Spirit Walker - Spoilers - Chapters 1 through part of 14

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Aightaight
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Re: Spirit Walker - Spoilers

Post by Aightaight »

Just a few thoughts concerning Chapter 12 & the change in the relationship between Kyven and Danna:

Was anyone else surprised by Kyven's sudden antagonism towards Danna and "the death of his dream"? I can understand the antipathy from Danna's POV, but not from Kyven's. My current theory is that the Shadowfox is trying to teach Kyven another lesson in wisdom, because to my mind his current bitterness shows a distinct lack of wisdom.

If Kyven thought about things for even a second Danna's actions would make sense to him. To paraphrase a common saying 'If you truly want to understand a person you must walk a mile in their shoes'. The Shadowfox put Kyven in an Arcan's fur for that very reason. Strangely though Kyven seems to be missing the point when it comes to Danna. Let’s put in a moment of thought ourselves and walk a mile in Danna's shoes (ANTIcarrot has alluded to this in a different context, but it's worth going over again):

Danna's background
1) Danna's job is equivalent to that of top-notch police Detective/Investigator, a job she is well suited to because of her eidetic memory.
2) Danna is the duly appointed representative of a Superpower - the Loremasters. Actions that she takes in her official capacity as a Loreguard Captain have the full backing of that Power (and whatever else you may think of them, the Loremasters are by proxy the Legitimate Government of a Confederation of Kingdoms, duly supported by the legitimate rulers of those Kingdoms). She therefore considers that any attack on the Loreguard is an attack by proxy on an official apparatus of the State, in effect an attempt to overthrow the system of order and law that she owes her allegiance to. This is clearly seen by her reaction concerning the murder of the four Loreguard rapists in Noraam - to sum up 'they might have been corrupt, but it is not for citizens, however well meaning, to take the law into their own hands'.
3) Danna was chasing Kyven for two reasons, firstly to find out what happened to him (magic strong enough to change a human into an Arcan would be a serious threat to civil order/the government. Her second reason was to get to know Kyven as a person.
4) Danna was an Officer in charge of a detachment of troops, and felt her responsibility to them keenly, as demonstrated by her sense of determination after one of them was killed by a monster while chasing Kyven.
5) Danna was brought up in a society which teaches its members from birth that Shamans are evil beings to be feared and detested
6) Danna believed Kyven's statements because of her alchemical Truth-checking device, in particular this includes his declaration that he is not a Shaman

Then in chapter 12
1) Danna's troops are ambushed without warning
2) All of the men under her command are killed
3) She discovers that 'Kyven' actually IS a Shaman

Given her background, Danna must have the following possibilities in mind
1) 'Kyven' used his Shaman abilities to render her Truth seeking device ineffective - after all he IS a Shaman. Remember, Danna doesn't know the true extent of (or lack in) his powers.
2) Her initial speculation that the human Kyven was murdered by a Shaman who took his form must be back on the table. Don't forget, she SAW 'Kyven' as a human with his eyes glowing. Initially she thought it was a unique alchemical device, but now she knows that he is a Shaman it puts a completely different spin on events.
3) Kyven lured her into the wilds and cold bloodedly murdered her men. This is not a simple case of 'capture the loreguard' - people under her command have been killed without cause and without a declaration of war. In other words, Kyven is a 'human' murderer (in Arcan form) at the least and a terrorist Shaman at worst. It doesn't matter whether the act was necessary, Kyven murdered people that she knew and worked with for weeks if not years. How would you feel if you were a police officer and a person that you wanted to help turned around and murdered three policemen on your team? People that you had worked with closely for weeks on end? People that you had bonded with, who had fought at your side against Monsters? People who had shared your sorrow when one of your team members was lost to said Monster?

Thus Danna's position is justified.

Kyven's position, on the other hand, doesn't make nearly as much sense.

Kyven seems to have been influenced by the fact that Claw sacrificed himself on his behalf. This could certainly engender in Kyven a sense of survivor's guilt, and a sense that he should seek vengeance on Claw's behalf. But I do not think that either of these factors would give Kyven sufficient cause to react in the way he did.
1) Firstly, Claw should not even have been there - he had ignored his instructions to help the others get through to Haven. He had thereby endangered all of the others by returning, which I consider to be a reprehensible act and certainly lacking in character.
2) Secondly, Claw died as he wished it, carrying the battle to the humans. Thus his death could not be said to be a tragedy.
3) Thirdly, Claw was an outsider in the group, even if he was starting to heal. You could not say that Kyven liked him, or even felt kinship to him. Kyven is a human-turned-arcan, not an arcan born. Even though Kyven is coming to understand Arcans, he is not truly one of them. In comparison, if Clover had been the one killed then Kyven's reactions would certainly make sense as she has already become a close friend and confidant to him.

There must therefore be another element at play, one that is more closely linked to Danna herself. Saying that Kyven felt outraged that Danna tried to kill him is perhaps overstating the matter, but he certainly seemed shocked by that fact. He seems to have fallen into the trap of ascribing his own motives onto Danna, and is now pissed at her for falling short of his expectations. Because Kyven never intended to harm HER, his state of mind seems to have been that she would never intentionally do harm to HIM. This shows a clear lack of wisdom, and is something that he would do well to guard against.

I think that this is the essence of another lesson that the Shadowfox is trying to teach him.

To further support this contention, I would like to bring up another point that most people have glanced at then passed over. WHY was it necessary to kill all of Danna's troops at that time and in that manner? The concept that they had to be killed because they could not be controlled in any other way does not bear up to closer scrutiny. Alternatives abound:
1) The Loreguard troops could have been bonked on the head by an invisible shadowwolf while they slept, and deprived of their goods and horses so that they could not follow.
2) The horses could have been picked off one at a time from a distance until only one was left, so that Danna and the Hunter would have had to continue on alone.
3) At any time Danna could have been kidnapped by an invisible shadowwolf and separated from her men. Since she had the compass, they would have had no way to follow. The Hunter seems to have his own methods of tracking Kyven down, and could have followed himself.
4) At the very least they could have all been captured and taken to Haven together. Kyven could clearly hunt enough meat to feed them all, and with Shaman magic any attempts to escape would be doomed. They would also have been much more tractable if none of them had been killed. People whose lives are under threat by murderous barbarian Arcans will act accordingly. People who are treated in a civil manner by Arcans who purport to be civilised will have the opposite reaction - and we already know that curiosity is a powerful driving force for Danna.
5) If you give it some more thought, even more scenarios will come to mind.

Clearly it was NOT necessary for the troops to be murdered, and the predictable response from Danna was to be even more antagonistic to Shamans in general and more sceptical about Kyven in particular. The obvious consequences will now begin to be played out.

It was the Spirits that mandated that Danna's troops be murdered. Why then would such a scenario be countenanced by the Spirits? This has the smell of a Shadowfox plan all over it. Cleary the Spirits have a plan for Danna, and want her alive. Clearly Danna's actions are both justified and predictable. Clearly Kyven has a valuable lesson to learn about the wisdom of making unwarranted assumptions.

From this point of view, killing Danna's troops in that manner was quite brilliant - an exercise in guile and deceit worthy of the Shadowfox :twisted: It was an unnecessary action that Kyven bought into because he has recently been so glutted on blood that he didn't stop to think about the consequence of the murders and Danna's likely reaction.

Well, that's my thoughts on the matter. Once tempers cool it will be interesting to see how things work out, but I foresee that there is as much learning to be done on Kyven's part as there is on Danna's. :mrgreen:
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Re: Spirit Walker - Spoilers

Post by furry_wolf2001b »

Manny valid points and ideas i think. :D

One reason why the troops was to be killed -may- be that they could not be trusted afterwards.
Simply they did not want to keep them under guard for life.

But your idea about another lesson seems more valid. :)

But then again, the risk of taking em all out relatively unharmed (or the alternatives)may have been simply too great.
As kyven is hardly a full shaman yet, and it may have been a bit too much for clover to handle it all without a hitch, even with kyvens help.
And the spirits may not want to take that/such risks.
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Re: Spirit Walker - Spoilers

Post by storyreader2005 »

Aightaight wrote:*snip*
People whose lives are under threat by murderous barbarian Arcans will act accordingly. People who are treated in a civil manner by Arcans who purport to be civilised will have the opposite reaction - and we already know that curiosity is a powerful driving force for Danna.
*snip*
I'll get back to this quote in a minute...

I'm not sure it was really a lesson for Kyv to learn so much as there might be a couple of mitigating factors to any plan to take ALL of the loreguard alive... or just abduct Danna.
1) The compass - It couldn't tell Danna how far Kyv was from her, but if he moved to circle around and Danna was studying the compass it would have put her on guard. (Kyv doesn't know about the compass and trying to get behind them is a common technique.)
2) Invisible? - Yes Kyv could turn invisible, but Danna would be VISIBLE if he tried to carry her off. And if he tried to lure her, like appearing for only a second or whispering in her ear, Danna would have the camp up, awake, and at arms in seconds.
3) Knock her out first (if she's on watch) or knock the person on watch out and abduct her in her sleep? Possible, but you're forgetting that Toby would be nearby. The one Human that Kyv respects the skills of and does not underestimate.
4) Knock them out one by one and then tie them up and take them to Haven. Well, like number 3 I doubt that Toby would be that easy but lets say that he has Clover's help or eventually manages it on his own. They are going to the one place where Humans are NOT welcome. I imagine that even one human would cause an outrage. Even Kyv and his being a shaman would have received a "on the cool side of cold" welcome. As things stand now Danna and Toby are probably going to receive a hostile welcome.
5) Lets say that Kyv did successfully abduct Danna, and only Danna, then what happens? Well you might be correct in that Toby has a way to track Kyv, or he might just have succeeded because he has good reasoning skills. In any case Toby would probably still try to track Kev down. But what about the remaining loreguard? Would they follow Toby or go back to Human lands and summon reinforcements? Lets say they went back AND Toby left a trail (or markings) to follow. Leaving those loreguard alive to summon reinforcements would be very, very, very bad from an Arcan point of view.

And the Arcan point of view brings me back to your quote... Humans murder Arcan cubs/kits/babies just for their fur. Wouldn't Arcan's think that's a barbaric act?

So it might not have been a lesson, just the way things had to be for the best possible outcome. (or not JUST a lesson, however if Kyv learns something from this it's a bonus. *shrug*)
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Re: Spirit Walker - Spoilers

Post by boballab »

As to why those Loreguard had to die I think is probably very straight forward. There was just too many for both Kyven and Clover to watch. That Bounding spell we know does induce pain in the bound and can cause sickness, but we don't know if it would really cause death in the prisoners. Clover has said she has no Totem but she seems to relie on guile and deceit an awful lot. Maybe the Shadowfox is her totem or she is just acting under the Shadowfox's orders. It wouldn't be out of the realm of possibilty that the Shadowfox is having Clover lie to Kyven about her totem. So maybe Clover lied about the death part of the spell and with so many prisoners one was bound to try and kill one of the arcan. also flat out the spirits had no use for them only for Toby and Danna, why borrow trouble.

As to Kyven's reaction, I would agree its in reaction to Claw's death and Danna's reaction to him. Kyven is becomming more and more an Arcan while in that form and less Human. In the end though I think he will gain wisdom from it, probably the wisdom of forgiveness and please the Shadowfox. One of Kyvens faults is that he holds onto the bad experiences more then the good ones. The Shadowfox has been alternating Bad experience with good experiences, but Kyven sometimes misses them for what they are. the best example of this is Silver. Silver had a profound effect on him but he hasn't realized yet he would have never met her if the Bad never happened to him. He still needs to learn that good can come from bad things. He is making lemonade when he gets handed lemons but gets caught up in the fact that he has lemons without appreciating the lemonade for what it is.

As to the Shadowfox having a plan that is all but a given, but I believe that it is just not hers. With all the Shaman being recalled to Haven, the other spirits have a hand in it too. I think that the Shadowfox is just the spirit that is running the op for them since it is her shaman that is the pivotal player.
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Re: Spirit Walker - Spoilers

Post by Phantom »

Aightaight wrote:Just a few thoughts concerning Chapter 12 & the change in the relationship between Kyven and Danna:

Was anyone else surprised by Kyven's sudden antagonism towards Danna and "the death of his dream"? I can understand the antipathy from Danna's POV, but not from Kyven's. My current theory is that the Shadowfox is trying to teach Kyven another lesson in wisdom, because to my mind his current bitterness shows a distinct lack of wisdom.

If Kyven thought about things for even a second Danna's actions would make sense to him. To paraphrase a common saying 'If you truly want to understand a person you must walk a mile in their shoes'. The Shadowfox put Kyven in an Arcan's fur for that very reason. Strangely though Kyven seems to be missing the point when it comes to Danna. Let’s put in a moment of thought ourselves and walk a mile in Danna's shoes (ANTIcarrot has alluded to this in a different context, but it's worth going over again):

Danna's background
----Snip-----
Thus Danna's position is justified.
Humm Maybe not truly justified
one point you missed .......

Danna and the Loreguards were outside their Country/territory/jurisdiction so to speak. They in a sense crossed the border into the wild wild west ...
In chapter 1 Fel wrote:the frontier settlement of Deep River. The wilderness to the west of the Smoke Mountains There were no organized governments over there, just frontier settlements and mountain men eking out their own livings off the land.
In chapter 3 Fel wrote:What most called frontier land, area dotted by individual settlements, farms, and mills, areas beyond the governmental authority of any village or town. This place was basically lawless, where anyone could do anything without fear of legal retribution.
Aightaight wrote:Kyven's position, on the other hand, doesn't make nearly as much sense.

Kyven seems to have been influenced by the fact that Claw sacrificed himself on his behalf. This could certainly engender in Kyven a sense of survivor's guilt, and a sense that he should seek vengeance on Claw's behalf. But I do not think that either of these factors would give Kyven sufficient cause to react in the way he did.
------SNIP------
2) Secondly, Claw died as he wished it, carrying the battle to the humans. Thus his death could not be said to be a tragedy.
-----SNIP------
Clearly it was NOT necessary for the troops to be murdered, and the predictable response from Danna was to be even more antagonistic to Shamans in general and more sceptical about Kyven in particular. The obvious consequences will now begin to be played out.
Actualy I'm not sure i agree on number 2 Claw Died as he wished giving his life to Protect a Shaman

True Claw was close to help fight the humans.
But protecting Kyven from harm is what caused him to disobey Clover.
For Claw his Honor at that moment required him to do nothing less.
Aightaight wrote:It was the Spirits that mandated that Danna's troops be murdered. Why then would such a scenario be countenanced by the Spirits? This has the smell of a Shadowfox plan all over it. Cleary the Spirits have a plan for Danna, and want her alive. Clearly Danna's actions are both justified and predictable. Clearly Kyven has a valuable lesson to learn about the wisdom of making unwarranted assumptions.

From this point of view, killing Danna's troops in that manner was quite brilliant - an exercise in guile and deceit worthy of the Shadowfox :twisted: It was an unnecessary action that Kyven bought into because he has recently been so glutted on blood that he didn't stop to think about the consequence of the murders and Danna's likely reaction.

Well, that's my thoughts on the matter. Once tempers cool it will be interesting to see how things work out, but I foresee that there is as much learning to be done on Kyven's part as there is on Danna's. :mrgreen:
I'm not sure it was the Sprits that mandated the deaths ......it was more inexperience and desperation that caused the deaths ....true Clover said they may be either chased off or killed.
Truthfully I'm sure Clover wouldn't have cared either way. Kyven made a mistake because of his inexperience which caused him to have to use more force then might have been necessary in this case.

Would the Fox have a problem with what Kyven did ....I don't think so .....except it was Very forced and sloppy I think she would wish for a lot more Finesse in the future

It boils down to this Danna feels Betrayed by Kyven because he's a Shaman......Like wish Kyven fells betrayed by Danna because she tried to kill him.

the other feelings are secondary and after the afact


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And in the fury of this darkest hour
I will be your light
A lifetime for this destiny
For I am Winter born
And in this moment..I will not run
It is my place to stand
We few shall carry hope
Within our bloodied hands
(bloodied hands)
And in our Dying, we're more alive-than we have ever been
I've lived for these few seconds
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Re: Spirit Walker - Spoilers

Post by Mizriath »

Interesting points and conjectures at the moments. I give up trying to earn cookies but rather indulged in reading pleasures.

Currently, in here at this time to check on new instalments while making sure my kids are studying for their exams.

Kids being kids, they will not study even when it serve them best to study and cram on the day before exams. I only realise that in college. Well in working life, having a passport to open doors with results should not be belittled.

I wish I could make money by just building a tinfoil and get ideas and also write stories. I love reading but it does not really put food on the table:(. So grudgingly have to go out and slought for cash to put food on table and then catch up with Fel's works - that part is the happy part. And rereading the first 10 chapters again. :D
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Re: Spirit Walker - Spoilers

Post by ANTIcarrot »

Aightaight wrote:To further support this contention, I would like to bring up another point that most people have glanced at then passed over. WHY was it necessary to kill all of Danna's troops at that time and in that manner? The concept that they had to be killed because they could not be controlled in any other way does not bear up to closer scrutiny.
I think you're forgetting that Danna' could track Kyven via his blood, and that they were pushing their horses (and probably themselves) beyond natural endurance. (They night not have been sleeping at all!) Shamans are also just as vulnerable to physical and magical weapons as anyone else. They might be able to dodge and heal really quickly, but a lucky hit can still kill one. Attempting to capture a well disciplined and equipped groups of men, would be dangerous and require the shamans risk their lives.

1) A guard would have seen him coming. They might not be sleeping. (2) This would mean they turn back. Also 'tracers work both ways'. (3) Anything kyven carries in shadow form is still visible. And audible. (4) Dangerous. Death of either shaman would pose problems for the grounp.
Clearly it was NOT necessary for the troops to be murdered,
On the other hand, what is to be gained by keeping them alive?
It was the Spirits that mandated that Danna's troops be murdered. Why then would such a scenario be countenanced by the Spirits?
Because the spirits aren't very nice? From a cynical PoV, this is also a good first step to brain washing someone.
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Re: Spirit Walker - Spoilers

Post by boballab »

I believe that the spirits have a very good reason to bump off any loreguard they don't have a need for: survial.
The Great Ancient Civilization fractured and fell into war with itself, known to them simply as The War, a war so vast, so sweeping, so destructive, that it shattered the Great Ancient Civilization, completely destroying it, and scattering the few human survivors to leave them to fight for survival without their mythical technology. The War had destroyed their
ancient ancestors and wiped the knowledge of their wondrous technology from the minds of the survivors, leaving humankind to rebuild from the ashes. The War had tortured the very earth itself, had been so destructive that it had caused the Breach, the titanic accident that, the Loremasters said, caused the Great Ancients to tap into the power of magic for the first time and without control, and caused a catastrophic explosion that had virtually wiped the humans off the east coast of Noraam
“Shaman aren’t what the Loremasters say they are,” Virren explained. “They’re not demons or practitioners of witchcraft. They don’t drink the blood of children to fuel their power,” he said with a snort. “They use the same power that we tap using mana crystals, they just use it directly from the source.”
“Just so, human,” the wolf said. “The power of crystals is spirit energy trapped in the mortal world.”
“They seek to restore us to the glory of the Great Ancient Civilization, Kyven,” Virren told him, “and while that can be a noble pursuit, they seek to restore every facet of it, not just the wondrous technology they possessed, but also their customs and practices.

What I believe these little snippets point out is that the Ancients actually tried tapping the spirits as a new power source, like they were an oil well. That "accident" probably destroyed either some of the spirits, destroyed some of their realm or robbed them of some of their energy. Thw mana crystals are what remains of either the spirts destroyed or the energy taken from them. The Loremasters want to brong that all back so to me the spirits are just trying to stop them from doing it again.
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Re: Spirit Walker - Spoilers

Post by Mysterious »

That's a very good point... :!:

We haven't discussed in great detail where exactly all the crystals came from and how the Ancient Civilisation got them in the first place. I believe it was alluded to that there was a massive explosion that maybe warped the dimensions so the crystals manifested in the physical world, but I'm not sure. I don't know if the Ancient Civilisation deliberately sought out to use the spirit world as a power source but it also could have been accidental side affect from using a new Weapon of Mass Destruction. A lot of the crystals are concentrated in various areas but mostly in the North. Why only the North? Would it not be spread out across all the land mass if the spirit world was to be exploited for it's energy?



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Re: Spirit Walker - Spoilers

Post by Trekkie »

Mysterious wrote: A lot of the crystals are concentrated in various areas but mostly in the North. Why only the North? Would it not be spread out across all the land mass if the spirit world was to be exploited for it's energy?
This is because the breach into the spirit world took place in the north, very close to Atan infact.
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Re: Spirit Walker - Spoilers

Post by boballab »

Mysterious wrote:That's a very good point... :!:

We haven't discussed in great detail where exactly all the crystals came from and how the Ancient Civilisation got them in the first place. I believe it was alluded to that there was a massive explosion that maybe warped the dimensions so the crystals manifested in the physical world, but I'm not sure. I don't know if the Ancient Civilisation deliberately sought out to use the spirit world as a power source but it also could have been accidental side affect from using a new Weapon of Mass Destruction. A lot of the crystals are concentrated in various areas but mostly in the North. Why only the North? Would it not be spread out across all the land mass if the spirit world was to be exploited for it's energy?



Mysterious
There is another part to that first quote I used that said that the "three great cities" were destroyed. If you look at the clues given throughout the story it seems that Fel used the US as the basis of the geography. Noraam = North America, The Smoke Mountains = the Smokey Moutains, Podac river = the Potomac, The Deep River = tributary of the Mississippi, Georvan(which is at the south end of the smoke Mtns.) = Georgia, Flaur(which is south of Georvan) = Florida.
Once it arrived here and was processed along with the locally grown tobacco, it was packed into small wooden barrels here in Riyan and then shipped down the Bay Road to Stinger Bay, the main port city for central Avannar. Like Atan, Chardon, Avannar, and Riyan, Stinger Bay was a free city, independent, not part of any kingdom, as was the way of things in central Noraam. The kingdoms existed to the north and south of what was called the Free Territories by those who hailed from outside of the region.
Stinger Bay got its name because of the jellyfish. They drifted in on the tides and got caught in the Great Blue Bay, named for the blue crabs for which the bay was famous, until they were all but everywhere in the water during some times of the year.
From the above quotes you can piece together that Atan, one of the free territories, is in central Noraam. the Great Blue Bay is the Chesapeake bay.

If that is the case the "Three Great Cities" would be Boston, NY and Philly. Now go with the experiment happened at say Columbia Univestiy in NY it would radiate out from there. Stalker said that the Mortal world intrudes into the spirit world, to me that means they are the same world just different planes of existence. The blast ripped the boundries killed some spirits and there remains (mana Crystals) came to rest in the mortal plane. sinnce the blast happened in the NE the most casualties would be in the same place and therefore the most mana crystals. This is all conjecture of course.
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Re: Spirit Walker - Spoilers

Post by hoppy »

boballab wrote:
Mysterious wrote:That's a very good point... :!:

We haven't discussed in great detail where exactly all the crystals came from and how the Ancient Civilisation got them in the first place. I believe it was alluded to that there was a massive explosion that maybe warped the dimensions so the crystals manifested in the physical world, but I'm not sure. I don't know if the Ancient Civilisation deliberately sought out to use the spirit world as a power source but it also could have been accidental side affect from using a new Weapon of Mass Destruction. A lot of the crystals are concentrated in various areas but mostly in the North. Why only the North? Would it not be spread out across all the land mass if the spirit world was to be exploited for it's energy?



Mysterious
There is another part to that first quote I used that said that the "three great cities" were destroyed. If you look at the clues given throughout the story it seems that Fel used the US as the basis of the geography. Noraam = North America, The Smoke Mountains = the Smokey Moutains, Podac river = the Potomac, The Deep River = tributary of the Mississippi, Georvan(which is at the south end of the smoke Mtns.) = Georgia, Flaur(which is south of Georvan) = Florida. If that is the case the "Three Great Cities" would be Boston, NY and Philly. Now go with the experiment happened at say Columbia Univestiy in NY it would radiate out from there. Stalker said that the Mortal world intrudes into the spirit world, to me that means they are the same world just different planes of existence. The blast ripped the boundries killed some spirits and there remains (mana Crystals) came to rest in the mortal plane. sinnce the blast happened in the NE the most casualties would be in the same place and therefore the most mana crystals. This is all conjecture of course.
I would say more like they tapped into the spirit-world some how. They also could have used cystals and spirit energy before that, but they disrupted the ether and killed any one who used spirit energy or was close to a cut crystal. This would leave only children who got lucky, or the dirt poor. No one, would be around who knew exactly how the old technology worked so everything would seem new to them. Also, for also for all kyvens education was good it was more like a trade-school and may have omitted the history of areas outside of local. So destruction could have been more generalized.
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Re: Spirit Walker - Spoilers

Post by boballab »

When it comes to geography Kyven's education would be pretty good since he travelled with Master Holm to different areas.
That was the goal of the Loremasters. They were scientists at heart, historians, men and women of intelligence and vision, seeking to reclaim the technology and knowledge of the Great Ancient Civilization. They’d started in Avannar nearly six hundred years ago, starting as a society in a college in Avannar that dedicated itself to recovering the lost secrets of the Great Ancient Civilization.
The Loremasters are a grp that probably stumbled on some old records at that college and used it to take power. So when it comes to knowledge of the ancient past they would be the people in the know and from what they have put out the Breach was the first use of Magic by the humans. There was no crystals or crystalcutting before that time, it is even common knoweledge that planes flew without using mana crystals at that time. That tells us the Ancients used Fossil Fuels. We know the Ancient Civ. broke down and one thing that would cause that would be the depletion of fossil fuels. Since the Fuels were depleting the scientists would be searching for alternative fuel sources. The Loremasters probably know the full truth but have only put out info that only helps them so if we go with this hypothesis:

1. The Loremasters know more then they let on about the Anvcient Civ. They know about Fossil Fuels but it was all used up.

2. They know there was an experiment to use Spirit Energy and it made the Mana Crystals.

3. Their Civ is based on Mana Crystals and have been using them since the time of the experiment.

4. The Mana Crystals are a finite resource and when they are gone the Loremasters Civ will collapse.

5. To keep their Civ going the Loremasters need to recreate the Ancient experiment and make more mana crystals.

Bottom line the Loremasters to keep their power and Civ need to make more Crystals and the only way to do that is to take it from the spirit world. Stalker said the Spirit world is Kyven's world only inhabited by Spirits. Also keep in mind that the Shamans didn't come about until 400 years after the Loremasters came to power, so it seems the Shamans are the Spirits response to the Loremaster threat. The Spirits only applied the enemy of my enemy is my friend to the Arcans since the arcans already were enslaved by the Loremasters. It probably took the spirits that long to guide the breeding of the Arcans to produce the first shaman. Remember the Shadowfox has Bred Kyven once to produce a Human Shaman child and is planning to do it again.

P.S. FEL WE NEED OUR FIX!
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Re: Spirit Walker - Spoilers

Post by ANTIcarrot »

Mysterious wrote:We haven't discussed in great detail where exactly all the crystals came from and how the Ancient Civilisation got them in the first place.
Pretty much all we know is that they were ~50+ years ahead of us in terms of technological development. The high points of their civilisation (creating arcans and stellar-slowboats) are not so impossibly difficult that it need be more than that. Fel also hinted that they were functionally similar to us as well, with advanced medicine, flying machines, the odd war, etc.

My own personal theory (which naturally avoids magic like the plague :twisted: ) is that the GAC didn't 'get' the crystals from anywhere, and didn't tap the spirits for power. I think they might have made them. Nano-tech would be a bit crude for that, but femto-tech or clarke-tech could easily do that. Then have the spirits rebel, pull a Skynet, and wipe out the competition. Popular as post-apocalyptic scenarios are, it's terribly tricky to have a disaster that wipes out all technology and leaves survivors - unless you have a guiding hand organising the whole thing. If you have significant space travel (assuming this part isn't a distortion of Star Trek mythology or something) then you also have to explain how any disaster that leaves Earth intact manages to destroy off world colonies and/or leaves them unable to contact Earth.

In this context 'breach' would be an AI singularity event. If indeed the breach is something that really happened. The loremasters aren't exactly an flawless source of truthful information.

Something else to consider. The loremasters think the arcans aren't sapient. What if they're right? What if by themselves they are not; what if they need argumentation of some kind before they become people? The problem is that form follows function. If you want something that looks like an arcan, you can fit a human-class brain in their head. If you want a creature that has the skull shape and strength to support a powerful set of jaws and jaw muscles, and ears on top of the hear, and high fidelity senses, and the high-fidelity cortex's to process the data, and a high-fidelity prefrontal cortex to understand it (a bit like HD tv, every part has to be HD, or you don't get the picture quality) then you can't fit that into a human size head. Either arcan heads are twice the size of human ones (not counting the muzzle) or something has to give. If an arcan prefrontal cortex was half the size of a human one (and made from the same basic material) woudl it really be so unfair for the loremasters to jump to conclusions?

Consider it morally too. If the GAC was anything like us, the prospect of enslaving people wouldn't be tolerated. But enslaving a animal, or a computer inside the brain of an animal? Well, that's a contradiction in terms isn't it? Who would argue that a nano-virus, or magic spell, deserved the vote? Especially since an appropriately programmed nano-virus (like any good robot servant) would either argue against the concept, or be unable to take advantage of the opportunity. (This would also explain ferals, the enhancement didn't take in them.) Could you blame the loremasters if they had several Arcan-Owners-Manuals that said, "Trust us, we are the Great Ancient Civilisation, we know more than you, and for these specific reasons, the Arcans are not people. If you had better technology you could test for this. Until then, take our word for it."

Well, of course you can blame them for believing what they're told over what they can see with their own eyes and what makes sense in their own mind. And of course, no one on this forum has ever done such a thing, have we? Someone said they wanted Danna to find the truth. Truth can be a nasty messy thing which often uncovers facts that both sides dislike.
A lot of the crystals are concentrated in various areas but mostly in the North. Why only the North? Would it not be spread out across all the land mass if the spirit world was to be exploited for it's energy?
If this is really a tech-based world, then the spirits might have limits of their range. A clarke-tech explosion might have had limits on its range. If the crystals are natural rock formations that just happen to be able to collect ambient magic, then they could be localised deposits from a volcano/asteroid strike/breach. In which case there could be other islands of magic in the world.
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Re: Spirit Walker - Spoilers

Post by ANTIcarrot »

boballab wrote:There was no crystals or crystalcutting before that time, it is even common knoweledge that planes flew without using mana crystals at that time. That tells us the Ancients used Fossil Fuels. We know the Ancient Civ. broke down and one thing that would cause that would be the depletion of fossil fuels.
The planes might have been held up with spoken magic or something. The lack of mana-crystals doesn't automatically mean fossil fuel civilisation. It also does not follow that depletion of coal/oil/gas would automatically mean the end of a world like our own; especially if the world in question could build even crude starships. That pretty much means the world already had fusion or space solar power. Whatever the reason the ancients started playing around with magic, I don't think it was a source for electricity.

(1+3) Given.
(2) Conjecture
(4) Quite possible. Then again, they have mana-power steam ships, and it doesn't take a genius to figure out you could also burn wood in there.
(5) Or they could be slightly brighter and go after ancient tech that didn't need mana crystals. Electricity is mentioned as a recent rediscovery.

Though I wonder if the wikunni... Ops. If the arcans don't have the solutions to some of these problems.
so it seems the Shamans are the Spirits response to the Loremaster threat.
But then again, why would the spirits see the loremasters as a threat? Unless they're nasty spiteful beings that don't like competition, and/or not nearly as powerful as they like their followers to believe.
P.S. FEL WE NEED OUR FIX!
Definitely agree. As soon as he's happy he's dealt with his RL issues though. We want to exploit him in a sustained fashion after all. :P
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