Spirit Walker - Spoilers - Chapters 1 through part of 14

[boballab]

Kyven's skills with crystals might help him overcome some of his power limitations. Once he understood the spell, he could make a device to change him back and forth, and create his own crystals to power it.

Then again, if he's really smart he could build a crystal maker. If it really is the same kind of magic, you might be able to use one crystal to make two. As long as you're careful and exactly copy the (safe) way the shamans do it, there shouldn't be any danger of a second breach. Wouldn't solve the arcan problem, but you could sell them for an unlimited amount of money; which could be used to purchase arcans and/or companies. If a way could be found to channel large numbers of shaman crystals into human society, this might also stave off war. Whatever the loremasters believe about the shamans, they might be pragmatic enough to do a deal with the devil if it's their only hope to avoid war.

It's a pity the spirits seem to lack useful technical knowledge. The loremasters are experimenting with electricity. Taking back a few tombs on the subject might also start to wean humanity off their dependence on crystals. I live in hope of a character asking, "Well what did they use then? Why can't we do that?"

And I think Clover should start to think in terms of building kennels for the incoming arcans, not homes. Simply knowing there's not a lock on the door, a clean toilet down the hall, and that one day it will get better will be an immense improvement on what the arcan slaves have now.

And just who was North America fighting?

And you don't want to be of no use to your totem. It's very, very bad.

More to the point, he won't be of any use to you, and that would be worse!

Well on the crystal maker option: the way that Shaman make crystals is to ask the spirits for the energy. There would have to be an agreement between humanity and the spirits to safely make a crystal through an alchemical device. Remember Firetail told how the spirits are beings made of energy and the breach hurt them. So asking them to play power source for humanity might be a touchy subject.

On the electricity angle it wasn't really stressed but Danna mentioned it: Coal. Humanity knows Coal is a natural resource and it sounds like they mine it too, but again its a finite resource. Humanity will have a long row to hoe here. They are going to have to try and jump from a 1800's Tech base to a post 2000 tech base faster then the Ancient Civ did then go beyond it to renewable power sources. The Ancient Civ used a certain amount of the finite resources before collapsing, now this crop has to do more with less.

We still don't know everything the Loremasters know and are keeping hidden. The thing with the mana Crystals shows that the upper echelons of the Loremasters know more then people realize.

Who North America was fighting: who knows and is probably not that important to the story. The only thing that might be pertinant would be the reason they were fighting.

[Elsh]

Am I missing something here or aren't alchemists the ones who make crystal powered devices and not crystal cutters?

Crystal cutters from my memory don't know anything about the devices, their knowledge is limited solely to cutting a gem into whatever shape would produce the most powerful result. The alchemist is responsible for seating it. You wouldn't cut a crystal to fit a device since that might cut down on a crystal's power.

Yes, Kyven could create enough crystals to power this device indefinately. But his being a crystal cutter would only make it cheaper it wouldn't make devices better.

[Quindo Ma]

The way I felt it, was that the "help" needed is not necessarily help from another person, but another spirit. As in, it's not Kyven that needs help to transform, it's the Shadow Fox that needs help to set it up and/or accomplish it.

Or to say it in a different manner: He would still be able to transform freely once it's done, but to get there would mean the Shadow Fox has to get help from (one of) those spirits that don't necessarily agree with her way of doing things, or would mean telling what she plans to do to those that might actively try to work against that. That may be a risk she's not willing to take just yet.


P.S: Shouldn't we start a new thread for different chapters now, like with Subjugation? I mean, this one's already over 20 pages long, and information may get skipped over by those just jumping to the end.

[MrNerdHair]

The way I felt it, was that the "help" needed is not necessarily help from another person, but another spirit. As in, it's not Kyven that needs help to transform, it's the Shadow Fox that needs help to set it up and/or accomplish it.

That's my impression of it too.. though I admit I don't yet have a pet Danna's-Kyven-blood theory, so maybe that does have something to do with it.

Or to say it in a different manner: He would still be able to transform freely once it's done, but to get there would mean the Shadow Fox has to get help from (one of) those spirits that don't necessarily agree with her way of doing things, or would mean telling what she plans to do to those that might actively try to work against that. That may be a risk she's not willing to take just yet.

I think this is likely, given what I've read in the Firestaff series. Every time Tarrin gets a new ability or insight into his power, he can use it at will from that point on without Fel having to stop and write a special "Oh, here's a cool new thing" section. (Case in point: cat shapeshifting. Learned once, described in detail, but thereafter a very routine part of the story.) This is, among other things, obviously because the story would get really boring if that had to happen. I beleive Kyven will be able to transform at will, simply because it would allow a bunch of cool stuff to happen, and having to go hunt down this "help" each time he wants to change would be really boring.

P.S: Shouldn't we start a new thread for different chapters now, like with Subjugation? I mean, this one's already over 20 pages long, and information may get skipped over by those just jumping to the end.

HELL YES. I mean, come on, I had to read 14 freaking chapters before I could post to this thread, because everyone's moved on from the interesting nuances and unanswered questions in the previous chapters.


Finally, I'd like to posit an alternate solution to the crystals-are-running-out problem. Instead of making more crystals for humanity to use, drain all the crystals in the world. Sure, human society would descend into chaos, but there wouldn't be war, just a tidal wave of looting, pillaging, and other small-scale annoyances. It's already been shown that humans have guns and crossbows, so there wouldn't be a total power vacuum (though the Loreguard and Loremasters would get the short end of the stick, I can't see the spirits - especially the shadow fox - caring that much). Furthermore, the Arcans could escape easily if their collars are non-functional and the humans don't have painsticks or shockrods anymore.

[boballab]

There is some problems with the Drain the worlds crystal solution:

1. there is only around 1,000 Shaman to do the job and they have to get real close to do it. The Shaman are the spirits agents in this world.

2. Even if they found away to drain all the crystals it would still result in all out war. After the collars were no longer effective:

a. Where do all the Arcans go? The Arcans in Human lands do not know of Haven. They would stay in areas they are used to.

b. The Human Slave masters would panic and use crossbows and pistols to kill the Arcans fearing a revolt. They would also have the Armies of the Kingdoms and the Loreguard helping them.

c. Some of the Arcans in captivity would take this as a sign to get revenge on the Humans and attack their former masters.

d. Some Arcans are so "Broken" to the idea of being a slave that is all they know and couldn't survive on their own.

3. Even tho the Shadowfox isn't the most benevolent of spirits, she isn't heartless either. Remember besides being a spirit of Trickery, guile, deceit and illusion she is also a spirit attuned to healing. This would go against the Shadowfox's basic nature since both the Arcans and the Humans would suffer greatly. She sees that there is no happy ending to this, that both sides will not escape unharmed, but she is looking for a way to minimize the damage.

[hoppy]

Finally, I'd like to posit an alternate solution to the crystals-are-running-out problem. Instead of making more crystals for humanity to use, drain all the crystals in the world. Sure, human society would descend into chaos, but there wouldn't be war, just a tidal wave of looting, pillaging, and other small-scale annoyances. It's already been shown that humans have guns and crossbows, so there wouldn't be a total power vacuum (though the Loreguard and Loremasters would get the short end of the stick, I can't see the spirits - especially the shadow fox - caring that much). Furthermore, the Arcans could escape easily if their collars are non-functional and the humans don't have painsticks or shockrods anymore.

As has been pointed out, humans would still have guns and such and the social organization to massacre the arcans.
The idea of shaman making crystals for the humans to use, seems elegant to me because the money from the money from the crystals could then be used undermine, or take over, and liquidate key parts of the slave trade.

[Elsh]

There is some problems with the Drain the worlds crystal solution:

1. there is only around 1,000 Shaman to do the job and they have to get real close to do it. The Shaman are the spirits agents in this world.

I'm not sure that we fully understand the extent of the spirit's powers on the non-spiritual world. We know that they can manifest and act in our world, the shadow fox has bitten and hurt Kyven repeatedly. Yes, there might be special rules re: their ability to change/affect a specific person, but do we have any reason to believe that they need permission from crystals in order to drain them?

a. Where do all the Arcans go? The Arcans in Human lands do not know of Haven. They would stay in areas they are used to.

No clue how the word would get out, but I'd imagine that anything being hurt would run towards perceived safety. In this case it would be into the wild and away from civilization.

b. The Human Slave masters would panic and use crossbows and pistols to kill the Arcans fearing a revolt. They would also have the Armies of the Kingdoms and the Loreguard helping them.

I'm not very concerned about this. There'd be no fearing a revolt, the second the arcan realizes he's free there's an 80% chance he'll rip his master's head off. Unless there's a special sensor that lets masters know when a collar no longer works, the Humans would never know what hit them. Arcans are built for war and could easily kill a family or five before anyone raises an alarm. I guess what I'm trying to say is that there are just too many ways for this to work out to guess what would happen in most cases, but we can make good arguments either way. The Loreguard wouldn't be of much use, they aren't very numerous (1 to a handful per city) and without their crystal enhanced tools they aren't very useful. It seems these guys are the most dependent on their crystal crutch, they have the widest assortment of them. It would be great to see them fight it out with a wolf/tiger/canine arcan.

Armies take along time to organize and get moving, specially against highly mobile units that can run horses dead. If the Arcans get any sort of head start there is no way the humans can keep up. The more realistic resolution is that the humans follow the HUGE trail to Haven and wage war there. Though they will again have to resort to mundane methods of sending messages and organizing themselves and prepare for war without the huge crutch that are crystal based weapons and gear. To use your own analogy, in this case the Arcans would be wielding the WMD's.

You might have a quote that contradicts this and I'm going completely off memory, but I don't see where the non-crystal armed human militia comes from.

c. Some of the Arcans in captivity would take this as a sign to get revenge on the Humans and attack their former masters.

Heck yeah, the evil dude's wife should be the first to go. Even in fairy tales, not everyone is happy at the end. Dragons and trolls should file a class action lawsuit at this point.

d. Some Arcans are so "Broken" to the idea of being a slave that is all they know and couldn't survive on their own.

And some humans are so pampered they would starve without arcan labor. I don't think that leaving anyone as a slave or a slaver is an option in this war.

3. Even tho the Shadowfox isn't the most benevolent of spirits, she isn't heartless either. Remember besides being a spirit of Trickery, guile, deceit and illusion she is also a spirit attuned to healing. This would go against the Shadowfox's basic nature since both the Arcans and the Humans would suffer greatly. She sees that there is no happy ending to this, that both sides will not escape unharmed, but she is looking for a way to minimize the damage.

I agree with this.

[ANTIcarrot]

Well on the crystal maker option: the way that Shaman make crystals is to ask the spirits for the energy. There would have to be an agreement between humanity and the spirits to safely make a crystal through an alchemical device. Remember Firetail told how the spirits are beings made of energy and the breach hurt them. So asking them to play power source for humanity might be a touchy subject.

It might be a viable short term solution until something else can be found. Kyven's probably going to pull a rabbit out of his hat, but if he can't come up with one big idea, lots of little ideas can achieve the same effect.

[To generate electricity] are going to have to try and jump from a 1800's Tech base to a post 2000 tech base faster then the Ancient Civ did then go beyond it to renewable power sources.

People in the 1800s could have built electric generators if they knew how. The loremasters may well know how. You can run them indefinitely (though not efficiently) on tree wood, which is a sustainable resource.

As for 21st century technology, not a problem. Consider the technology needed to change a human into an arcan. Or to harmlessly all detritus from fur. They have access to Star Trek level 'technology' already. If the spirits can assist in the forging of a few hundred meters of super conducting cable, then you can build a fusion reactor with 1800 technology if the loremasters can supply some technical knowhow. At that point the loremasters can use their clout to 'persuade' people that elastic-trickery is the latest thing, and only boring peopel use crystals. Or something - what they did when they made everyone stop fighting.

Who North America was fighting: who knows and is probably not that important to the story. The only thing that might be pertinant would be the reason they were fighting.

Depends on the length of the story. One of Fel's little habits is to send his characters on a quest to solve an existing problem by finding/buying/stealing a pre-existing solution from somewhere far away. We only know the status of North America in this world. We know nothing of the state of play elsewhere. There's still room in this story for a quest or two.

Besides, there are two parts to this problem:
A) Get the most number of arcans out from under
B) Prevent a huge resource war amongst the humans, which will inevitably spill over onto the arcans.
C) Find a solution to A&B that won't kill large numbers of people, and hence annoy the other spirits, which could probably whoop the asses of both shadow foxes.

[Phantom]

Depends on the length of the story. One of Fel's little habits is to send his characters on a quest to solve an existing problem by finding/buying/stealing a pre-existing solution from somewhere far away. We only know the status of North America in this world. We know nothing of the state of play elsewhere. There's still room in this story for a quest or two.

Besides, there are two parts to this problem:
A) Get the most number of arcans out from under
B) Prevent a huge resource war amongst the humans, which will inevitably spill over onto the arcans.
C) Find a solution to A&B that won't kill large numbers of people, and hence annoy the other spirits, which could probably whoop the asses of both shadow foxes.

Actually your missing a Few Parts here ....

You all so have to Prevent a War between the Humans and Archans too.

Plus you have to assure the Loreguards Don't know how to Cause another Breaking
Which would Cause the Shaman and Sprits to Attack them to prevent it happening again.

The problem as presented has many more then 2 parts.

The Main part is to Prevent Humans Killing Arcans as much as possible
The Main Secondary Part is to Stop or Prevent a Possiable second Breaking.

Remember I Speculated Many many Messages ago that the Sprits would Act to prevent a Breaking
Happening again.

I wonder just how large an area Kyven going be able to cast an illusion onto and maintain it all day long come Spring.



Phantom

[Trekkie]

Plus you have to assure the Loreguards Don't know how to Cause another Breaking

Umm, I think you mixed the firestaff series into spirit walker.

[furry_wolf2001b]

One thing may be is to fool the lore people and other humans that they have found another place with crystals.
(will probably only work for a relative short time, a couple of years maybe if handled right)
And having shaman making crystals and selling them was one of my ideas too, and using the cash perhaps to get the slave trade places.

One point tho, who will first notice the crystals are all gone?
The humans with the crystal items of course.
Collars are passive most of the time, as no arcan wants em to zap.
Made that way to save power i think.

A genocide do not need crystal weapons or equipment to be carried out.
For those in cages simply withholding food and water will do.
Those -In- buildings fire is probably most efficient.

Sword spear bow and arrow, (and guns if they don't use crystals) even something simple as a machete or kitchen knife will be plenty enuf to kill.
That don't even take into account poison.

Don't get me wrong, the human casualty figures will not be good if it comes up to a straight up fight, but i doubt most arcans that gets free will organize as well as humans who sees a threat coming.
The fear from the first killings that will happen will pull humans together to defend themselves in their eyes and that will leave any arcan thats in the wrong place (in reach) in a bad way.

what i have not seen mentioned is the arcan and humans that gets along relatively well.

Another thing is that the arcan slaves are so spread out, every little farm has some, every little hamlet of people, unless they are an exception to the rule.
Ewen if you get the big places with a hundred arcan saves, that leaves thousand and yet more thousands of farms and smaller places all ower the place.
That is true whether you get the crystals disabled or not.

If you can get the crystals away, simply organizing a arcan army will take out just about anything, as arcans still have their shamans, and shamans can still make crystals.
Witch mean you both have crystal weapons -and- shamans themselves fighting on one side, and no magic on the other.
Hmm, wonder if arcans have neglected alchemists and crystal cutters, as they already have shamans.
If so making crystal devices in numbers will be a problem, and if they don't have with that skill ready all they have is the shamans themselves.

As for kyven and and magic power...
We have not been told yet the exact way the shamans drain crystals, but perhaps they can be used as battery's or some such, making and storing mana/ether/magic/energy for later use when the need arise.
-If- the crystals can not replenish the shamans energy directly, then just perhaps he can draw on it for power -for- something(spell) instead of just himself and his totem.

[ANTIcarrot]

Actually your missing a Few Parts here ....

Actually I lumped that all in with 'avoid getting lots of people killed'.

The Main part is to Prevent Humans Killing Arcans as much as possible
The Main Secondary Part is to Stop or Prevent a Possiable second Breaking.

The spirits have shown an interest in watching over the humans as well as the arcans.

Remember I Speculated Many many Messages ago that the Sprits would Act to prevent a Breaking
Happening again.

Good luck to them. However the only way they seem to be able to take physical action is to get their shamans to do something. Any actions the shamans take risks a war and the lives of the arcan slaves. This is something (infiltrating R&D, rallying political opposition) that the Masked might be better suited for.

[ANTIcarrot]

Okay, here's an idea it might work. The Loremasters want to recreate the old world. What if you give them precisely what they want? A complete instruction manual and technical materials and assistance needed to do it. All you'd need to do is present it in the right way. A starship returning from the stars for example... Illusions often work best when trick the other person into seeing what they want to see. And the loremasters would love to see this.

[Phantom]

Plus you have to assure the Loreguards Don't know how to Cause another Breaking

Umm, I think you mixed the firestaff series into spirit walker.

Nope it was the first thing that poped into my mind to discribe the Event.


Phantom

[Phantom]

Actually I lumped that all in with 'avoid getting lots of people killed'.

I took it from how you wrote as being humans only

The spirits have shown an interest in watching over the humans as well as the arcans.

True ...but once again from the way you wrote it it sounded Humans only not archans

Good luck to them. However the only way they seem to be able to take physical action is to get their shamans to do something. Any actions the shamans take risks a war and the lives of the arcan slaves. This is something (infiltrating R&D, rallying political opposition) that the Masked might be better suited for.

But it was already spelled out in the last chapter that if the Loreguards were to attempt it then
the Sprits would send all the Shaman to Stop them ( Regardless of the Cost ).

“Remember the story I told you when we started talking, child, about the war, and the Breach?” she asked, and Danna nodded. “The Loremasters are trying to recover that ancient technology. That in itself is not a bad thing, and the spirits and the Shaman see nothing wrong with it. But should the Loremasters attempt the same experiments that caused the first Breach, then the Shaman would have to stop them. As much as we care for the humans, that threat can never be ignored. As the crystals dwindle, the Loremasters will be more and more desperate to find a solution, and might again start down a path that has no good ending, just as their ancient ancestors once did. The spirits care about the humans, Danna, but the Breach harmed them, and they won’t permit another Breach. We will permit the humans to live as they will, with no interference, even help them if they so wish it, but if they threaten the spirits, we must respond to protect them.”

In my other Message i used Breaking because i was in a hurry ...i should have said Breach


Phantom