Earth Bond Chapter 17 - Discussion (Spoilers)

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GBLW
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Re: Earth Bond Chapter 17 - Discussion (Spoilers)

Post by GBLW »

Fel wrote: That's exactly what they're planning to do. So, that's a cookie for SYED.
:lol: :lol: :lol: That'll teach me to try to outguess the master of the twisted plot! I was looking for complex and convoluted, while he chose simple and direct! :wink:
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hoppy
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Re: Earth Bond Chapter 17 - Discussion (Spoilers)

Post by hoppy »

dellstart wrote:silly question.
If your not a recognized nation or entity and you start sinking ships or disabling them , isn't that piracy or terrorism ? I am looking at it from a legal , not moral stand point.Hence the rules of engagement might be different ,but what do I know. :?
No, all you have to do to be a legal military combatant is organize and refrain from acts against the laws of war. Let us not confuse this with the UN Law Of the Sea treaty which has more to do with international governing of the sea.
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Re: Earth Bond Chapter 17 - Discussion (Spoilers)

Post by ANTIcarrot »

hoppy wrote:No, all you have to do to be a legal military combatant is organize and refrain from acts against the laws of war. Let us not confuse this with the UN Law Of the Sea treaty which has more to do with international governing of the sea.
BUT... It might technically be considdered an 'act of war' and allow China to claim that the Dragons started it. Once that claim hits the news cycle it could cause problems for the dragons, and Americans, as nothing they could release would prove otherwise. The problem with being very good hackers, is that it's synonymous with being good forgers. In fact, the more realistic the 'fake chinese documents' are, the longer the dragons must have been working on it, which makes their attack on the chinese navy obviously premeditated...

Claiming a large part of the sea is also somewhat problematic. Dragon Island (we still don't have a name for that?!) can easily claim an Exclusive Economic Zone that far out, meaning no mining or fishing for anyone else, and they get to tax exchange of goods, but they can't block ships until they get within 12 nautical miles of their coast, and only then by insisting on complience with really picky regulations or something. Because the problem of being recognised by the UN as a nation, is that the rights you get come with responsabilities as well. And one of those is free passage for shipping, even inside the EEC or territorial waters.

A UN declaration on the equality of humans and dragons will probably pass without question, though the UN doesn't do anything quickly, but problems will start as soon as it's translated onto national law. At that point there are several ways it could be knocked down or delayed. The US government may in fact do this immediately, so they can fast track to the supreme court and a constitutional amendment. Other groups would also wish for such an amedment, though not in a way the Dragons or Walker would like.
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GBLW
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Re: Earth Bond Chapter 17 - Discussion (Spoilers)

Post by GBLW »

ANTIcarrot wrote:. . . Claiming a large part of the sea is also somewhat problematic . . .
Actually several countries around the world lay claim to portions of the continental shelf and the seas above them. In fact China and several South East Asian countries are disputing claims on just such oceanic territories at the present time. As well as that there are various claims by various countries about extended portions of the Arctic Ocean, not to mention the claims and counter claims being made by Great Britain and Argentina about the oil rights off Argentina and the Falkland Islands.
ANTIcarrot wrote:A UN declaration on the equality of humans and dragons will probably pass without question, though the UN doesn't do anything quickly . . .
If the UN does make such a declaration, China would probably Veto the motion - that alone would be an excuse for defensive action by the Dragons. Now I'm not a lawyer, so I can't say if such a defensive action would be legal under International Law, but ships do sink and they do lose their propulsion systems, so since the Water Dragons don't leave a sonar shadow and don't need to appear above water to take any defensive or offensive action, what proof would China have that they were even attacked ? ? ?
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Re: Earth Bond Chapter 17 - Discussion (Spoilers)

Post by ANTIcarrot »

GBLW wrote:Actually several countries around the world lay claim to portions of the continental shelf and the seas above them.
I think you are confusing the concepts of Territorial Waters and Exclusive Economic Zone. If the dragons simply want an EEC, fine. But they sem to want to control acces to the ocean itself within the EEC. That's simply not allowed. Principly because of all those other nations that want to do exactly that, and noone will be willing to set a precident. Even if the UN recognises their claim, they are required under the same treaty they are using to make the claim, to allow the passage of 'innocent commercial and military vessels'. Which includes Chinese warships 'on exercise' if the situation arises.
If the UN does make such a declaration, China would probably Veto the motion
China only gets veto power in the security council. In the general assembally a simple two-thirds majority for 'important questions' is all that's required.
that alone would be an excuse for defensive action by the Dragons.
If China wanted to veto they'd use a patsy. And they may not need to do that. Giving human rights to another species is going to create all sorts of problems. I can think of multiple nations that might object to 'lizards being given special treatment over real human beings'. Especially in the developing world.

Even if China did this, it would like like simply tit for tat diplomatic wrangling over the Dragon's refusing to talk to them. And again, other nations would have some sympathy. You've got to realise that the Hunters are probably known to many other agencies, and they've just dissapeared for a few months at the same time the Dragons have appeared. There will be guesses as to what happened to them. Many of those guesses will resolve around America's relationship with the Dragons, and to what extent the US government is lying about it. So a 'No' vote wouldn't simply be a green light to attack China.
but ships do sink and they do lose their propulsion systems, so since the Water Dragons don't leave a sonar shadow and don't need to appear above water to take any defensive or offensive action, what proof would China have that they were even attacked ? ? ?
You're obviously not a statistician either. 20 ships don't mysterious suffer the same fault within minutes of each other without intelligent action. China almost certainly also has the ability to track 'dead space' in the ocean, which is what 100% stealth actually looks like on modern sonar. Given the nature of the damage there woudl be a strong prima facie case that only dragons could have done this. The dragons would either admit it (an act of war) or refuse to answer to worthless human organisations (which could get them thrown out of the UN) or coming up with some kind of 'obviously fabricated' story about China have an ancient library of secret magic which humans can't be trusted with, and becoming jealous of the translation programme which was only supplied to the americans in secret... (Whoops! Were we not supposed to mention those two things?)

And it's a real pity about that first one. :roll: It would have been awesome if Walker had turned around and said, "Gold? What the hell would we want that useless crap for?! We've a thousand tons of the bloody stuff at Fort Knox and it costs more to look after it each year that it's actually worth. If you want something useless from us pony up and offer us something useful in return!" :mrgreen:
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Re: Earth Bond Chapter 17 - Discussion (Spoilers)

Post by GBLW »

ANTIcarrot wrote:You're obviously not a statistician either. 20 ships don't mysterious suffer the same fault within minutes of each other without intelligent action.
Nope, I'm just an old retired engineer, however I do know a 'little' about ship design and just how easy it is to disable a vessel.
Besides, why in the world would you attack twenty ships at once? It is far more disconcerting to have one or two ships fall out of formation every few hours - that would be viewed as a reliability problem and the Chinese would have to have escort vessels standing by to assist those ships back to port. All the Water Dragons would need to do is vary their technique of attack slightly each time, after all once the flotilla was underway they have a whole ocean to cross.

But rather than argue about that or anything else, I'd rather wait until the story is written, then I can read about the method used in this fictional situation, not my daydreams.
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