Shadow Walker 22 Thoughts and Spoilers

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Lochar
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Shadow Walker 22 Thoughts and Spoilers

Post by Lochar »

An alchemical device to enhance a Shaman's power, I assume. Specifically, if they know a Shaman is using a powerful Alchemical device that enhances their power, it will.

Virren is going to have to die by the end of the story, isn't he?
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Re: Shadow Walker 22 Thoughts and Spoilers

Post by expedient »

This chapter is proof that sometimes it doesn't matter if you know where a story might be heading, it's the telling that is key. After all the hints about the relationship between illusion and reality, Fel really attacked that revelation peeling away new layers linking human perception, alchemy and shaman magic, expanding the idea into a Matrix rabbit hole moment. Excellent writing.

It will be interesting to see what Kyven will do with his new belief in the power of illusions. Maybe he'll grow illusory wings made of fire and fly, or change into a dragon :wink:.

Even more interesting could be what he might do with his unbelief. He could become very scary indeed if he decided that some super-weapon couldn't harm him or bullets couldn't reach him.

And that alchemical device? Will Kyven make everyone believe that it will stop all the collars working or some other manipulation? Could he be really outrageous and say nothing and let the collective belief that it will do something to free the Arcans a self-fulfilling reality.
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Re: Shadow Walker 22 Thoughts and Spoilers

Post by Hearly »

So how far does the "belief" go, are the spirit's Made up? what about the Crystals themselves.....
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Re: Shadow Walker 22 Thoughts and Spoilers

Post by Weresmilodon »

Illusion is indeed a reality-shaping power... Where are the limits? Are there any beyond imagination and belief?
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Re: Shadow Walker 22 Thoughts and Spoilers

Post by SYED »

So it is not a Weapon but something the loremasters thought dangerous, but would never create.

Something that only helps arcans not humans. A device that destroys all colars, only kind of invention never built, and designs hidden.
A crystal bomb that would shatter all crystals.
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Re: Shadow Walker 22 Thoughts and Spoilers

Post by TStyle »

Lochar wrote:An alchemical device to enhance a Shaman's power, I assume. Specifically, if they know a Shaman is using a powerful Alchemical device that enhances their power, it will.
It could be something like that, but perish the thought of Fel being that predictable. :)

The first thing that came to my mind was actually a something of a MAD device that would temporarily destroy the ability for alchemical devices to work. Something of a lesson in self-reliance.

The other though I had was Kyven learning how to create a micro-breach into the spirit world from studying the environmental control device he found in the base and using that knowledge to be able to bypass having to petition the shadowfox for power.
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Re: Shadow Walker 22 Thoughts and Spoilers

Post by Weresmilodon »

I think you people are focusing on the device in the wrong way. Remember, it does not matter what it does, all that matter is the belief. It could quite literary do nothing, and still free the arcans, just because the alchemist that creates it believes that is what it does, and the belief of others, once they hear about it, or see it working, will only strengthen it.

Remember, alchemy is an illusion, as is all that comes from it. People just believe strongly enough for the illusion to become real, and the only limit is what people will believe.
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Re: Shadow Walker 22 Thoughts and Spoilers

Post by Hearly »

Weresmilodon wrote:I think you people are focusing on the device in the wrong way. Remember, it does not matter what it does, all that matter is the belief. It could quite literary do nothing, and still free the arcans, just because the alchemist that creates it believes that is what it does, and the belief of others, once they hear about it, or see it working, will only strengthen it.

Remember, alchemy is an illusion, as is all that comes from it. People just believe strongly enough for the illusion to become real, and the only limit is what people will believe.

Hmm, I'm now wondering could it be a machine that makes Crystals? If people believe the crystals have power, then they would....
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Re: Shadow Walker 22 Thoughts and Spoilers

Post by Lochar »

If it was a machine that made crystals, the Lorekeepers wouldn't have bothered as heavily with the mines. They would have just let them play out and then been the only source in town.

No, ten to one gives you there isn't any plan at all. Kyven lies, cheats, and tricks as his first and second method to getting anything. Why change?

No, he's going to come back after a while and drop an illusion on Virren, with a story of what the plans are supposed to be. Then he's going to hand nothing to the Alchemist, and wait for him to create the illusion of an illusion.

"What device can you build, when you think you have the perfect plans to do so, that will enable the Arcans to be free?"

The Ancients built a device to create Arcans, without any knowledge of alchemy or likely what exactly the dimension they were tapping into really was. A Master Alchemist, backed by the inherent belief of the power of alchemy that has literally rewritten everyone's reality, pulling from wholecloth the design for whatever it might be.

Kyven understands. If his belief in his own reality is strong enough, the reality of the world around him cannot intrude on him. A child's wonder, backed by the will of a Shaman.

He's trying to abuse the system with Virren. Hand him an illusion. "This device does this." So long as Virren believes in Kyven enough, and in his own skill to create it, he will create whatever Kyven says it is.

Kyven just can't do it too often, or Virren will become suspicious over how Kyven always has the plans for the perfect device.
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Re: Shadow Walker 22 Thoughts and Spoilers

Post by SYED »

The thing is what ever Kyvern needs built, it has to be something that the loremasters never wanted built, not even for themselves, which is why they killed the Alchemist who was to have designed it. SOmething that frightened so badly while they never had it built, they hid the plans away just in case. ANd it is not a weapon.

My guess something that they never wanted the arcans or the mask to never get their hands on. A device to make a shaman more powerful, where would a maker get the know how to design it.
A device that affects humans but not arcans, what about if it made an entire city fall asleep, it would danna a chance to break the walls, and steal supplies, then leave the battle to be fought behind her.
A collar unlocker, something that would free all slaves. A crystal smasher, similar to an emp but knocks out alchemy machiens every where.

SO alchemy machines cant be mass produced, but could an alchemy device, help mass produce parts and items, if their is supplies and designs available. Due to the war, will have to sell alot of crystals to get the material they need. MAny of the freed arcans will be asked to help mine near by mountains for materials.

CAn kyvern draw power from the shadow realm, or create a better way for devices to draw power from the spirit world? WOuld spirits object to such research.

When will he be robbing the loremasters library, for the ancients science and technology, to the culmination of decade of alchemical research?

Why not bring shaman, to reshape and copy the materials in the base, advance their material sciences. why did he never read those panflets on what RCN stood for. THey need those materials for the war effort, strip it down to the bare rock, but fill it with a death fog, so whn opened it kills everyone. why did he not attempt to activate any of the machines.
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Re: Shadow Walker 22 Thoughts and Spoilers

Post by Hearly »

SYED wrote:The thing is what ever Kyvern needs built, it has to be something that the loremasters never wanted built, not even for themselves, which is why they killed the Alchemist who was to have designed it. SOmething that frightened so badly while they never had it built, they hid the plans away just in case. ANd it is not a weapon.

My guess something that they never wanted the arcans or the mask to never get their hands on. A device to make a shaman more powerful, where would a maker get the know how to design it.
A device that affects humans but not arcans, what about if it made an entire city fall asleep, it would danna a chance to break the walls, and steal supplies, then leave the battle to be fought behind her.
A collar unlocker, something that would free all slaves. A crystal smasher, similar to an emp but knocks out alchemy machiens every where.

SO alchemy machines cant be mass produced, but could an alchemy device, help mass produce parts and items, if their is supplies and designs available. Due to the war, will have to sell alot of crystals to get the material they need. MAny of the freed arcans will be asked to help mine near by mountains for materials.

CAn kyvern draw power from the shadow realm, or create a better way for devices to draw power from the spirit world? WOuld spirits object to such research.

When will he be robbing the loremasters library, for the ancients science and technology, to the culmination of decade of alchemical research?

Why not bring shaman, to reshape and copy the materials in the base, advance their material sciences. why did he never read those panflets on what RCN stood for. THey need those materials for the war effort, strip it down to the bare rock, but fill it with a death fog, so whn opened it kills everyone. why did he not attempt to activate any of the machines.

The Device plans never existed, the Loreguard don't have any plans, He told Virren that so he "believed" it was an actual device... (or at least thats kinda what I'm taking from the way he was acting at the end..)
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Re: Shadow Walker 22 Thoughts and Spoilers

Post by Greymist »

Hearly wrote: The Device plans never existed, the Loreguard don't have any plans, He told Virren that so he "believed" it was an actual device... (or at least thats kinda what I'm taking from the way he was acting at the end..)
I was wondering why no one got this earlier in the thread, I thought exactly the same thing as soon as I read the chapter.
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Re: Shadow Walker 22 Thoughts and Spoilers

Post by Weresmilodon »

Greymist wrote: I was wondering why no one got this earlier in the thread, I thought exactly the same thing as soon as I read the chapter.
People might be a bit too materialistic for that.


Actually, this chapter and it's revelations also have some pretty significant implications about both the Ancient Civilization, and their science.

And, as expedient mentioned, the power of belief, or rather unbelief, might be staggering if properly wielded. All he would have to do, would be convincing enough people to believe what he wants them to, and what better thing could illusions be used for?
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Re: Shadow Walker 22 Thoughts and Spoilers

Post by expedient »

Weresmilodon wrote:Actually, this chapter and it's revelations also have some pretty significant implications about both the Ancient Civilization, and their science.
I was thinking along these lines also. It was the reason why I had Matrix on my mind when I wrote my previous response.

Just how much of the Ancient Civilization's scientific observations were real world effects and how much was just belief-reinforced theory on how the world works?

The difference between the first [Arcan making] and second breach device [operating the air purification system] has me thinking that maybe the Ancients only started reordering their beliefs in the workings of the world once they'd formed a connection with the Spirit energy. Otherwise absolutely everything in the world is suspect and all physics are just rewritable rules that can be superseded if enough people believe in an alternative system. A Matrix-like simulation governed by player consensus of the rules.

So two possible conclusions are that:
  • scientific observations are useless and guns (for example) are only limited by what one (in consensus) expects them to do.
  • there is a core base of physics (as we understand it) and only shaman magic and alchemy are subject to these [new] rules of belief; shamans and alchemical devices are not limited by strength of body or precision of manufacture but by the limits of expectation.
I'll go with option 2. Mostly because it fits better with the civilization ending Great Breach explosion but also because it makes more sense to my real world expectations [and prejudice].

This gives us the possibility that Kyven has been increasingly capable of producing effects as powerful as the other shaman as the belief in him (at large and in himself) has risen. However even those limits have been artificial and Kyven can do much more with his new-found knowledge.
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Re: Shadow Walker 22 Thoughts and Spoilers

Post by Zor »

expedient wrote:
Weresmilodon wrote:Actually, this chapter and it's revelations also have some pretty significant implications about both the Ancient Civilization, and their science.
I was thinking along these lines also. It was the reason why I had Matrix on my mind when I wrote my previous response.

Just how much of the Ancient Civilization's scientific observations were real world effects and how much was just belief-reinforced theory on how the world works?

The difference between the first [Arcan making] and second breach device [operating the air purification system] has me thinking that maybe the Ancients only started reordering their beliefs in the workings of the world once they'd formed a connection with the Spirit energy. Otherwise absolutely everything in the world is suspect and all physics are just rewritable rules that can be superseded if enough people believe in an alternative system. A Matrix-like simulation governed by player consensus of the rules.

So two possible conclusions are that:
  • scientific observations are useless and guns (for example) are only limited by what one (in consensus) expects them to do.
  • there is a core base of physics (as we understand it) and only shaman magic and alchemy are subject to these [new] rules of belief; shamans and alchemical devices are not limited by strength of body or precision of manufacture but by the limits of expectation.
I'll go with option 2. Mostly because it fits better with the civilization ending Great Breach explosion but also because it makes more sense to my real world expectations [and prejudice].

This gives us the possibility that Kyven has been increasingly capable of producing effects as powerful as the other shaman as the belief in him (at large and in himself) has risen. However even those limits have been artificial and Kyven can do much more with his new-found knowledge.
I would say it is somewhere between 1 and 2. For someone to be hurt by an illusion, it would have to gain real mass. To stand on an illusion, it would have to be solid or the creator capable of anti-gravity both would violate some core basic physics. But if we say that reality is both shared and perceived individuallybeliefs, things become a lot different. His ablity becomes more of the ability force to his reality on the shared reality of others.
In other words, something a long time ago self imposed gravity, because others could see the effect and measure it, and accept it, it became apart of the shared reality.
His fire worked the same in a way, they could feel it, see it so they accepted it as apart of reality and it became real.-- It is others accepting it that create it as real.

I dont think his 'unbelief' of alchemy would actually prevent him from being hurt, but would lessen its effects. In the say way as people rejecting his illusions dont necessarily mean they fail completely.The global belief that it works and hurts would be stronger then his belief that it dosen't exist.
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