering history requires not only understanding language but context, society and their technology, do the Loremasters not understand the Ancient writings and artifacts or are they trying to hide the true history?
d) How powerful are the larger black crystals and the stronger shamans?

In a near extinction event it would be possible for artificial man-made creatures, designed to be breed quicker and be more robust than humans, to catch up in numbers even from a large difference over a couple of millennia. Even from a standing start 250 million may be achievable.

Anyway, loving it Fel. Excellent work as always!

[boballab]

Heres some food for thought: Fel's original outline for the story

http://forums.sennadar.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1078

[ANTIcarrot]

Heres some food for thought: Fel's original outline for the story
http://forums.sennadar.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1078

Oh my. That does shed new light on things. And indeed, this has some of the standard hallmarks of a furry story. Fel does seem to like his stratified societies, and you can't get more stratified than furry.

And I'm afraid if that is the plot, I'm going to have to throw my lot in firmly with the Loremasters. Corrupt and stupid as they are, they can stand on their own feet (once they get over their silly crystal obsession) and they can in theory get better. The arcans have chosen to be dependent on hand outs from the spirits. They've swapped one collar for another, and while that is their right, I would not want to join them in that venture.

[expedient]

I'm afraid if that is the plot, I'm going to have to throw my lot in firmly with the Loremasters. Corrupt and stupid as they are, they can stand on their own feet (once they get over their silly crystal obsession) and they can in theory get better. The arcans have chosen to be dependent on hand outs from the spirits. They've swapped one collar for another, and while that is their right, I would not want to join them in that venture.

You might be right. I'm not sure that I'd want to pitch in with a bunch of fanatics like the Loremasters though. Wouldn't want to have much to do with the slavery and killing even semi-intelligent beasts for their fur. Guess that puts me in the Frontier...

[boballab]

Thats the thing some humans don't want to be under the Loremasters thumbs. Its been pointed out a couple of times. In ch 1 Kyven mentioned some people thought the Loremasters were an evil force.

Some men hated the Loremasters, saw them as overlords, a shadowy organization that killed anyone who crossed them, but Kyven hadn’t really thought of them that way

Then you have humans that are moving out into the frontier that don't want to use the crystal tech and some are even friendly to the Arcans.

Kyven was surprised to hear that there were actually quite a few humans in the wilderness south and west of the village, mainly isolated settlers who were willing to live without crystal-based technology and rough it. Some of them were even in contact with the Arcans of Haven, though they had no idea they were from Haven, or that there was a Haven. Their visitors were Arcans they thought were escaped slaves would trade with them, trading pelts and animal meat for agricultural goods like wheat and vegetables, or chickens, or other things. The humans who were friendly to the Arcans helped by keeping them abreast of what was going on in their area, since some of the scattered humans lived close enough to communicate with each other.

Maybe that is where the Shaman should start. Start with Humans that don't rely on crystal based tech, ones that already have some trust with the Arcans. They might be able to find what they need to help them in Noraam there.

[expedient]

I'd like to know what the ratio between arcan and human has worked out to in the actual story. 10 humans to every arcan seems too low. In towns and cities, maybe, but when you take rural populations into account... Assuming most farm worker are arcan (as observed so far) and 70% of the population living outside of towns, 4 to 1 seems more likely. In Noraam anyway.

Then you have other arcan concentrations in breeding pens and outside Noraam control...

[boballab]

This quote is taken from Fel's original outline to the story:

The new Legacy would study this unusual world where the remnants of a once-powerful human race seek to rediscover the mighty secrets of their ancestors, while they contend with the Arcana, who are bigger than them, stronger than them, faster than them, and have Shaman who can wield the power of magic, yet whom they enslave because humans are more educated than Arcans (but not necessarily smarter), and the human race outnumbers the Arcana by one hundred to one

What has been slightly talked about but never seen is that each of the 10 Kingdoms have armies. How big these armies are we don't know, but you can bet they are mostly all human armies. Most of the story has taken place in the Free Territories not in the Kingdoms, so we don't know how society runs there nor how many Arcans are in the Kingdoms. Best way to describe this world is think of the original 13 american colonies and look at how slavery was then. In the North where industry became the driving factor due to poorer ground and climate for farming there was few slaves, while in the south with the better climate and soil there was many slaves to tend farms. If those factors hold over into Spirit then there might be less Arcan slaves then you realize. You will see more Arcan slaves in areas that use more manual labor such as farming, remember most humans consider the Arcans to be stupid. They won't try to use Arcans where there is multiple tasks because of that.