Earth Bond, chapter 6 discussion

Discussions all around the Earth Bond/Kell the dragon story.

Moderator: Sennadar Moderators

Locked
User avatar
ANTIcarrot
Sui'Kun
Posts: 444
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2005 12:19 pm
Location: Stevenage, UK
Contact:

Earth Bond, chapter 6 discussion

Post by ANTIcarrot »

Oh dear. Oh dear. I go away for a few months and what do I find when I come back? I haven't come across so much xenophilic clopping since I read this delightful piece of pornography. :roll:

A few minor errors:

USN carriers can do 30 knots if they're in a hurry, and slightly more if they're really in a hurry. Not 15 knots. Wings and muscle power are very unlikely to propel a dragon at 50 knots (15knots is already faster than sharks or dolphins) nor would the dragon have the energy reserves to maintain it for long if they could. (Magic could of course.) Naval sonar techs keep a close watch on whales, and would keep a very close watch on whales coming close to a carrier group. Not only can colisions cause damage to the ships, they can more importantly do damage to the reputation of the navy. (Wildlife is also interesting on long boring watches.) They would very slightly alter course to avoid conflict, and really sit up and pay attention when the whales moved to track them. The pentagon would be well aware that the default ship based USMC detachments would be ill equiped to deal with dragons, and would almost certainly have issued heavy weapons, like Carl Gustavs or Javalins, along with the extra Hawkeyes. And then there's this:
The other one turned and fled, and the one on the deck scrabbled backwards on his feet and elbows, then turn, roll to his feet, and run screaming. Kell sighed. Humans.
Did the humans in question also grab the hem of their petticoats and cry out for mommy and daddy? :evil: I know you don't particularly like humans as characters, Fel, but this whole section is downright disrespectful for serving men and women in uniform.
I is an certified nut
User avatar
Hearly
Speed Racer!
Posts: 1077
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2004 5:06 am

Re: Earth Bond, chapter 6 discussion

Post by Hearly »

ANTIcarrot wrote:Oh dear. Oh dear. I go away for a few months and what do I find when I come back? I haven't come across so much xenophilic clopping since I read this delightful piece of pornography. :roll:

A few minor errors:

USN carriers can do 30 knots if they're in a hurry, and slightly more if they're really in a hurry. Not 15 knots. Wings and muscle power are very unlikely to propel a dragon at 50 knots (15knots is already faster than sharks or dolphins) nor would the dragon have the energy reserves to maintain it for long if they could. (Magic could of course.) Naval sonar techs keep a close watch on whales, and would keep a very close watch on whales coming close to a carrier group. Not only can colisions cause damage to the ships, they can more importantly do damage to the reputation of the navy. (Wildlife is also interesting on long boring watches.) They would very slightly alter course to avoid conflict, and really sit up and pay attention when the whales moved to track them. The pentagon would be well aware that the default ship based USMC detachments would be ill equiped to deal with dragons, and would almost certainly have issued heavy weapons, like Carl Gustavs or Javalins, along with the extra Hawkeyes. And then there's this:
The other one turned and fled, and the one on the deck scrabbled backwards on his feet and elbows, then turn, roll to his feet, and run screaming. Kell sighed. Humans.
Did the humans in question also grab the hem of their petticoats and cry out for mommy and daddy? :evil: I know you don't particularly like humans as characters, Fel, but this whole section is downright disrespectful for serving men and women in uniform.

No clue on the Knots, etc, but honestly I don't think Fel meant to be disrespectful of Military people, In my opinion, if a mythical creature should appear in front of me, I'd freak out too...
User avatar
Lochar
Leaders of the Off-Topic
Posts: 1478
Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2003 4:18 pm
Location: The center of American corruption.
Contact:

Re: Earth Bond, chapter 6 discussion

Post by Lochar »

Military people are very specifically trained that when the fight/flight response kicks in, they choose fight. I understand the 'it's bigger than me, holy fuck' attitude, but running screaming is a little much for military people.

Unless it was an fresh officer. I could understand that.
Ignorance is bliss, knowledge is power. Are the powerful very unhappy?

Support my brother.
http://www.justiceformichael.com
User avatar
Bigwind
Initiate
Posts: 45
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2008 12:57 am

Re: Earth Bond, chapter 6 discussion

Post by Bigwind »

That's strange, I was under the impression that this is meant to be a fantasy story. I mean, with dragons and things, it would be a very strange story if it was meant to be real. So, if a US naval officer runs off screaming in a FANTASY story, surely it should have absolutely no effect on people's ideas of what a REAL US naval officer would do. Anyone who has difficulty in separating fantasy from reality ought to get a bit of help or give up reading fantasy stories.
I'm not completely mad, there are bits missing!
SYED
Child of Niami
Posts: 911
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2006 2:02 pm
Location: ENGLAND

Re: Earth Bond, chapter 6 discussion

Post by SYED »

How much power can a nuclear sub produce?

THe navy know of two that has sunk, that they could allow the dragons to recover, would solve their power issues temparily. WIth the assistance of divers to help with interior work would be great.

The thing is he chromatic is forgetting that the firedragons, their long time allies , are huge fans of sports and televison shows. If all technology is taken from the island, they will go back to just ordinary dragon life.
.S.A.M.K.M
User avatar
Lochar
Leaders of the Off-Topic
Posts: 1478
Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2003 4:18 pm
Location: The center of American corruption.
Contact:

Re: Earth Bond, chapter 6 discussion

Post by Lochar »

Bigwind wrote:That's strange, I was under the impression that this is meant to be a fantasy story. I mean, with dragons and things, it would be a very strange story if it was meant to be real. So, if a US naval officer runs off screaming in a FANTASY story, surely it should have absolutely no effect on people's ideas of what a REAL US naval officer would do. Anyone who has difficulty in separating fantasy from reality ought to get a bit of help or give up reading fantasy stories.
It breaks suspension of disbelief. If you're going to put a story in the real world, you have to play by the real world rules and stay internally consistent.
Ignorance is bliss, knowledge is power. Are the powerful very unhappy?

Support my brother.
http://www.justiceformichael.com
SYED
Child of Niami
Posts: 911
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2006 2:02 pm
Location: ENGLAND

Re: Earth Bond, chapter 6 discussion

Post by SYED »

I expect more shooting, less screaming from the military. Anything that big jumping on deck should have whole armories locked and loaded to blast away. If they were expecting trouble or suprises there should be more itchy trigger fingers.
.S.A.M.K.M
User avatar
expedient
Mi'Shara
Posts: 522
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2008 12:24 pm
Location: Pantora

Re: Earth Bond, chapter 6 discussion

Post by expedient »

To put it into perspective, one (1) sailor of two is described as screaming upon seeing Kell landing on the carrier deck. They both then ran and immediately got a squad of marines in place. Spotlights had already been shone on Kell and no one overreacted, despite being surprised by an mythical creature, by shooting or otherwise breaking discipline. Deck crew, presumably unarmed in a non-war footing, just standing around gawping at a large potentially dangerous animal would be a worse reaction than protecting themselves before the armed marines got there. Yelling a warning and running to a protected position to report the situation would be more appropriate.

As to the way the the humans are described as reacting, they are observed from Kell's perspective which has a clear chauvinistic bias, "humans". Overall the response by the Navy was very professional in a surreal situation.

Jenny, by the way, has shown analytical abilities about the political unrest with the dragons beyond those of Kell, our other main narrator. Despite the situation being new to her she correctly predicted what would happen and already had worked up contingencies for supplying aid before the earth dragons thought about asking for it.
Represented by Senator Riyo Chuchi
User avatar
expedient
Mi'Shara
Posts: 522
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2008 12:24 pm
Location: Pantora

Re: Earth Bond, chapter 6 discussion

Post by expedient »

On a different note, I hope that the story of how the earth dragons came to the island is only a partial truth. At the time the Church was local to Europe whereas the dragons were evidently global travellers. The story doesn't quite fit somehow. I'm more inclined to believe that the chromatics had some other purpose (not necessarily nefarious) to gather the dragons together and have somehow subverted/edited dragon history.
Represented by Senator Riyo Chuchi
User avatar
Fel
Weavespinner
Posts: 2004
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2003 6:04 pm

Re: Earth Bond, chapter 6 discussion

Post by Fel »

expedient wrote:As to the way the the humans are described as reacting, they are observed from Kell's perspective which has a clear chauvinistic bias, "humans". Overall the response by the Navy was very professional in a surreal situation.
Glad someone caught what I was trying to do. Just ONE sailor on a ship of some 2,000 or so has a bad reaction, and Kell condemns the entire species. Though he likes humans, it's clear that he believes he's far superior. Typical draconic arrogance. ;)
expedient wrote:Jenny, by the way, has shown analytical abilities about the political unrest with the dragons beyond those of Kell, our other main narrator. Despite the situation being new to her she correctly predicted what would happen and already had worked up contingencies for supplying aid before the earth dragons thought about asking for it.
That's because in some ways, Jenny has much more experience than Kell when it comes to politics, and despite the differences between humans and dragons, she has an almost unnatural basic understanding of draconic mentality (and yes, this is deliberate, for reasons that will become clear later in the story). Think about how she more or less completely analyzed the entire draconic civilization's social structure after just a day of observation and talking with Kell, and was mostly correct. That wasn't just her training as an observer and her college education (she took a lot of political science while pursuing her PhD in computer science, thinking she might run for office someday).

She's also very adept at looking through scenarios and correctly predicting courses of events, a necessity in her line of work that's been refined by experience working with the Hunters, but her own bias shows in how she wants to basically Americanize the dragons. She sees nothing wrong with manipulating them under the banner she carries for her own country, even if that is neither what they want nor what is best for them. As much as she likes Kell and is intrigued by the dragons in general, she's blinded by her own ideals. She wants the dragons to more or less be American citizens, and under American control, and she can't see how that simply will not work. That's also something the dragons would never tolerate.
expedient wrote:On a different note, I hope that the story of how the earth dragons came to the island is only a partial truth. At the time the Church was local to Europe whereas the dragons were evidently global travellers. The story doesn't quite fit somehow. I'm more inclined to believe that the chromatics had some other purpose (not necessarily nefarious) to gather the dragons together and have somehow subverted/edited dragon history.
Only the chromatics and sky dragons were global travelers. The earth and fire dragons were very much natives of western and southern Europe.

Back when the dragons interacted with humanity, the only dragons people ever really saw were the chromatics, and only then if you were in a major city or seat of power, like Rome, Camelot (before it was destroyed in 588 in this story timeline), Paris, Constantinople, etc. Chromatics gathered in places where they could teach humanity magic, which they saw as not only their duty, but their privilege. Back then, the chromatics were scholars in every aspect, and didn't just teach humanity magic, they taught them everything you might learn in a college today. Mathematics, science, engineering, philosophy, in their way they were the harbingers of the western world, trading knowledge with the Greeks, teaching them magic and learning from their master scholars such as Pythagoras, Socrates, and Aristotle in return, helping to spread their knowledge to the Romans, then spreading across Europe after the empire split. In many ways, the chromatics saw the humans as their "pet" race, training them, teaching them, trying to make them better. They were deeply attached to humanity, more so than their own cousins, and they had an honest and enduring affection for the human race.

That's why the ultimate betrayal of the humans hit them so hard. The Catholic church mistook their magic for satanic power (which of course it's not), and as they spread across Europe through the first millenium, their teachings became more and more hostile to the dragons. Eventually, the pope declared that the chromatics were demons, servants of satan, and eradicated all history of how the chromatics had helped humanity and replaced it with legends and tales of the evils of the dragons. As was mentioned in the story, it was at this point when the chromatics changed, because they were greatly wounded by how the humans they had so loved had turned against them. The modern chromatics bear the scars of the emotional wounding of their ancestors in how their racial culture works.

During this time, the other dragons avoided human contact for their own reasons. The sky dragons didn't really care, the fire dragons saw any encroachment on their territory as an act of aggression, and the earth dragons just wanted to be left alone. Things changed for them as church teachings spread over Europe and the lay human citizen became hostile to them, causing the earth dragons to retreat north, the fire dragons to Sicily and the more rugged islands in the Mediterranean, and the sky dragons never really had any issues with the humans because they could never hope to catch or hurt one. Eventually, things happened as you now know.
Just another guy from the shallow end of the gene pool.
User avatar
GBLW
Mi'Shara
Posts: 615
Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2008 2:31 am

Re: Earth Bond, chapter 6 discussion

Post by GBLW »

Thanks Fel, the 'backstory' is fascinating as it gives us a place in history for comparison.

BTW, I'd noticed Jenny's single minded intent to 'Americanize' the dragons and found it somewhat humorous, but saw it as futile. (I'm going to guess that politically she (and the President) are 'visionary' democrats, since I can't see a right wing conservative making the choices they have. -just guessing! lol)

kp
K Pelle aka GBLW
My recent stories are available at: http://www.grynenbayritpublications.com/
User avatar
ANTIcarrot
Sui'Kun
Posts: 444
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2005 12:19 pm
Location: Stevenage, UK
Contact:

Re: Earth Bond, chapter 6 discussion

Post by ANTIcarrot »

expedient wrote:To put it into perspective, one (1) sailor of two is described as screaming upon seeing Kell landing on the carrier deck.
Scream means something different from cry or yell. Words matter. And I did say 'whole section'. I appreciate that Fel doesn't want to spend months on Wikipedia learning stuff - but that doesn't excuse a failure to grasp the basics.

[edit:] I somehow missed Fel's post above, dispite it getting posted several days earlier. If it's Kell describing the reaction as 'screaming' then yes, they works. But written in the third person, it more came across to me as the 'narrator' describing the reaction as screaming.

Military warships are REALLY FUCKING DANGEROUS. Everyone that comes aboard a ship for the first time has that hammered into their head; and Dragons should be no exception. What happens for example if a Dragon jumps up onto the helicopter deck - and there's an actual helicopter sitting there. Or an LA class detects a big patch of silent ocean*, thinks it's a russian sub, and lets loose a 120db ping to see what it is. That's a stunned dragon; underwater. Without assistance, that's a dead dragon. This is before their inevitable crash course R&D program to upgrade phalanx with dopler lidar which would be able to see the air flowing around the dragon even if the dragon itself it invissible.

The ranking officers bend over backwards without a hint of pride in their ship's capabilities. An Arleigh Burke is not a dingy and it is not made from tin foil. Even if the dragons in this universe are that powerful, the officers won't know that. What they know is that they're the most powerful force on God's Blue Earth, and they go whever the hell they want, whenever the hell they want, and if you try and tread on them they will bite you! We're talking about the kind of people who would look forwards to a dragon attack. Who would reguard such a thing as a valuable chance to gather enemy intelligence, some amusing gunnery practice, and also the exciting possibility that some dumb such dragon would be angry enough to fly from the island in a straight line to 'avenge' their comrade. Fly a UAV along a reciprical path and record where it dissapears. You now have a nuclear strike package.

Even if the dragons really are that powerful, we're talking about people who would be reasonably happy to risk an Arleigh Burke to get that strike package. Pawns exist in a game of chess for a reason.


*Even the best stealth can't hide the fact that the stealthed volume contains no water, thus no wildlife, and doesn't produce as much or the right type of noise as it should. And I question if the Cromatics are smart enough to produce the best stealth, given their complete contempt for all things human.
Last edited by ANTIcarrot on Mon Mar 12, 2012 2:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
I is an certified nut
User avatar
ANTIcarrot
Sui'Kun
Posts: 444
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2005 12:19 pm
Location: Stevenage, UK
Contact:

Re: Earth Bond, chapter 6 discussion

Post by ANTIcarrot »

expedient wrote:Jenny, by the way, has shown analytical abilities about the political unrest with the dragons beyond those of Kell, our other main narrator. Despite the situation being new to her she correctly predicted what would happen and already had worked up contingencies for supplying aid before the earth dragons thought about asking for it.
Ahem.
Chapter 7 wrote:Hinado looked at Jenny lightly. “Then send this one,” Sella said, then her eyes widened and she gasped. “She has the potential to use magic!"
Spoke too soon did we? :roll: :wink:
I is an certified nut
User avatar
expedient
Mi'Shara
Posts: 522
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2008 12:24 pm
Location: Pantora

Re: Earth Bond, chapter 6 discussion

Post by expedient »

It's not that I disagree with your central points, I just feel you're being overscrupulous in the analysis. (I would have used the word pedantic but it has too many negative overtones and I don't want any suggestion of attacking you.)

In virtually all fiction "normal" people are dismissed. The protagonists are almost always elevated to a "special" position by being rich, powerful, influential, beautiful, crazy or achieving or encountering such qualities. In most popular movies and TV beautiful people play all the notable roles. Supposedly normal characters become special by extraordinary events. Very few mainstream stories depict people just living their lives. Fiction of the humdrum isn't all that popular.

This is a fantasy adventure story with magic and mythical beasts. Jenny was extraordinary before she encountered dragons. In a few years she might be able to perform simple cantrips. Before her life ends it might be possible for her to fight a magical battle and win. It's possible Fel has just given her this ability so that we, as readers, have some way of finding out how magic works in this world. She might pick up magical XP at a rapid rate. It doesn't matter either way to me.

Humans are special but usually in large collaborative efforts over [relatively] long time periods. If any individual is credited with great achievements we get back into that "special" description. Then all those tropes and memes come back into play. Even when they're not strictly accurate, just an easy way to categorize "specials" and "normals".


I'm pedantic [read: discerning] too about different things. If you don't like those elements that rub you the wrong way then I know I'm not the only one looking forward to the next chapter of Twenty Three Sixty One. :wink:
Represented by Senator Riyo Chuchi
Locked