Earth Bond Chapter 16 - Discussion (Spoilers)

[Greymist]

Not a cat person Zor?

[Rakkel]

Kell was the drake that usually went to China because he spoke Mandarin, and on more than one occasion, he’d been sent there to eliminate a hacker that was just too good. He’d been dispatched to China to kill a hacker four separate times, and while he’d found it very distasteful, the protection of the island trumped his personal feelings.

And Kell just sailed right past the Moral Event Horizon. Of course, he's been tending that way for a while as we learn more and more of his backstory. And why, exactly, are four brutal and unjustifable murders are just dumped in the middle of a paragraph? So... What is the take home message here? Hackers are disposable? Men are disposable? Slanty eyed foreigners are disposable?

This is all a basic result of a secret/isolationist society-there must be someone to ensure the secret . As such, the "murders" can be seen as the same thing as soldiers in war-both sides doing their duty, but with death being the end result. It is not pretty, but it is a necessary facet of keeping the existence of dragons secret from the world. It adds to Kell's character by showing that he is NOT above doing the necessary things to get the job done, much like Tarrin. It both makes Kell more believable as a character (not just a goody two shoes superhacker, if there is such a thing ) As for a message, It seems obvious and best said by George Orwell, "We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm." Kell is one of those "rough men."

“It’s not magic, that’s why they fear it,” Kell replied.

Plus the whole 'becoming dependent on others via the collapse of a key sector of your domestic industry and permanant and possibly irreversable loss of strategic skills is a bad idea' thing.
Hmm. I'm confused. Does pointing that out count as killing cat girls or not?

It would be a destroy a key component of the industry IF the technology could replicate some of the most advanced magic: When you can use technology to create the scions, hider amulets, and island hiding shield, you will have a point. Not to mention the defense magic that is shown in the libraries, and the fact that most dragons use other forms of magic that are at the current time not replicable by technology, such as the water movement and anti-magic. Also, magic has a transportablilty that is not easily achieved by technology-any dragon that has the skills can use the magic anywhere that there is enough magic-unlike technology which has physical components to carry around and is generally set it what those components can accomplish. As such I do not see technology threatening magic as a total industry.

“But it’s not what we know, it’s what they think,” Kell pointed out to her. “And the Chinese are paranoid when it comes to perceived threats to their emerging dominance.

Or the flip side of the coin, America is paranoid about any threat to their ability to swagger around and do whatever the hell they like to anyone. Specifically they're in psychotic denial about the inescapable fact that they're a rich and fat 4% of the global population, and they will never be able to keep their edge forever, especially against a bigger and bigger slice of the world that can outnumber, outbuy, and out spend them.

The rest of the world is not stupid. America has shown complete contempt for every other nation on the planet. On this occasion, the rest of the world will almost certainly side with China.

It is an aspect to consider, but remember it is the dragons who are wanting to limit the contact. Although the world may see the Americans as trying to limit contact (and rightfully so) the dragons are the ones who have the final say, and pissing off the dragons by coming to the island uninvited would definitely seem counter-intuitive. If America pointed out that, showed dragons were not willing to open themselves to the world, and at least gave the other countries press access (at least as much as the US press is given) I could conceivably buy the greater majority of countries at least holding off for a little, especially if they were given a timetable for the dragons appearing in the UN. The further any date is though, the more pressure I could see for access. The most interesting "country" to look at would be the Vatican, and if they were still going to continue the crusade against the dragons .

[expedient]

The most interesting "country" to look at would be the Vatican, and if they were still going to continue the crusade against the dragons .

Or a country like Iran, already fearful of American "interference" now presented with a new type of threat: magical infiltrators, operatives, saboteurs. Unlike China they're not on a near equal footing but probably do likely share genuine historical references to dragons and uses of magic.

[ANTIcarrot]

This is all a basic result of a secret/isolationist society-there must be someone to ensure the secret .

Key difference is that thee and me (or rather everyone and me it seems ) is that we are disagreeing on the term 'necessary'. Spot the difference:
*It is sometimes necessary to kill in self defense; or you yourself might die.
*It is sometimes necessary to hang uppity niggers; otherwise they might start getting ideas.

Kell is a racist (speciesist technically, but that's a mouthful) and when he thinks it's justified, he's a murderous racist too. People like that pop up on the news services fairly reguarly. When was the last time you heard that phrase in a positive context? I can't help but see him as being much closer to the second in attitude than the first.

This is basically Warhammer 40,000 - but with dragons and set a few years in the future. There are no good guys here.

Which is why 40 days later I'm still rooting for North Korea. 아래 사악한 드래곤 마귀와!

It is an aspect to consider, but remember it is the dragons who are wanting to limit the contact.

My Nation Doth Protest Too Much!
For one thing, America is a global super power. They can dictate terms anytime they want to. By not doing so they are merely loudly proclaiming how much they don't want to do so. They are also doing the Dragons no favours by letting them think they are in control. See 3.

For another, how the hell would the dragons know? And I believe they said that they didn't particularly care what the humans did with the books they were given, as long as they didn't steel them from the rightful owners.

For a third, the dragons have comited multiple acts of war. Sooner or later they will get over confident (if they haven't already) and will get caught (if they haven't already). For some nations it is (or soon will be) not a question of "Why don't you you want to talk to us?" but rather "Why the #### shouldn't we bomb you back to the stone age?!" The dragons talk a good game, but can the air dragons stop a ballistic missile (DF-21D or similar) if they can only see is coming 30 seconds before impact? See 1.

[SYED]

Now that magic and dragons are known to the world, every on will want in on it, and want magicians for themselves.

In the dragons own beliefs, human magicians are humans born with dragon souls, as there were no dragon bodies available. The more wizards in the world, means more humans linked to them and more chance of acceptance. The more wizards using magic, the more humanity will be accepting of it, and so less likely to attack the dragons.
There are a few different ways to encourage and locate wizards. Create crystals that glow when touched or held by a human with magical talent. It would simply be a way to test many as possible.
If they get official recognized as a nation of the world, dragons can simply say that the use of magic makes a human a citizen of their land. Similar to how to be a citizen of Atlantis, you had to be a magician. It is not so strange an approach, Germany determines citizen ship by bloodline. Many people will be eager to get dragon citizenship, as it would mean they have magical talent, and every developed country in the world will want them to immigrate.
There is always the embassy route but that would require allot of resources and time.
The best way to locate wizards is allow humans access to the scion at least partially. If they linked the top twenty airports in the world, that would be thousands of people through the system every day. The airports would have dealt with the security issues, so it becomes a simple logistic issuer for them to deal with. It would also help to get people less afraid of dragons. It would be hard to be afraid of dragons, when the only direct contact most people have of them, is as baggage handlers, airport security and scion attendants.
Offer scholarships to any one wanting to do any further education, the only necessity is to have the gift. They might have to take a minor education in magic, but at their own pace. Such a plan would be dependent on their ability to accumulate money from dragon tech trading.
They could also create a boarding school or summer camp, for children all around the world to come learn.
They could adopt or foster orphan children around the world, as part of their scholarship program. If given a choice would a child live in some orphanage or group home, or live on an island filled with dragons and magic. They would get a chance to learn magic, which would lead to them being hired by most countries all over the world for big salaries.
They could create an online embassy, so those with question can get answers. Help acclimatization humans to their new neighbors.

Do we know if having magic is passed on children?

CD are all scholar wizards, working on their craft. We know from the descriptions they involve alot of learning of lore that were the basics of our sciences, I wonder if the advances humans have made in sciences, would affect magic. We know the CD have hidden the fullest extent of technology from the other dragons. The CD sages are solely interested in magic, so would they be interested in new lore? It could actually lead to a huge source of income. Universities around the world will want access to both Dragons and Magic, they would compete and fight each other for the chance to be the first or most ground breaking.

If the dragon council meets with out the AD lackey and CD member, could they not pass the new law them selves? They would have the 7 of the 9 votes on their side.

ED can not be harmed by something from the earth, so radiation wont harm them, but what about other toxic material. Would it simply be accumulated in their BW? Could the materials then be recycled? So buy cheap, then sell when shaped and processed.

I would have thought at the first mention of technomancy, this forum would be flooded with ideas.
I believe that magical jet packs are now possible. Enchant a tail spike crystal to create a float effect, the Jet pack does not need so much force to achieve flight. Or the spike could just negate mass, we know that is possible? I wonder if floating and mass negation magic could allow for cheaper transport of good in to orbit.
We know that lightning can be created, so that is DC, so good chance of magical batteries. Imagine a battery that lasts for a full year of constant use, it would make the battery companies tremble. THe only reason why there are not more electric cars is the worry of charge. SAy a battery that never needs charging just replacement, would be a big incentive.
I wonder if magical elements and alloys would improve our material sciences.

[Belgarion213]

Yeah not really sure how I feel about the china thing. I mean yeah threatening to start a war is a bit dickish but when it comes in retaliation to the apparent threat to instantly and as far as they can work out permanently lower themselves on the pecking order of nations I can kind of see China's point. I kind of feel the dragon's (AND THE US don't forget), are just being self righteous assholes.

Also I to think that the going to china to kill the four hackers was a bit much to dump in the middle of the paragraph. Personally I think its not so much that kell is a racist asshole as it was presented very poorly. The revelation should have been spread around so we got some context about WHY this was necessary (at least from the Dragon's viewpoint), and how Kell dealt with it. Because It is coming across a bit much like WH40k in that there are no good guys. No wait, fundamental corruption problems and human rights violations aside, China is acting very reasonable about this. There is a new species on the planet, or returned and for some reason the second most powerful nation on the planet, is not being allowed to go talk to them to even say Hi, or even just get a look at them. More the dragon's hacking of Google's satellites to hide the ocean even short term probably came across to China as a US attempt to limit knowledge as well.

China would be pissed. Considering how much US debt they hold.... Yeah, the US is doing the dragon's, and themselves, no favors here. I'm kind of waiting for the US strategy to 'cut china of at the knee's by telling the rest of the world why they are doing this to backfire heavily. That would be hilarious.

[afrigeek]

On the other hand, the dragons are sentient creatures with minds of their own. So the whole China threat is rather silly. The USA is not restricting the dragons. The dragons would talk to the Chinese if they wanted to. Clearly the Chinese seem to be focussing on the wrong people here. Instead of screaming about being restricted access, perhaps they need to just make their desire to speak to the dragons known to the dragons themselves and let them decide whether or not they want to talk to them.

[expedient]

It's an unfortunate fact that intelligence operatives are known to steal, sabotage, succor sedition, spy, conceal and assassinate people who may pose a direct or tangential threat to their home nation. The field agents are intelligence operatives. They do very shady and moralistically indefensible things.

What America (USA) does on both a national or individual citizen basis and what it claims to represent are often at great odds with each other. Other nations also fall into this trap. It is the nature of any large body of individuals to not live up to the stated aims of the collective. [See corporations for other examples.]

Kell believes that the earth dragons are superior to the other dragons due to their work ethic and contributions to the island. He believes that dragons are superior to humans because on an individual basis dragons are more intelligent and more considered.

Most Americans seem to believe that the USA is the greatest nation on the planet. [Whatever that means.] That the Chinese (and certain other nationalities) are brainwashed[1] and don't have the freedoms that American democracy offers.

These are both simplistic ways of understanding and dealing with the world at large.

The earth dragons have killed individual computer hackers who have posed a threat to the flaws within their own intellectually superior deployments of technology connected to the internet. All in the name of protecting their ultimate secret: the existence of dragons.

Well, that secret is out. Further isolation can only increase fear and paranoia. [Unless they can pull a magic secret maker out of a hat.]

Meeting with a Chinese delegation would be a sensible first step in the direction of assurances of non-aggression. Followed by a time table detailing further confabs with UN representatives (or similar).

A quick conversation with the Chinese stating their belief it will take decades before any human receiving training in magic could use it to any useful effect might help relieve some of the immediate pressure. [No matter how wrong the dragons probably are in their assessment.]

The dragons look to be out of their political depth and not yet aware of the danger of the riptide.

[1] On a note of hypocrisy: It is one thing for an adult to choose to take up the flag of his or her nation and represent its people and interests but I find it utterly repugnant that children are expected to swear allegiance to a [US] flag every morning when they no real understanding of what history or future intent it may signify. I see the long shadows of 1930s nationalism and colonial self-interest in such indoctrinations.

[hoppy]

It's an unfortunate fact that intelligence operatives are known to steal, sabotage, succor sedition, spy, conceal and assassinate people who may pose a direct or tangential threat to their home nation. The field agents are intelligence operatives. They do very shady and moralistically indefensible things.

What America (USA) does on both a national or individual citizen basis and what it claims to represent are often at great odds with each other. Other nations also fall into this trap. It is the nature of any large body of individuals to not live up to the stated aims of the collective. [See corporations for other examples.]

I like to think the USA comes closer than most others.

Kell believes that the earth dragons are superior to the other dragons due to their work ethic and contributions to the island. He believes that dragons are superior to humans because on an individual basis dragons are more intelligent and more considered.

I thought it was more a case of loyalty rather than prejudice.

Most Americans seem to believe that the USA is the greatest nation on the planet. [Whatever that means.] That the Chinese (and certain other nationalities) are brainwashed[1] and don't have the freedoms that American democracy offers.

I think recent events with The Chinese dissident, how army is used to quell uprisings on a yearly basis, and Tibet pretty much prove the part about freedoms for China.

These are both simplistic ways of understanding and dealing with the world at large.

The earth dragons have killed individual computer hackers who have posed a threat to the flaws within their own intellectually superior deployments of technology connected to the internet. All in the name of protecting their ultimate secret: the existence of dragons.

Well, that secret is out. Further isolation can only increase fear and paranoia. [Unless they can pull a magic secret maker out of a hat.]

Meeting with a Chinese delegation would be a sensible first step in the direction of assurances of non-aggression. Followed by a time table detailing further confabs with UN representatives (or similar).

A quick conversation with the Chinese stating their belief it will take decades before any human receiving training in magic could use it to any useful effect might help relieve some of the immediate pressure. [No matter how wrong the dragons probably are in their assessment.]

The dragons look to be out of their political depth and not yet aware of the danger of the riptide.

[1] On a note of hypocrisy: It is one thing for an adult to choose to take up the flag of his or her nation and represent its people and interests but I find it utterly repugnant that children are expected to swear allegiance to a [US] flag every morning when they no real understanding of what history or future intent it may signify. I see the long shadows of 1930s nationalism and colonial self-interest in such indoctrinations.

[expedient]

This next line was key:

These are both simplistic ways of understanding and dealing with the world at large.

I think recent events with The Chinese dissident, how army is used to quell uprisings on a yearly basis, and Tibet pretty much prove the part about freedoms for China.

Fortunately it is becoming more rare in the USA to use these sorts of tactics but the army has been used to quell uprisings from civil rights campaigners, native american tribe protesters and factory workers all in living memory. With deaths occurring amongst the unarmed civilians. As for invading foreign sovereignty for national self interest, well America is not innocent there either.

It's not that these accusations are baseless if you observe things from certain perspectives, just that this is a very limited way of attempting to understand the complex actions of many individuals.

The point though was not to attack any nation. All large bodies of individuals show these traits.

I don't want to go too far off topic. The fact that there are inconsistencies between the dragons stated intent and their actions is a strength and credit to Fel for not making homogenous political blocks which don't represent reality.

[ANTIcarrot]

I thought it was more a case of loyalty rather than prejudice.

Same difference.
The key concept of racism, sexism, and any kind of prejuside is the double standard. Kell and the other dragons have shown this repeatedly as they hold their own race to different standards to other dragons, all dragons to humans, and the 'most earth dragon like' humans (the hunters) to all other humans. The last one being a gold plate standard for racism.

We're told the the EDs admire humans, but nothing about respecting them. Humans admire wolves and cheetahs. But we don't respect them or consider it murder to kill one. Actions speak louder than words...

[GBLW]

Actually folks the point is - like it or not - Fel is writing FICTION.

The fact that he has engaged your attention to the point that you are arguing over the characteristics of the various characters in his story is an admission by you that he has engaged your imagination. In other words he has done a very good job of drawing you into the scenario he has created. Whether his characters are admirable or not is Fel's decision, not ours and he will portray them in any way he wishes. They do not have to suit your personal view of reality, philosophy or morality since they are fictional characters in a fictional situation.

In other words he has done what any decent writer tries to do, he has entertained you - or at least he has entertained me and as a reader that's all I can ask.

KP

[SYED]

Dragons are a big factor in asian mythology, china could be very worried about just what effect they could have on them? WHo would you listern to, the legends of your people come to life, or some politician say the same old thing? It is not some outsider, but a corner stone of their cultural heritage. In fact if a politician found that they have magic, their careers will rocket, as the public would see him as a child of the dragon.

Heat control is always a big issue, can magic transform, dissipate or manipulate heat generated by technology or processes?

THey are stuck with the fact magic wont be possible without talismans. If the dragon language is so special, burned on to pages, the only way to express the true soul of magic, could it be detectable by magic as a form of magic. The distance issue may still be a problem, but I wonder with multiple clear spike tail foci could it be solved. Make a search for all magical traces all over the world.
What if the Chinese collection only got found as the protections keeping them safe failed due to lack of magic? We already know that similar protections for libraries are failing or failed.

All those hacking and espionage that the agents carried out, can America or CHina prove any of them. They know who did it, but can they make a case. In the intelligence community, you know that a person has done something but you cant official state that or act on it. Would anyone publicly admit that another group could stroll into their systems at will.

[kd7mvs]

You know, if I were a Congressman, I'd be raising questions about the actions being taken by the Executive branch without consultation with Congress. At a minimum, Congress should be receiving regular briefings, so they have a basis for determining what actions Congress should take.

[SYED]

We will eventually see the religiously inclined or backed politicians start off a fire storm to deal with dragons.