Earth Bond Chapter 16 - Discussion (Spoilers)

[GBLW]

You know, if I were a Congressman, I'd be raising questions about the actions being taken by the Executive branch without consultation with Congress. At a minimum, Congress should be receiving regular briefings, so they have a basis for determining what actions Congress should take.

Now that's a valid question, because 'the common Congress critter' is quite resistant to 'gag orders' of any kind.
Another question is how are the NOAA Weather feeds being blocked, since as far as I understand, they are another 'cold' system? Of course those feeds are then rebroadcast to the public on a 'hot' system, but that broadcast is strictly 'one way' - as an open information feed.
However in both cases I guess 'Poetic License' could come into effect.

[expedient]

Another question is how are the NOAA Weather feeds being blocked

By resolution? I've no idea how sharp their sensors are but it might be difficult to see anything useful with 8-9 dedicated pixels in the middle of the Pacific. In any case ANTIcarrot already mentioned some secondary effects the island would cause even before the magic failed.

[GBLW]

Another question is how are the NOAA Weather feeds being blocked

By resolution? I've no idea how sharp their sensors are but it might be difficult to see anything useful with 8-9 dedicated pixels in the middle of the Pacific. In any case ANTIcarrot already mentioned some secondary effects the island would cause even before the magic failed.

Exactly, because the submerged portion of an exposed landmass has an exponential effect on aquatic currents and exposed ground masses influence wind and cloud patterns to some degree. Both of those effects show up on NOAA broadcasts and those effects are far more visible than the minute detail a tiny island would have as seen from space.

[Mad Monk]

The effects of the island on the atmosphere can cover hundreds of miles. Look at the "Cloud Street" shown coming from Nauru

http://www.pnl.gov/science/highlights/h ... sp?id=1097

Even more stunning are the street vortices on this site:

http://www.weathervortex.com/wakes.htm

Enjoy!

[expedient]

Yes, but have the weather and ocean patterns changed since the protection magic has failed.

If the patterns look the same but the images appear to show a small island rather than say perhaps a series of small partially submerged mountain/volcano peaks then it might take some time to notice. After all there would be almost no difference in in wide area effects before and after.

The US Navy already knows where the island is. Presumably merchant shipping never frequents these waters either due to the magic dissuading them or perceived navigation issues of suspected underwater volcanoes.

In any case with thousands of witnesses having seen the fire dragons arrive from the south of Hawaii most foreign governments would be able to take a good guess at where to look for the dragon's home. Getting there is a different matter without having a good understanding of the capabilities and intent of the dragons against any who seek them out.

[SYED]

The world will watch the FD closely when they leave. Sats all over the world are being used to keep an eye on them. So when thry reach the island they will disappear but people will know where to go.

At some point ED will build defences for the island some really big guns, ranges of around 70 miles. If they can keep the big ships at bay, Wd can deal with smaller ones.

[Weresmilodon]

The world will watch the FD closely when they leave. Sats all over the world are being used to keep an eye on them. So when thry reach the island they will disappear but people will know where to go.

Except the program was already updated to hide dragon-shapes, as well as the island.

[SYED]

WOnt the nations notice if they cant see the dragons on the vulcano with their spy sats?

SO they will send ships, planes or drones to keep an eye on them.

It is thought that to restore the magics that hid the Island, it would take 2 weeks correct? SO the i wonder if the ED can force the dragons to force the CD into accepting, is they tell them of a fleet coming.

[ANTIcarrot]

Actually folks the point is - like it or not - Fel is writing FICTION.

Kel is fictional. But a reader who defends Kel's racist attitudes because they honestly think that racism is sometimes justifiably, or because they lack the life experience to recognise prejudice when it is shoved in their face, is NOT fictional. We seem to have a few readers on the board who think like this. Such people worry me. Do I really need to explain why?

[ANTIcarrot]

WOnt the nations notice if they cant see the dragons on the vulcano with their spy sats?

Technically other nations should have noticed a lot of things. No doubt the EDs put in an rule-exception to slow down discovery of their sabotage for as long as possible. I'm sure Fel will tell us all about it in the next chapter.

It is characteristic of Mr Galloway to avoid the complications of extended international politics. In his past stories other nations have either been ignored completely, or they politely lined up to present their problems one after another, like henchmen attacking the hero in single file. Though who knows? Maybe we'll get lucky this time.

[GBLW]

Actually folks the point is - like it or not - Fel is writing FICTION.

Kel is fictional. But a reader who defends Kel's racist attitudes because they honestly think that racism is sometimes justifiably, or because they lack the life experience to recognise prejudice when it is shoved in their face, is NOT fictional. We seem to have a few readers on the board who think like this. Such people worry me. Do I really need to explain why?

Nope, you needn't explain, but an author often sets the background of a story against a modified real world scene, thus what happens in reality does not necessarily mesh with fictional reality.
In Kel's world, his actions were justified to him, if only because he was acting in the interests of a biased and racist society, but then he happens to be a member of that society. I'm making no attempt to justify his actions in regard to my reality because I KNOW that he is fictional character, living in a fictional world. I accept his justifications even if I find them abhorrent to my personal standards.

[hoppy]

Actually folks the point is - like it or not - Fel is writing FICTION.

Kel is fictional. But a reader who defends Kel's racist attitudes because they honestly think that racism is sometimes justifiably, or because they lack the life experience to recognise prejudice when it is shoved in their face, is NOT fictional. We seem to have a few readers on the board who think like this. Such people worry me. Do I really need to explain why?

I went back and found were you introduced this idea.

Now I can't figure out what side your taking here, Kell was acting as an agent of his government and they were acting as agents of their government.

Do you watch Game of Thrones? You remember all the times when good people are killed by evil people, not in self defense, but because killing 'people less important than themselves' was more convenient than having their dirty little secrets exposed? That's Kell that is. That's his society. And I don't care who authorised it. 'I was just following orders' is not a defence used by reasonable people.

In something like Fatherland, you can easily get away with something like this on chapter one, but by chapter 16 we're seeing the *real* Kell. The person who got all torn emotionally up over killing a dragon in self defense, but remembers killing four humans in cold blood as merely an unpleasent task, like taking the trash out.

What is the purpose of the Department?

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To protect the dragons society.

Why did Kel kill the hackers?

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To safeguard the Department's mission. I kind of read into this that they tried to dissuade them first. I don't remember being told much about how he felt about this action.so maybe you did some reading in of your own.

How and were did he kill the Air Dragon councilor?

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He tricked them into attacking him so he could justifiably kill them in the middle of a council session.

What created the council?

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The Compact, you know the basis for interdragon society on the island.

What happened because Kel killed the Air Dragon councilor ?

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A brake-down of dragon society. And, what was the purpose of the department again?

Now just in case You can't figure out from that.

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He feels guilt by association. Then there's how killing the Air Dragon councilor was an emotional metaphor for killing interdragon society. Even though he knows it really wasn't his fault; He feels like it is. Fel almost tailor made the plot for him to feel that way! This was something I got the first I read it!

[commandert]

[quote="SYED"]WOnt the nations notice if they cant see the dragons on the vulcano with their spy sats?

SO they will send ships, planes or drones to keep an eye on them.

It is thought that to restore the magics that hid the Island, it would take 2 weeks correct? SO the i wonder if the ED can force the dragons to force the CD into accepting, is they tell them of a fleet coming.[/quote]

I thought the most realistic response would have been to scour the satellites to find the virus. From my experience it is FAR easier to debug a system that has a known problem then to anticipate where a vulnerability could arise. Even if the ED could infect the system again, all it takes is for the satellite to be working for a few minutes during which it could spot the island.

[ANTIcarrot]

Why did Kel kill the hackers? To safeguard the Department's mission (to potect Dragon society). I kind of read into this that they tried to dissuade them first. I don't remember being told much about how he felt about this action.so maybe you did some reading in of your own.

Simple question: If the hackers had broken through the firewall and found a set of highly secure but otherwise rather ordinary internet terminals on the other side, how would this have threatened Dragon Society? It would have been childishly simple to ensure nothing important or inciminating was on a computer connected to the internet. Though it would have been inconvenient. The hackers were killed because the Department was lazy, and murder was simply easier than instigating proper computer security. This is not a reasonable act committed by reasonable people - and it's extremely worrying that you think it is. The masquerade hardly justifies it either. (Not that a firewall breach would even mean a masquerade violation.) It is always easier for a parasite to steal and cause harm when the host doesn't know it's there. That doesn't make the parasite's actions moral.

Kell feels guilt by association. Then there's how killing the Air Dragon councilor was an emotional metaphor for killing interdragon society. Even though he knows it really wasn't his fault; He feels like it is. Fel almost tailor made the plot for him to feel that way! This was something I got the first I read it!

I think you stopped reading too quickly.

“I…I don’t know. No. Yes. It’s all so confusing,” he blurted. “The humans expose me, reveal the dragons to the humans, and the chromatics begin a plot to destroy the department, dismantle everything we’ve built over the years,” he said, blurting it out, almost as if he needed absolution from someone. “Then I had to kill Ivaiya, even though I was the one that provoked her on purpose, because I had to. And when she was laying there with my spikes in her back, all I could do was look at her and feel glad she was dead,” he said, looking down. “She hated us earth dragons so much that she helped the chromatics bring down everything we’ve built, but when I killed her and felt nothing for it, I became no better than her. I’ve always hated the others because they hate us…and that’s wrong,” he said in a low voice. “But I can’t help it. I shouldn’t hate them just because they hate me, I should listen to my sire and mother, but…I just can’t,” he whispered. “It wasn’t wrong to kill her, but it was wrong to feel nothing over it.”

Kell says he doesn't feel guilty, but he's acting like it. Nor am I so certain that it's so easy to seperate his feelings about 'failing to evade notice' and his feelings about killing Ivaiya. If you feel that feeling nothing is wrong - then by definition you are feeling something. He also goes on about not wanting to go through with the plan. (And I'm sure there's something about Shankers require a dragon violating their personal integrity out of duty, or some such, but I can't find it right now.) Whatever he thinks, and wants to claim, when he talks about Ivaiya, he acts guilty.

Fel has said he intended a stark reaction when he casually dropped the murders in the middle of a paragraph. He intended a contrast between Kell's earlier angsting and the way he remembered doing wetwork in China. It's possible that he also chose to make the victims 'chinese' and 'hackers' as opposed to, say, 'americans' and 'government employees' or 'parents'. I wonder if you'd be so willing to forgive the dragons then?

This story is in part about Racism.

[Mistra]

like most of fel's stories, racism is a subplot, there's absolutely no need to put the word in bold, also, in this case, it doesn't apply.

Killing the chinese hackers is specieism at best, which, from a biological perspective is completely different. You could almost compare it to putting down a dog that attacked a child. To dragons humans are no more then pets. Is this right? No, obviously not, but that does not make kell a morally bankrupt monster.

don't apply human morals to dragons
Kell is a dragon, he isn't people, all dragons could very well be psychopathic compared to the average human, they sure seem to have the arrogance and detached emotions. That doesn't make them evil. And if it does i'd like to come live in your happy little black and white world, it seems quite lovely there.
(might i add that american law allows you to shoot someone on your property in self defense, an argument could be made that, if hackers found proof for the presence of dragons any number of negative situations could arise for the entire dragon population.)

The fact that the hacker is chinese is irrelevant, the fact is that china is a highly competitive nation that is economically at odds with the nation the author lives in. It wouldn't matter to me if it were a belgian software engineer or a brazillian script kiddie, his intellect is the part that's dangerous, not his skin color.

also, if a hacker actually penetrated their security, he'd find a custom os, with a completely unknown language operating on highly advanced unknown hardware, including displaydrivers for a thermal screen and draconic-english translation software, in the internet search history of those machines that hacker would find searches for information on dragons and magic but ignoring fantasy sites (even when carefully whiped there's always a bit of cache while you're browsing). And those are just the dragon internet search machines.


The earth bond universe does seem to have 3 possible conclusions.
*The dragons take what they want and give what they want... behaving somewhat like royalty.
*They set up trade relations and everyone sticks to some ground rules (eg, dragons acknowledging human rights, the us and china doing the same thing and humanity acknowledges draconic rights [privacy seems an important one here])
*open war