Tarrin and the God plane

[rick]

 Now that Tarin is on the God_plane could the gods destroy him with-out endangering Sennadar? And if the Answer is yes ,Why didn`t the Gods try that with Val? Or  is the fact that they would be vunable to destruction too keeping them from trying that ( a bit cowardly of them if you ask me).

[Calimbor]

Its not that the gods of sennadar hate Tarrin....I think.
Its more they wanted to get rid of him, because he was a danger to the balance (At least they thought he was). But now that he isn't IN sennadar and wether of not he'll be able to return is the gods choice, although Niami will proply have something to say about that.

So, they have no reason to destroy Tarrin.

They didn't do it to Val because they couldn't do that to Val, he was out of their sphere of influence, and so is/was Tarrin. Remember it was Tarrin's choice to "form" in the god's plane after he died on Pyrosia...

[Phantom]

Now that Tarin is on the God_plane could the gods destroy him with-out endangering Sennadar? And if the Answer is yes ,Why didn`t the Gods try that with Val? Or is the fact that they would be vunable to destruction too keeping them from trying that ( a bit cowardly of them if you ask me).

The God's of Sennadar Did Stike Val through Spyder and were able to remove him from the god plane   locking him into his Icon....and the mortal plane  

But they couldn't Destroy him  as the power it would have taken to do so would have laid waste to all of Sennadar making the dammage of the Blood war pale incomparision.  

Beside's the risk they would have had to take.. the only way they would have been able to do that is by using their Icons and putting their selfs at some physical Risk

If Val were to destroy their Icons then they would have been Locked out of the Mortal plane untill they could repair them... I think Fel wrote it would take a God a Millennium ? for them to do so....

It's a Lot cowardly  thats why Tarrin has such a big problem with the God's    that and they seem to be completely ungreatful
Tarrin Did everything they asked him to do.. and they Shun him and plot behind his back fearful of what they themselfs created... treating him no better then Val

Tarrin scares them they see him as a Direct threat to them.

And maybe he is.....but it's all their Fault's  

Tarrin made the Hard choices and sacrfices that needed to be made.



Phantom

[Phantom]

Its not that the gods of sennadar hate Tarrin....I think.

They are afraid of him and what he could do

Its more they wanted to get rid of him, because he was a danger to the balance (At least they thought he was). But now that he isn't IN sennadar and wether of not he'll be able to return is the gods choice, although Niami will proply have something to say about that

Thats for sure and she's loading for bear.
to say she's pissed..... I think would be an understatment

I think we could make the Case that Tarrin is her Son now.
She created his Body and held his Soul inside her
and with the help of her Mother rebreathed Life into him.

He's no longer just a Friend of Worshiper/Subject/Preist or what ever .......
He's her Son now even if he didn't come from her womb.
Humm that would explain her actions and defiance... to Ayise.
A mother protecting her Child

So, they have no reason to destroy Tarrin.

Only if he tries to return to sennadar then all bet's are off and the fight begins

They didn't do it to Val because they couldn't do that to Val, he was out of their sphere of influence, and so is/was Tarrin. Remember it was Tarrin's choice to "form" in the god's plane after he died on Pyrosia...

Not true if they had tried to destroy Val such as tarrin did it would have Destroyed Sennadar.. remember it took all of the Elder gods as well as the younger gods to limit the dammage Tarrin and Vals Fight caused... and it left a scar that can't be healed...

Tarrin like Val is a Child of the Firestaff and Outside the normal rules goverining the God's of Sennadar this also means Ayise has no copntrol over him she can't just withdraw life as it were. she would have to Physicaly do battle with him to kill him.

The Elder Gods through Spyder did confront Val Striking him down and Locking him in to him Icon traping him there. to do more would have required the god's to being their Icons to Val's and battle him physicaly
but that as we know would have destroyed Sennadar and the Balance...

Any way you look Tarrin get's Screwed...Damned if he does Damned if he dosen't ...




Phantom

[Calimbor]

When I said; "They didn't do it because they couldn't" - I was refearing to what I "thought" Rick meant when he said that Tarrin was on the god_plane and could be destroyed without endangering Sennadar. - Meaning they couldn't just "transport" Tarrin "up".  which they couldn't,

As far as I can recall the gods who are created through the firestaff doesn't reside on the godsplane or "their own personal plane" where the gods can truely be killed.

If they die, they just die. Their soul has no place to go, it is just destroyed - something about the price for using the firestaff. - if Tarrin did exist on multiple planes, he wouldn't have to make a soul trap to be restored, would he?

[Belgarion213]

No all gods just disappear when they die. A gods soul is tied to their power. Because they have transended mortality and exist somewhat on all planes when they die they have nowhere to go. Its not just Firestaff gods but all gods.

Tarrin probably did exist on the God plane when he fully assended he just put his mind into his Icon that was on Sennadar. Remember the God plane is where Gods really exist, however they can put their minds into their Icons and become true icons(I think thats how it goes).

[Calimbor]

Well if this is so....I don't get it then....Tarrin destroyed the One's Icon and yet he's going to "finish" the job up there, in the one's home plane where he "truely" exist. Else he'll just make another icon when he's gained enough power to reopen the link to Pyrosia....if he's already perma dead, what's the point in going up there...

And from what I understood, a god could only truely be killed on his home turf (home plane). If you destroyed the Icon you just destroyed the gods connection to that particular plane/world/univers...but he would eventually be able to make another in a few millenia...

[Fel]

Tarrin and Val were/are singularly unique in the multiverse because they are gods who exist completely and ONLY within the material realm.

Where all other gods exist in the outer planes, and project a portion of themselves into the material plane, Tarrin and Val had their true selves in the material world, locked in the bodies that were remade when the Firestaff changed them.  Those bodies are, in their own way, their own icons, but instead of serving as a focus to allow the god to project power into the mortal world, they housed the divine soul and protected it from the limits of the material plane.

That's what made them different, and that's also what made them so powerful.  Where any other god can only implement a portion of their true power in the mortal realm, Tarrin and Val could use ALL of it.  They weren't as strong as the Elder Gods, but this unique aspect made them equal in power.

To answer the original question, yes, if Tarrin were killed in the outer planes, it would do no harm to Sennadar.  Tarrin exists ONLY wherever he is.  He has no true self that dwells in an outer plane...his true self is wherever his body is.

The reason the Elder Gods couldn't do it to Val is for the reason stated right up there.  Val ONLY existed in Sennadar, because that's where his body was.  And the Elder Gods couldn't very well herd him out of the dimension without provoking a direct confrontation, which they couldn't afford.  Killing Val would have released all of his power into the world in an explosive release, that would destroy a large chunk of Sennadar.

They did the only thing they could do, combine their power and use Spyder as a tool to strike at Val in a moment of weakness.  They actually did Val dirty, by attacking him right after he helped kill the Demon Lord whom he himself had summoned.  The Elder Gods turned on him the instant the threat of the Demons were removed.  Spyder attacked him literally before the Demon Lord was dead.

Val made the mistake of trusting Ayise, and she stabbed him in the back.

No, I'm not trying to remake Val as a misunderstood dark hero.  He was a megalomaniac, he was evil, and he was brutal monster, but he wasn't stupid, and he also held to his word, despite his evil nature.  He was more than willing to adhere to his side of the bargain he struck with the Elder Gods when he'd realized the dreadful mistake he'd made and started working to fix that mistake (remember, Val was the one who summoned the Demon Lord in the first place), which was to return to Zakkar, take no aggressive actions towards any other kingdom for 1000 years to give the world time to recover, and never do something so stupid ever again.  Ayise's betrayal just made him worse than what he was at that time.

But now you know why he hated Ayise and the Elder Gods so much.  ;)

But they couldn't kill him, for obvious reasons.  Val was like a bomb...kill him, and he goes off.  The only thing they could do was put him in a box and bury him in the deepest hole they could find, which was more or less what they did.  They trapped his power within his body, and then turned it to stone.  His body was kept in the Tower in Dala Yar Arak, but the Breaking destroyed that Tower, and the ki'zadun stole it.

[Phantom]

When I said; "They didn't do it because they couldn't" - I was refearing to what I "thought" Rick meant when he said that Tarrin was on the god_plane and could be destroyed without endangering Sennadar. - Meaning they couldn't just "transport" Tarrin "up". which they couldn't,

As far as I can recall the gods who are created through the firestaff doesn't reside on the godsplane or "their own personal plane" where the gods can truely be killed.

If they die, they just die. Their soul has no place to go, it is just destroyed - something about the price for using the firestaff. - if Tarrin did exist on multiple planes, he wouldn't have to make a soul trap to be restored, would he?

Yup that's the Gest of it   as I understand it too



Phantom

[Phantom]

Well if this is so....I don't get it then....Tarrin destroyed the One's Icon and yet he's going to "finish" the job up there, in the one's home plane where he "truely" exist. Else he'll just make another icon when he's gained enough power to reopen the link to Pyrosia....if he's already perma dead, what's the point in going up there...

In my understanding and I could be wrong Fel would have to answer this.    
But visiting the God Plane to Finish it is the easiest way to Banish/remove the Demon Lord and all of the Minions summoned by him from Pyrosia.  
The One while still being a Powerful god has had some of his power removed but he was never as powerful as a Demon lord is.

Tarrin by Doing what he's doing in actualy hinging his bets.  
He removed the ones power from the mortal plane in Pyrosia so he can't realy effect anything that happens there any longer.  
Then he summoned the All and created a Weave like Sennadar to deny demons the power of their Magic there by leveling the playing field.
This however dose not effect Tarrins shadow (Demons Bane,) as it feeds off of the power used to create the demons mortal body when it was summoned to Pyrosia.
He Bridged the planes back to Sennadar to allow Niami to Establish the laws of magic again to deny demons access.
He knew he would die useing the All to do this hence the Steps he took with Dolanna (making her immune to his Lycanthropy and being able introducing his Were abilities into her there by increasing her Power level for using magic.  Alowing her to be able to handle the strain of controling the Weave if only for a short time.

he also took steps to alow himself to Vist and Exist in the God plane so he could find and destroy the one.

By doing so he's Stacking the deck against the Demon lord  
1. Deny them their magic.

2. Remove them from Pyrosia (Two ways both related to Tarrins Shadow  the shadow will kill any it touches and in so doing it grows stronger Up to being stronger then a demon lord and there by able to kill him.
the second is the demon lord has to remove his stronger demons from Pyrosia just to keep Tarrins shadow from gaining stregnth.

3. the first two weaken the demons left on Pyrosia helping Kang and company in their quest to rid it of them

4. Remove the one god destroy him in the God plane there by banishing the Demon lord and the minions summoned by him back to the 7 hells once and for all.

And from what I understood, a god could only truely be killed on his home turf (home plane). If you destroyed the Icon you just destroyed the gods connection to that particular plane/world/univers...but he would eventually be able to make another in a few millenia...

For god's created the normal way my understanding is they have to be killed in both planes. or maybe doing it this way weakens them in some small way  

It does cut them off from their Priests and followers to some extent when their Icon is removed.  

Some gods are tied to the faith of their followers this will weaken them over time as the followers and Priests lose faith in the God



Phantom

[Belgarion213]

If you destroy a gods Icon that god looses the connection he has with that particular plane. If its an elder god this has seriouse repocations such as their being no fire in the world or what not. However if its a younger god then that god could end up dying because there is no way that the faith from his/her worshipers can get to the god. Since a younger god exists because of that faith, this can cause trouble. However a younger god does have some addvantages in that he/she can have worshipers in multiple plains of reality.

If you kill a god in his home plain he is dead.

[Shadowhawk]

He was more than willing to adhere to his side of the bargain he struck with the Elder Gods when he'd realized the dreadful mistake he'd made and started working to fix that mistake (remember, Val was the one who summoned the Demon Lord in the first place) [...]

Unifying against Demon Lord (and Demon lord on magic-rich Sennadar has truly great power) was only sensible thing. If he didn't do this, Val risked destroying Sennadar, the very plane he existed. Val couldn't rule Demon infested Sennadar... ruling the wasteland?

The One thought (foolishly), that he could control Demon Lord, as he controled lesser demons, and strike him when not needed anymore. Stupid. It would/could get him truly killed. I guess that Tarrin would only destroy One icon if he didn't summoned Demon Lord.

[Phantom]

Unifying against Demon Lord (and Demon lord on magic-rich Sennadar has truly great power) was only sensible thing. If he didn't do this, Val risked destroying Sennadar, the very plane he existed. Val couldn't rule Demon infested Sennadar... ruling the wasteland?

How true

The One thought (foolishly), that he could control Demon Lord, as he controled lesser demons, and strike him when not needed anymore. Stupid. It would/could get him truly killed. I guess that Tarrin would only destroy One icon if he didn't summoned Demon Lord.

It would have been all Tarrin had to do as his power would have wained as his followers lost faith and started worshiping other Gods.   By the time he could have rebuilt his Icon he would have become a forgoten god. which would have served Tarrin's needs for retribution.

Remember when he used the Firestaff He became Tarrin, god of fire, god of duty, god of protection, defender of Sennadar itself, and his was the burning light of retribution

When the One summoned the Demon lord  the other aspects of Tarrin's divinity came into play Tarrin then saw it as his Duty to rid Pyrosia of the Demon Lord ...

If for no other reason then to Protect the people of Pyrosia.  
After all Tarrin is/was the God of Duty and Protection as well as the burning light of retribution even if the last was originaly aimed at Val it's still a part of who Tarrin is

You Don't F*ck with Tarrins Family or Friends and Live to tell the tale.
Even if you are a God



Phantom

[Phantom]

But now you know why he hated Ayise and the Elder Gods so much.

But they couldn't kill him, for obvious reasons. Val was like a bomb...kill him, and he goes off. The only thing they could do was put him in a box and bury him in the deepest hole they could find, which was more or less what they did. They trapped his power within his body, and then turned it to stone. His body was kept in the Tower in Dala Yar Arak, but the Breaking destroyed that Tower, and the ki'zadun stole it.

I keep thinking and thinking about your statement here and have a question.

Does that mean the ki'zadun were the ones that caused the Breaking ?  
There by allowing them to retrieve his Icon.  
If so I assume Val in some way Explained to his followers how to cause it ?


Phantom  

[Fel]

hehehe, someone finally asks.

Yes, the Ki'Zadun caused the Breaking.

Their attack on the Tower of Dala Yar Arak started the chain reaction, when they killed the Tower's sui'kun.

No, it wasn't intentional.  Yes, they meant to kill the sui'kun to stop him from disrupting their plan, but they had no idea that killing only one sui'kun could do what it did.  Their mistake was killing him when he was joined to the Conduit that ran through the Tower of Dala Yar Arak.  His death destroyed the Conduit, that fed directly back into the Weave, and it killed all the other sui'kun except Spyder.

Which tore the Weave, and caused the Breaking.