Well...that's that. A major announcement.

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MartinK
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Re: Well...that's that. A major announcement.

Post by MartinK » Fri Nov 11, 2016 9:42 pm

zedd wrote:Let's stop talking politics before we are all angry with each other ( or at least move this discussion in a different thread). Let's wait and see.
We are already in the General Discussion forum, where else would we end up in?

Another thing I've never understood, why get angry when someone else disagrees with you? One would think using rational and understandable arguments would be more successful in changing peoples minds than getting angry. That would just make me stop arguing and giving up on the discussion, probably looking for a way to leave that place as well.
calista241 wrote:The Electoral College are actually the voters who vote for President. When a candidate wins a state vote, that person gets to select the EC voters who actually vote.

Back in the day, the EC was implemented to distribute power away from city centers and towards land holders. If there was no EC, Presidential campaigns would focus almost entirely on California, NYC, Illinois, and a a couple northeastern states. Today, while NYC and CA and a handful of other states still have more EC votes comparatively than other states, other state results actually matter.

If there wasn't an EC, I genuinely think we'd have another "I don't have any representation" brouhaha in the making. There might not be an actual revolt, but there would be a LOT more conflict and political parties would align with that dynamic. Filibusters and shit would happen everywhere since the inner states would have a LOT more senators than the coastal states that would decide the presidential election.
Isn't that the same as telling people that they are worth listening to less if they are living in a city than if they are living in the less populated areas outside cities?

Besides, with less than 60% of the people that are able to vote (no aliens, no convicts) actually voting, isn't that "my voice doesn't matter" already a widespreat feeling? Why don't people go voting then? I would think that it would motivate more people to go, especially since the lead of the winning candidate is traditionally always so narrow. Why, if everybody that didn't go voting went and voted for some third party, that guy would actually be able to become president. That is how many don't vote. And it isn't like the elections aren't the biggest media spectacle whenever it comes up and you are able to ignore it.
Last edited by MartinK on Fri Nov 11, 2016 9:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Well...that's that. A major announcement.

Post by zedd » Fri Nov 11, 2016 9:48 pm

MartinK wrote: ....We are already in the General Discussion forum, where else would we end up in?....
My apologies, I though this was in announcements :( my bad.

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Re: Well...that's that. A major announcement.

Post by Wolfee » Sat Nov 12, 2016 3:38 am

None of us normal folk like politics... if you do there is something wrong with you. Just translate the word politics.... poly-tics - aka many blood sucking critters. I Remember a joke where aliens came to visit earth, they never landed, once they heard about politics they fled in horror.

Note: this post has been edited with a very heavy hand... I've chopped over half a page... simply cause its time to put this entire subject to bed for another 4 years hopefully.

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Re: Well...that's that. A major announcement.

Post by MartinK » Sat Nov 12, 2016 4:55 am

Wolfee wrote:None of us normal folk like politics... if you do there is something wrong with you. Just translate the word politics.... poly-tics - aka many blood sucking critters. I Remember a joke where aliens came to visit earth, they never landed, once they heard about politics they fled in horror.

Note: this post has been edited with a very heavy hand... I've chopped over half a page... simply cause its time to put this entire subject to bed for another 4 years hopefully.
As soon as the first stone age village appeared in range of another one and both were able to reach each other politics appeared. Although some villages prefered to rob and plunder their neighbors, they rather disliked when they themselves were the target of one of those raids. So, politics are an important part of modern society, even though many people seem to see politicians as criminals that just happened to never have made their actions illegal.

Once upon a time, when democracy was first invented, things were different. Those people at the time were some of the best and brightest they had. So, they found ways around most existing problems. That they had so much success can be seen that one of the biggest problems we nowadays have with politicians couldn't exist at that time - big corporations. There wasn't any big corporation around at the time to corrupt politicians by offering bribes. You got your shoes from the shoe maker, your bread from the local bakery, your clothes from the local weaver. All those were people and at best families managing their business. And as such, bribing in the size and effect as we have nowadays was impossible.

Oh, and I think the whole party system also came as a consequence to democracy. The idea was to choose a local representative to send to the national parliament, senate or whatever you might want to call it. That representative had to decide and act in the best interests of those who choose to send him instead of some other guy. Today, that representative has to decide in the best interests of their party first and only if that party either isn't too interested in the outcome can he decide on his own. Why, in some places you might even only get to vote for a party and they don't bother to put a persons name to vote for anymore. In the US, I believe there has never been the case were a single party put up more than one candidate, so it has gone so far that the candidates are pre-selected by the parties before even giving the voters a choice.

And to end this post, i'd like to ask where the heck I might have heard this quote from: Those who don't want to lead are the best leaders. Or something with a similar meaning at least. Can't remember where I got it from, but how do you get one to become a politician if he doesn't want to be... or to get rid of all those who actually want to do that job?
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Re: Well...that's that. A major announcement.

Post by Bakasama » Sun Nov 13, 2016 4:08 am

Why am I doing my first post on a political topic? idk guess I am insane.(long time lurker)
MartinK wrote:Isn't that the same as telling people that they are worth listening to less if they are living in a city than if they are living in the less populated areas outside cities?

Besides, with less than 60% of the people that are able to vote (no aliens, no convicts) actually voting, isn't that "my voice doesn't matter" already a widespreat feeling? Why don't people go voting then? I would think that it would motivate more people to go, especially since the lead of the winning candidate is traditionally always so narrow. Why, if everybody that didn't go voting went and voted for some third party, that guy would actually be able to become president. That is how many don't vote. And it isn't like the elections aren't the biggest media spectacle whenever it comes up and you are able to ignore it.
It isn't exactly saying that people in cities are less worth listening to/campaigning with(which for reference the state with the largest voice per person is Wyoming with 1 vote per 142k people and the weakest is New York with 1 vote per 519k people so a voter in Wyoming has ~27% more electoral power), it more is saying that they are easier to listen to/campaign with. You could do a campaign event in NYC and literally meet hundreds of people, you could give a few dozen people fliers and expect them to reach thousands of doors in under a week. This isn't really the case in the more rural areas, anyway the intent behind the design was for 3 reasons. First and foremost it was designed to protect against the tyranny of the majority; next as the U.S. federal government was originally designed to represent the interest's of the several states instead of the people(who's only direct influence on virtually everything in the federal government except the House of Representatives was electing the elector); and the final reason was to convince the (then less populous)democrat states to agree to the constitution(also why slaves counting as 3/5ths of a person was put in there).

So having said that I personally do like the electoral college, because I do think the less densely populated states and their concerns would get thrown under the bus so to speak. However I say that when in my lifetime it has only ever worked in my favor (I think Hillary Clinton is the worst human being to run for office in my lifetime followed VERY closely by Donald Trump) so for me it was lose lose this election(I voted Johnson even though I don't agree with him politically per se, as I felt both main candidates were terrible people).
Last edited by Greymist on Mon Nov 14, 2016 5:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Well...that's that. A major announcement.

Post by Wolfee » Sun Nov 13, 2016 10:26 pm

MartinK wrote: As soon as the first stone age village appeared in range of another one and both were able to reach each other politics appeared. Although some villages prefered to rob and plunder their neighbors, they rather disliked when they themselves were the target of one of those raids. So, politics are an important part of modern society, even though many people seem to see politicians as criminals that just happened to never have made their actions illegal....And to end this post, i'd like to ask where the heck I might have heard this quote from: Those who don't want to lead are the best leaders. Or something with a similar meaning at least. Can't remember where I got it from, but how do you get one to become a politician if he doesn't want to be... or to get rid of all those who actually want to do that job?
**SIGH!!** Point take MartinK - below please find my un-redacted post - 5 gallons of pure gasoline: Its very rough - I could polish this up like something for a master's thesis and it would be 10-30 pages, long with many a quote and example...but I hate politics. :P

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

None of us normal folk like politics... if you do there is something wrong with you. Just translate the word politics.... poly-tics - aka many blood sucking critters. I Remember a joke where aliens came to visit earth, they never landed, once they heard about politics they fled in horror.

Politics is the process where by the natural freedoms that we as Americans should be enjoying are "sold" to those who believe they know what is best, to the so called elite: those who will lie, steal, cheat, imprison, slander, purger-themselves, have folks murdered if you upset the status quo that allows them to enrich themselves - all for some glass beads and (part Cherokee - I can talk about the blankets) infected blankets. In other words what you give up to these folks for the pittance they give you isn't worth it. It makes you beggars - and we seen a number examples of how the elites think of us the normal folk as beggars, deplorable's, simple minded country folks, peasants to be taxed.

**Note the normal folks I refer to are the everyday Americans, farmers, factory workers, professional people, medical professionals, construction workers and utilities... who have bills to pay like 99% of everyone else. AKA those who actually make this country possible. Who are the engine who makes this country grow, live and breath.

The ugly truth of the matter is they're not elite, they may have gone to the fashionable schools, Harvard, Yale, etc... but their put they're pants on one leg at a time. They are no wise or smarter than either any of us, they're just power hungry and the honesty of they're deepest darkest heart, around the private cocktail party table, they honestly do not give a damn about any of us "normal" folk, except what they can take from us: money, freedoms, the right to disagree with them, guns, land, quality medical care / food at a reasonable price... etc.

The government was never supposed to provide SS, Medicaid and the like. This is where things have gone wrong - in its every expanding growth, its wish to regulate everything. Yes the government should be regulating the protection of the environment, trade, immigration and the like. But SS and Medicaid should never have come about. What should have happened is that the government should have busted the insurance companies for price gouging and collusion to fix the price of coverage. The government should not be allowed to provide retirement and medical - this along with taxation and the general "powers" of the government gives it to much power/control over the lives of its citizens.

On the other hand the government should be busting the chops of the insurance companies. Insurance companies, yes they are a for profit business but like the top 10 national banks.... When you are so integral, so necessary to the economy (of the nation/world), to general well being of the citizen/country as a whole.... these companies need to be held to much higher standard. I have no problem forcing these organizations to a 5-10% max profit a year. Set the price of fees at rock bottom lows, hidden fees and the other BS Wells Fargo (Bank of America several years ago) for example got caught pulling - automatic jail sentences for the top 2 or 3 layers of executives, multi-billion dollar fines. Hell break up a couple companies, and sell the, assets folks will get the idea real quick and not pull any funny stuff. If they do - next time around its death sentences - public hangings, crucifixions or firing squads for the whole world to see, so people can learn, if they don't learn with the carrot, the stick will do in the end.

We don't need change so much as a heavy handed pruning of the government. The tree of Liberty has been watered with the blood of patriots (our loyal military) for long enough. Its time to haul the elite out of they're ivory towers and have a few executions on the Washington Mall. The government needs to be reminded from time to time that they work for us, not the other way around.

Now let me end this with - I didn't want to vote for either of them. I voted for what I felt was the lesser of 2 evils. But is one of them really the lesser of two evils? I honestly don't know. Even now I have serious concerns and doubts. While I certainly didn't want one candidate to win, I didn't want the other one to win either. And even now that the election is over it doesn't stop! HRC followers believe that she is destined by the Divine right of presidents (mocking reference to the Divine Right of Kings) or some BS to be the next president. Totally dissing the other 50% of the voters who voted for the other guy, like they're wishes on the subject didn't fucking matter. I mean come how how self-fucking-righteous and clueless is that!? Oh your canidate didn't win, boo-whoo... life isn't fair (don't get me started on the American education system and the lie/disservice that is no child left behind). And then there is DT raciest, bigot, blow-hard, among other adjectives that would have been the cause for a duel or worse back in the day!! Are either of these two the best our poor abused Republic could come up with!?!?!

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Re: Well...that's that. A major announcement.

Post by Steve.K.Bates » Mon Nov 14, 2016 12:01 am

Wolfee wrote:Are either of these two the best our poor abused Republic could come up with!?!?!
No, but they're the only two that the press deigned to follow. So who is responsible for the President elect?? Take a good look in a mirror...

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Re: Well...that's that. A major announcement.

Post by NSC » Mon Nov 14, 2016 12:44 pm

I did not want Trump to win, or Clinton, but someone had to and has. What’s happened since then?

Let’s see:
Markets did not crash. In fact, they’ve been pretty up. I still expect the normal volatility.
No foreign government (to my knowledge) has freaked out.
Putin, well that one remains to be seen because it’s going to take time.
Keeping the rules about pre-existing conditions and children on parent’s insurance until age 26 is now being stated. Many people (including myself) are suffering financially from the ACA, and it's expected to get worse.
Tone and rhetoric across the board has changed, IMO for the better.

Talk of revolution is as out of place now as it was 8 years ago when we elected a black man as president. We need to watch and wait, and hold them all accountable for whatever happens.

The reality of it all is that we just have to wait and see. We’ll know how things are going and have another chance to change directions in 4 years.

That's all I have to say. I'm sorry to hear it's going to affect your writing for such a long time, but we each deal with things in our own way. I'll still be here when you get back to it.

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Re: Well...that's that. A major announcement.

Post by NSC » Mon Nov 14, 2016 12:45 pm

BTW, Thank You for your service in the military.

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Re: Well...that's that. A major announcement.

Post by Darksparkru2 » Tue Nov 15, 2016 2:27 pm

Bakasama wrote: ; and the final reason was to convince the (then less populous)democrat states to agree to the constitution
So I want to put in this Democrat isn't the democrat we have now. Democrats and Republicans basically flip flopped in the late 18th century in what each one represented. Democrats used to be the conservatives and Republicans would of been the liberals. Abraham Lincoln for example was a Republican and Andrew Jackson was a Democrat.

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Re: Well...that's that. A major announcement.

Post by Bakasama » Tue Nov 15, 2016 4:57 pm

Actually I misspoke, because it wasn't even the same party(parties at the time were Federalist and democratic-republican party). My apologies been doing a lot of stuff in Civil War era recently and mixed it up in my head.

Technically Lincoln wasn't a republican either he was part of the "National Union Party"(which was basically the same thing, but they did a name change after he died)

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Re: Well...that's that. A major announcement.

Post by hermit-bob » Thu Nov 17, 2016 12:40 am

Fel,
I feel for you.
I don't mean that in the sappy touchy-feely way. I mean I completely understand what you are going through.
My older sister was diagnosed with an autoimmune disorder 3 years ago, and just last year suffered a work-place injury that still impedes her mobility. Without free access to healthcare she would never have been eligible and would be living out of the basement trying to pay her medical bills...or just not get treatment and slowly, painfully, die.
My younger sister, who has been doing social work to help HER community, the LGBTQ+ community (I say that, specifically, as she is openly and proudly a bisexual woman and has been since she was a freshman in highschool [14 yrs old for you non-Murricans]). She help those in need, especially the elderly and persons with mental difficulties. She even went back to school to gain her Masters of Social Work and has recieved a job offer from the company she is completing her internship with. Should half the promises made by Trump come true, she will lose her job, face jail time, and be a legal target for harassment. I won't tolerate people accosting my sister for her lifestyle, I didn't when when she was just a girl, and I won't now that she's an adult.

I, myself, should do fine in this new "Great America" as I am a straight white male between 26 and 55 years old. That doesn't explain why I am unable to get steady employment (nor have I been able to stay employed for one reason or another for more than 2 years with any given company, some of that is on me though as I had family commitments and had to relocate).

Back to the original point though. I know what you are feeling. These past two weeks are the first time since...a long time, that I have woken up with hangovers. I have a middling tolerance for alcohol. I watched the news the night of the election and even before Florida was called I started drinking. Things were not going well. I woke up one night last week from nightmares, can't remember what it was, just woke up in a cold sweat. I have not slept with out alcohol since then.

I hope that the United States of America that I grew up with, the small domestic differences, the small forgien relations changes, will hold strong. I am a pessimist, however, and I may only hope for the best, but I know I will be proven right in at least some of my fears.

May our surprises be pleasant in the coming years, your writing has kept me stable and steady on more than one occasion and through more than one disaster. Please, keep writing, even if you never post it, keep writing.
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Re: Well...that's that. A major announcement.

Post by imthejman85 » Fri Nov 18, 2016 5:30 pm

hermit-bob wrote:Fel,

My younger sister, who has been doing social work to help HER community, the LGBTQ+ community (I say that, specifically, as she is openly and proudly a bisexual woman and has been since she was a freshman in highschool [14 yrs old for you non-Murricans]). She help those in need, especially the elderly and persons with mental difficulties. She even went back to school to gain her Masters of Social Work and has recieved a job offer from the company she is completing her internship with. Should half the promises made by Trump come true, she will lose her job, face jail time, and be a legal target for harassment. I won't tolerate people accosting my sister for her lifestyle, I didn't when when she was just a girl, and I won't now that she's an adult.
Which promises did Trump make that would make your sister a legal target for harassment, make her face jail time, and lose her job exactly? I'm no heavy into politics kinda guy, but I would have thought I'd catch a snippet of that somewhere... Can ya link me to that one?
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf. -George Orwell

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Re: Well...that's that. A major announcement.

Post by calista241 » Sat Nov 19, 2016 10:49 pm

so i can't decide if i feel better or worse about what happened than i did last week.

Part of me thinks he can't possibly screw it all up in just 4 years. Part of me thinks we're all in for a wild ride.

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Re: Well...that's that. A major announcement.

Post by hermit-bob » Sat Nov 26, 2016 3:34 am

imthejman85 wrote:Which promises did Trump make that would make your sister a legal target for harassment, make her face jail time, and lose her job exactly? I'm no heavy into politics kinda guy, but I would have thought I'd catch a snippet of that somewhere... Can ya link me to that one?
Sorry about the late reply, I had a bunch of things happen at once, and now I'm back home.
Trump tweeted, then deleted that tweet like he should have so many others, his open support for the First Amendment Defence Act. The proposed bill would allow discrination for employment and service based on "one's sincerly held, personal, or religous beliefs."
Leaving aside it's blatent disregard for the First Amendment in the first place, the possibility of such an act is possible should Trump be able to select Justices for the SCOTUS that share that....I can't even call it a veiwpoint, it's just straight up bigotry.
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