Earth Bond Chapter 18 Discussion (spoilers!)

[GBLW]

Go watch Titanic again. Where this happens on screen. There is no such things as a area of the ship below the waterline that will (A) sink the ship if flooded and (B) has no people inside. If you want to get really creative, we can also add requirement (C) that the captain won't ordered sealed (with sailors trapped inside) in order to save the ship. Crimson Tide is another film which shows what really happens when ships start to leak badly. In both cases pay close attention to what actually happens to some of the sailors in the flooding compartments. What the dragons are planning will kill people. The fact that they're going in with the attitude that this is going to be a cake walk, means they'll probably kill lots of people.

Oh come off it - comparing 1912 technology and Hollywood BS with real life? Get real for once. I am NOT saying you need to rip a HUGE hole in the side of the ship - just a large enough hole through as many compartments as necessary to make sinking slow but inevitable. In which case it is the actions of the Captain which is the deciding factor in how many people die, so in that case you are right! He can seal compartments in an attempt to stop the flooding, but if he realizes how badly his ship is damaged he won't - of course since we know the reputation of the Chinese and their lack of respect for life of their citizens . . . I suppose he might sacrifice some of his own citizens.

Fel esentially has the choice to nerf china's technology, which includes rescue/damage-control technology (which means dead sailors) or he doesn't, which means dead dragons (and huge numbers of dead sailors!) when they learn that chinese can in fact track dead-space underwater (like all navies can since the 80s) and that sea-dragons are in fact the second fastest thing in the ocean. Or he could put in some kind of throwaway line about how the dragons studied very hard, and so they didn't kill anyone, but that would be the incredibly incompetent author approach.

Oh please, we are discussing Water Dragons here and if I'm correct, they do not show up as 'dead space' under water, instead they 'mimic' the water they are in. Besides, Fel has at least four other choices I can think of right now that will allow them to stop the Chinese ships and even one that has the Chinese abandon some of their ships before the Dragons have to sink them. (However, I'm going to be mean and NOT tell you my ideas right now, just in case I might be ruining Fel's plot line. )

If the dragons are caught stealing from a warship that sunk with sailors on board, they instantly face international condemnation from all nations with a military naval tradition. Pretty much everyone in the G8. THe people they'd like to trade with.

Oh yeah, then how is that going to happen - because in order to face condemnation they have to be seen as sentient. Animals such as fish and such aren't condemned for any action they take and lets face it, even the US of A has made no real attempt to recognize the dragons as anything more than exotic animals. There has been no official recognition AT ALL!

And it's not really a case of if, but when this happens. The Dragons murdered the citizens of china. (And of other countries?) They hack everyone's computer networks. They developed software weapons of mass destruction. They steal nuclear fuel. They steal technology. And they plan to steal priceless and irriplacable national treasures from china, and all of humanity. They don't respect anyone, and let's be completely honest: They're arragent as hell, think every other nation on the planet is their personal bitch, and they're not going to stop. Once they go public their ability to hide their actions and history will be significantly damaged. Soon or later other nations will notice, they'll eventually find something they really dislike, and then the dragons will finally have to face some consiquences for their actions. And gosh darn it, but won't that just be the end of the world?

Boy are you a pessimist! (but it's fun to argue with you! )

[tereszcz]

No. If the dragons are caught stealing from a warship that sunk with sailors on board, they instantly face international condemnation from all nations with a military naval tradition. Pretty much everyone in the G8. THe people they'd like to trade with.

And it's not really a case of if, but when this happens. The Dragons murdered the citizens of china. (And of other countries?) They hack everyone's computer networks. They developed software weapons of mass destruction. They steal nuclear fuel. They steal technology. And they plan to steal priceless and irriplacable national treasures from china, and all of humanity. They don't respect anyone, and let's be completely honest: They're arragent as hell, think every other nation on the planet is their personal bitch, and they're not going to stop. Once they go public their ability to hide their actions and history will be significantly damaged. Soon or later other nations will notice, they'll eventually find something they really dislike, and then the dragons will finally have to face some consiquences for their actions. And gosh darn it, but won't that just be the end of the world?

Your argument would hold if state of war did not exist between dragons & China. There was no formal declaration, but really, there haven't been a formal declaration of war since WW2 and we managed to be in war since Korean war without congress declaring war. Excuse me all these tens of thousands of US casualties were in policing actions

No one is accusing us servicemen of committing murder when they shoot few Talibans. At least, no one that matters. I am sure that there are quite a few muslims that would call us murders, but like I said they don't count in real politics. I don't think that there will be too much outrage when ten or 20 thousand Chinese soldiers drown. It is just a cost of doing business. Nobody cried when Mao offed 60 million Chinese in great leap forward.

Once the dragons sink the Chinese ships, it won't matter. They will be defacto nation. They control an area, and they can enforce their will there. Bingo, they are nation. I don't see any UN sanctions happening as long as US vetoes it & the politics say that a veto would happen

[GBLW]

And it's not really a case of if, but when this happens. The Dragons murdered the citizens of china. (And of other countries?) They hack everyone's computer networks. They developed software weapons of mass destruction. They steal nuclear fuel. They steal technology. And they plan to steal priceless and irriplacable national treasures from china, and all of humanity. They don't respect anyone, and let's be completely honest: They're arragent as hell, think every other nation on the planet is their personal bitch, and they're not going to stop. Once they go public their ability to hide their actions and history will be significantly damaged. Soon or later other nations will notice, they'll eventually find something they really dislike, and then the dragons will finally have to face some consiquences for their actions. And gosh darn it, but won't that just be the end of the world?

I think you and many others may well be missing one major point here. The Dragons are an alien species - not alien as in 'from another world,' but alien in that they do not think, act or look anything like human beings. So Fel has created an alien species who are 'in our sandbox' and they do not play by humanity's rules, in fact most of them don't want to play with humans in any way. While the human politicians have been acting as if the Dragons are exotic animals, the dragons have been looking at humans as somewhat interesting curiosities. When the story opened the Earth Dragons were the only subspecies which had any form of interaction with humans, but they've dragged the other four subspecies into interacting with humans now and what happens is all part of the interesting plot Fel has hatched.

So whatever happens, Fel is having fun and I'm enjoying the ride!

[Dreamer]

I think you and many others may well be missing one major point here. The Dragons are an alien species - not alien as in 'from another world,' but alien in that they do not think, act or look anything like human beings. So Fel has created an alien species who are 'in our sandbox' and they do not play by humanity's rules, in fact most of them don't want to play with humans in any way. While the human politicians have been acting as if the Dragons are exotic animals, the dragons have been looking at humans as somewhat interesting curiosities. When the story opened the Earth Dragons were the only subspecies which had any form of interaction with humans, but they've dragged the other four subspecies into interacting with humans now and what happens is all part of the interesting plot Fel has hatched.

So whatever happens, Fel is having fun and I'm enjoying the ride!

Well said.

And in regards to the sinking of the ships... these are WD we are talking about (able to create air bubbles around other dragons' heads), create/move ocean currents, change its density, etc. Has Fell said that the WD can't control how much, how fast, and how far the water goes into the ships? In my mind, I am seeing the "solid water " tentacles and face from the move The Abyss.

[SYED]

What if they simply used their magic to remove all water from the ship? So no water for cooling, plumbing or drinking!

Or simply beach the ships?

whyy not hook the ships beneath each, cause alot of trouble.

[Bigwind]

I think you and many others may well be missing one major point here. The Dragons are an alien species - not alien as in 'from another world,' but alien in that they do not think, act or look anything like human beings. So Fel has created an alien species who are 'in our sandbox' that they do not play by humanity's rules, in fact most of them don't want to play with humans in any way. While the human politicians have been acting as if the Dragons are exotic animals, the dragons have been looking at humans as somewhat interesting curiosities. When the story opened the Earth Dragons were the only subspecies which had any form of interaction with humans, but they've dragged the other four subspecies into interacting with humans now and what happens is all part of the interesting plot Fel has hatched.

So whatever happens, Fel is having fun and I'm enjoying the ride!

Just a quick point. I thought the dragons were in charge originally. So, doesn't this mean that, strictly speaking, we are in their "sandbox"?

[expedient]

Gaia's Sandbox. Man's bailiwick.

[konman]

Two things have been stuck in my mind with the current situation on the island.

#1
Kell mentions that Keth is looking for a few cows for milk. Now given the size of the Earth Dragons and the fact that when a human shakes hands with them they use the tip of a claw. Question How does a dragon milk a cow?

#2
Is it possible the reason that the Chinese are so up in arms about the dragons is because the magic the Chinese have been using all along stopped working since the Earth Dragons went underground and while they don't know why they know it is related to the dragons and they want their magic back?

[ANTIcarrot]

Oh please, we are discussing Water Dragons here and if I'm correct, they do not show up as 'dead space' under water, instead they 'mimic' the water they are in.

Why? Why would they have ever developed that capacity? Why would they 'just happen to have' a spell/ability custom built to exactly counter a threat they do not understand, and which did not exist until about thirty years ago? And why are you unable to admit that the dragons might not be completely and utterly perfect? Just because they live in the sea doesn't mean they know everything about it.

And the point here is not all the things the dragons can do. The issue here are the things the Chinese could do - and your insistance that they will automatically fail because... Why? Firstly that's an awful way to write a story. Secondly your constant insistance that the Chinese are inferior to the dragons in every possible way is a rather apalling attitude.

Oh yeah, then how is that going to happen - because in order to face condemnation they have to be seen as sentient. <snip> There has been no official recognition AT ALL!

When has Fel implied this might be a problem? The only reason the other nations haven't talked to the dragons is because the dragons didn't want to talk to them. I don't think anyone has denied that they're a sentient/sapient species, and I doubt anyone will.

I think you and many others may well be missing one major point here. The Dragons are an alien species - not alien as in 'from another world,' but alien in that they do not think, act or look anything like human beings.

'Doesn't look human' I'll give you. But the other two are false statements. They act and think exactly like a society of arrogent racist arsehats, of which human history provides many of examples. The only 'alien' quality they have is astonishing amount of good luck care of Fel.

[ANTIcarrot]

What if they simply used their magic to remove all water from the ship? So no water for cooling, plumbing or drinking! Or simply beach the ships? whyy not hook the ships beneath each, cause alot of trouble.

Can you spell Confirmation Bias? Generally speaking, a military force that is so focused on the many ways it can utterly crush the enemy, usually gets its arse kicked, because it wasn't paying attention to all the ways the enemy could hurt it; and the enemy wasn't being so careless.

[ANTIcarrot]

No. If the dragons are caught stealing from a warship that sunk with sailors on board, they instantly face international condemnation from all nations with a military naval tradition. Pretty much everyone in the G8. THe people they'd like to trade with.

And it's not really a case of if, but when this happens. The Dragons murdered the citizens of china. (And of other countries?) They hack everyone's computer networks. They developed software weapons of mass destruction. They steal nuclear fuel. They steal technology. And they plan to steal priceless and irriplacable national treasures from china, and all of humanity. They don't respect anyone, and let's be completely honest: They're arragent as hell, think every other nation on the planet is their personal bitch, and they're not going to stop. Once they go public their ability to hide their actions and history will be significantly damaged. Soon or later other nations will notice, they'll eventually find something they really dislike, and then the dragons will finally have to face some consiquences for their actions. And gosh darn it, but won't that just be the end of the world?

# # #

Your argument would hold if state of war did not exist between dragons & China.

If lots of people die as the ship goes down, you leave the wreck the hell alone. It's a simple principle.

No one is accusing us servicemen of committing murder when they shoot few Talibans. At least, no one that matters.

Wow. And that's a 'No True Scotsman'. Truely, this forum is awash with really dumb logic. And of course the mandatory strawman. The difference between the taliban and the chinese citizens, is that the chineze citizens didn't attack Dragon Island and kill 3,000 dragon civilians. Please explain what threat the chinese hackers posed, and how they are different from any number of hollywood films where the hackers are americans, and the people trying to kill them are evil? You've seen 'Enemy of the State'? If not it's on IMDB. Please explain why Will Smith deserved to die.

[GBLW]

they 'mimic' the water they are in.

Why? Why would they have ever developed that capacity? Why would they 'just happen to have' a spell/ability custom built to exactly counter a threat they do not understand, and which did not exist until about thirty years ago? And why are you unable to admit that the dragons might not be completely and utterly perfect? Just because they live in the sea doesn't mean they know everything about it.

Pardon me, but what is a Water Dragon's weapon? Water, right. If you fill a sonically neutral plastic balloon with water or a sonically neutral biological object with water, it will read as a WATER!

And the point here is not all the things the dragons can do. The issue here are the things the Chinese could do - and your insistance that they will automatically fail because... Why? Firstly that's an awful way to write a story. Secondly your constant insistance that the Chinese are inferior to the dragons in every possible way is a rather apalling attitude.

Oh, Please -- I feel they are on relatively equal footing, with a slight edge to the Dragons since they are defending themselves in their chosen environment, while you seem to be promoting the Chinese as all powerful, yet they are the invading force (And let's face it, the sea is not a 'natural' environment for any human, no matter how much technology we use to equalize the situation.) All I have been trying to do is to see ways and means that the dragons could use to defend themselves against the invading aggressor.

There has been no official recognition AT ALL!

When has Fel implied this might be a problem? The only reason the other nations haven't talked to the dragons is because the dragons didn't want to talk to them. I don't think anyone has denied that they're a sentient/sapient species, and I doubt anyone will.

That isn't so much my worry as it is the Dragons. They are the beings who asked the President to apply to the UN. However,I'm positive the Chinese would like the world to view the Dragons as animals, because then the Chinese could exploit them - IF they managed to subdue them in battle.

The Dragons are an alien species - not alien as in 'from another world,' but alien in that they do not think, act or look anything like human beings.

'Doesn't look human' I'll give you. But the other two are false statements. They act and think exactly like a society of arrogent racist arsehats, of which human history provides many of examples. The only 'alien' quality they have is astonishing amount of good luck care of Fel.

Arrogant and Racist, I'll agree with, but so what? Isn't a lion arrogant and racist? How about a wolf? Have you ever seen what a herd of elk will do to an invading group of deer when food is scarce? Arrogance and racism are common traits in almost all animals in one way or another, so I don't see that as a criteria.
The Dragons alien qualities have more to do with how they see themselves rather than how they see others.
How many human 'societies' are willing to isolate themselves for a thousand years?
How many human 'societies' are willing to be relatively non-aggresive? (Barring their 'need' to maintain their secret and to do that, one isolated group hacked into others computers, etc.)
I could go on, but I won't bother because you and I simply agree to disagree.

KP

[expedient]

Please explain what threat the chinese hackers posed, and how they are different from any number of hollywood films where the hackers are americans, and the people trying to kill them are evil? You've seen 'Enemy of the State'? If not it's on IMDB. Please explain why Will Smith deserved to die.

You keep bringing up this point and it's a good one in that any human society that heard about the dragons having assassinated any hackers who might have had the skills and determined curiosity to uncover the secret of the Department and therefore the Island would and should be appalled by the dragon nation's actions.

However, from the dragon's point of view they have been in a kind of cold war for one thousand years where significant numbers of humans were determined to exterminate them all. Rather than return the favor in all out war the dragons removed themselves from human reach and observation. In order to prevent (or more likely delay) a possible return to open war, as soon as they realized that the humans may be able to soon uncover their secret existence, the dragons have been seeking to understand the threat that humans might pose whilst attempting to maintain the secret by removing those who might make headway in unraveling said secret.

The earth dragons have gone beyond the remit of understanding human capabilities to implementing technology derived from their study of humans on the island.

So in summary Chinese "Will Smith" (Smith Will?) had to die in order to prevent the possible annihilation of the dragon species. Or at least delay any confrontation until the dragon nation felt that the chance of humans seeking their extermination was an extremely remote possibility.

[tereszcz]

# # #

Your argument would hold if state of war did not exist between dragons & China.

If lots of people die as the ship goes down, you leave the wreck the hell alone. It's a simple principle.

No one is accusing us servicemen of committing murder when they shoot few Talibans. At least, no one that matters.

Wow. And that's a 'No True Scotsman'. Truely, this forum is awash with really dumb logic. And of course the mandatory strawman. The difference between the taliban and the chinese citizens, is that the chineze citizens didn't attack Dragon Island and kill 3,000 dragon civilians. Please explain what threat the chinese hackers posed, and how they are different from any number of hollywood films where the hackers are americans, and the people trying to kill them are evil? You've seen 'Enemy of the State'? If not it's on IMDB. Please explain why Will Smith deserved to die.

You seem to forget that governments/people in power; really don't care much for morality or what is right or wrong. What only matters is power, influence and their wants. Case in point, Gerald Bull, assassinated by Mossad because he didn't play nice with state of Israel. It didn't matter that the technology he was developing might have opened up space industrialization. He threatened the survival of Israel. He had to go. The benefits to the humanity didn't trump the threat he posed to the Israel.

You want to talk about Taliban, OK, how do you justify 3000 people dying in a building vs, the thousands that died in Iraq and Afganistan. What kind of calculation was made that justified 3K+ of US servicemen dying in Afganistan plus all the other allied personnel. How do you justify trillions of $$$ spent in Afganistan & Iraq? If that trillions were spent on space research, materials, physics and other sciences how many lives would have been saved?

The point here is that the people in power do not make decisions based on morality. Their calculus is based on power, influence and prestige. The wants and needs of the many has no meaning to wants and needs of the top .01%, the rulers of this place. Sad, but this is the reality of the world.

Case in point, the wants of Mao trumped the needs of 60 million of Chinese during the cultural revolution and great jump forward. Now balance that, against few chinese hackers of 20K chinese sailors. It is not going to be even a blip on radar screen of the people who run the world. Not unless they get some kind of benefit from it.

[tereszcz]

I messed up on my cropping of quotes. Sorry about about. The quotes should have extended to next paragraph in the above post.