Can anyone explain why everyone is upset with AZ?

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Byte Storm
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Re: Can anyone explain why everyone is upset with AZ?

Post by Byte Storm » Tue May 25, 2010 10:01 am

Social Security card suffices as Proof of Citizenship.

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Re: Can anyone explain why everyone is upset with AZ?

Post by medico69 » Wed May 26, 2010 10:01 pm

Byte Storm wrote:Social Security card suffices as Proof of Citizenship.
Not really, as mentioned before it is very easy to conterfit a SS card. Also, I took a look at my SS card it says very plainly "NOT FOR IDENTIFICATION" on the front (granted I got it when I was 12 years old).

The only problem I see with the AZ law is that it allows the local cop to enforce a FEDERAL law that the feds have not even tried to enforce, or refuse to enforce due to pressure from the companies that use ILLEGAL workers (a good example would be the LARGE farmers that raise the fruit and veggies in CA and utillize the roving groups of workers to harvest the crops). I agree that this law allows for the profiling of anyone who looks hispanic. A little used FEDERAL law that caused problems was the one that said that ID/drivers licenses must only be issued to US citizens and one of the biggest offenders of this law was TN (where it is still possible to get a DL without proof of national origin or a valid US address).

Just my 2 cents worth on this subject,
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Re: Can anyone explain why everyone is upset with AZ?

Post by Spec8472 » Thu May 27, 2010 2:20 am

So far I've stayed out of this debate.
Partly because I'm not American, and have no desire to be*.
Mostly because I hadn't heard about the issue until the forum post (I'm busy, right, I havn't read/watched any news for weeks unless someone at work mentions it)

But, I thought this was an interesting article nonetheless on CNN by Christian Lander: How we became white people


* Even though I'm a white guy from a country that's considered an ally, I won't travel to the USA. Frankly, your security and policies to foreign citizens scare the crap out of me.

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Re: Can anyone explain why everyone is upset with AZ?

Post by DigitalMaestro » Thu May 27, 2010 5:59 am

Re: Christian Lander Article:
My first thought is, "Let's get the blankets ready!" but that's just my sarcastic streak (a few light years wide) showing through.

Mr. Lander touches on an interesting point: the ethnic American. I know people whose parents/grandparents/ancestors hailed from a foreign land and who have made varying choices as to how they live here in the US. Some remember why they came here: to seek freedom in the land of opportunity. Others got popped out on American soil and expect 100% entitlement. The skin colors of some of these people might surprise you. I know a 1st generation Mexican immigrant who I respect more than many of my white 35th generation American friends. He came across the border legally, has struggled to learn the language and is currently seeking citizenship. To him and those like him, I say, "Bravo." His English is still slow and tinged with an accent, but he has adopted this land and this culture as his own. He is working to make a better life here and to become an American through and through. Oppositely, I know immigrants, 2nd generation and 10th, who want nothing more than to hail the glories of a foreign land. To them I say, "Go live in the land you love."

You may see me with a clover or a swastika, but my first loyalty is to my American heritage. I love parts of my German and Irish heritage. Who doesn't like great beer and whiskey? I am a flag waving ethnic American who remembers both where I came from and the land I hold dearest. I may hate a lot of things here, but our foundation is honorable, and I seek to uphold it.

--------

Before someone jumps down my throat about the swastika, it is a symbol far older than the holocaust. It's use has roots on multiple continents and is typically associated with victory. My bread Nazi and his white flour are just a play on words. I embrace ethnic Americans of many colors as firmly as I reject white born citizens who hate this land.


Sorry about the rant. :wink: This is an issue I care deeply about.
-DigitalMaestro

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Re: Can anyone explain why everyone is upset with AZ?

Post by Byte Storm » Thu May 27, 2010 10:04 am

Bravo Digital, bravo

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Re: Can anyone explain why everyone is upset with AZ?

Post by ANTIcarrot » Thu Jun 03, 2010 10:22 pm

Byte Storm wrote:1) Please do not confuse the fact that it is easy to apply, to the fact that it takes forever. It is a simple procedure to apply. Whether you get approved or not, that is a different story.
By that logic it's a 'simple' proceedure to become the next US president. Your chances of success on the other hand... And that's the complaint here. Not the time, or the complexity of the proceedure, but the difficulty in succeeding. And I speak from experience here. In some cituations the system is also almost designed to fleece legal workers of their money. "Come here! Invest! Spend money! You've done that? Good. Now fuck off! We just changed our mind! You have six weeks to sell your new home and get out. And we couldn't be happier you're going to loose hundreds of thousands of dollars to the US economy..." This is not too much of an exageration of how the system works.

Similar to becoming a US citizen. One option is to go through a 4 year sponsership deal. But you're screwed if your sponser dies three months before deadline. No you can't transfer to a new sponser. Right back to the start of the whole process - and your nation. You have six weeks, etc etc...
Citizen A cannot work because Illegal A wants to work here, without paying taxes, and can do so for less.
I call bullshit here. I know illegials who do pay taxes and want to be here legally, but can't because the system is run by a barely trained monkey people. (This is not a whithouse/congress related coment.)

I can't honestly say that I'm certain that Britain is any better. But the American system is practically designed to encourage illegial imigration.
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Re: Can anyone explain why everyone is upset with AZ?

Post by lapland » Fri Jun 04, 2010 3:13 am

Which is why we need a full overhall of our imigration policies. Why do we need a sponsor? Millions came over without them and were successful. Our country can support many more imigrants. We just need them to come to small communities, instead of our metropolitan locations. The small communities of our country are dieing from mass exodus, while large communities are inundated.

I knew someone from Bermuda that spent years on a waiting list to get in. Last I knew he was living in Texas. We should be excited about imigration and visits from those foreign to our soil. I don't even mind states deciding who can and who can't get drivers licenses, as long as they CAN speak english, even if broken, and the license has some indication of citizenship status.
,
Legally, Arizona has RESTRICTED their police officers instead of adding racial profiling. According to some lawyers, and I am not one, the US Supreme Court has said any police officer has the right to demand proof of citizenship or legal status of anyone for any reason in the US. Arizona says they have to already have initiated a legal contact, that is not suppose to be racially motivated AND they have to have a reasonable expectation that the person is illigally here. Not being able to speak English or not being able to present any proof of ID could be reasonable cause.

I think Fels idea of checking everyones status has merrit anyway if combined with Arizonas requirement to already have legal contact before demanding proof. An employer is suppose to get two proofs of ID before they can hire you, and have a valid social security number. The local law office should have a way to verify the IDs presented. I remember helping a friend run a BBS, before the days of the internet. He had an adult side that he verified IDs by calling them into the local police department. It wasn't as sucure as it should be today, but it was good for then, and could be done today for employment. This would also catch deadbeat parents, many wanted felons, and others who are trying to hide in the system, as well as curb hiring of illigals.

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Re: Can anyone explain why everyone is upset with AZ?

Post by Super C » Fri Jun 04, 2010 5:08 am

>sigh< I can't believe I'm getting sucked into this...

What irks me is that this law is going after the wrong people. Until companies STOP HIRING CHEAP FOREIGN LABOR, this will not change. End of story. Period. No more! Grah!!! I think last I checked the MAXIMUM fine for hiring undocumented workers was 10k per occurrence. NOT per undocumented employee. Also these companies don't get 'raided' but once every few years or so. Even if they get fined, because of the wage difference the bottom line makes it worth it to them. Start fining them 10k per employee, do unannounced check ups every 2-3 months, charge them the deportation fees and require two VALID forms of ID from their employees and the undocumented workers will have NO REASON to be here. Pay rates will HAVE to go up because no American in their right mind will work washing dishes 40 hours a week for minimum wage. I know I wouldn't.

You can't have a NO VACANCY sign right next to a NOW HIRING sign. It sends mixed messages, especially to people that can't speak the language. :P

Note that this is coming from a naturalized (Hispanic) citizen. If I were to be in AZ and for whatever reason I lost my wallet (usually after a night of heavy drinking :oops: ), I'm screwed! This law was aimed at Hispanics being here illegally. Paint it any way you want it but they are NOT going to stop a Norwegian here on Spring break that gets caught drunk in public. They WILL stop the Hispanic looking fellow going 5 miles under the speed limit in an older car. This is BLATANT RACIAL PROFILING. The only way around this (and the only way this legally makes any sense) is to require EVERYONE to have proof of citizenship, like fel stated earlier. That way the law DOES do EXACTLY what it states: uncover illegal aliens REGARDLESS of what country they hail from. (Damn Australians... :P)

Bottom line is even if I were in glasses with a Metallica shirt and a laptop I still feel I'd be stopped and ask for proof of citizenship. Sucks. :?

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Re: Can anyone explain why everyone is upset with AZ?

Post by lapland » Fri Jun 04, 2010 11:54 am

Why would you be "screwed"? You obviously can speek english and you apparently have a legal id such as a state issued drivers license, which any officer in the country can verify. Even if it's not on your person, you can give the information on it, with name, address, etc so there is no reason to believe you would have any problems. Don't let the popular media scare you into thinking this law gives AZ police more power to search and detain you. It actually gives them less power. Currently any officer can demand proof of citizenship of anyone at any time, unless they are in AZ were they have to have reasonable suspecian after a legal stop, that is codeified as non racially motivated.

You are of course absolutely correct in requireing businesses to verify employment status. But it's not only one sided. All sides must be curtailed. Make businesses more accountable having both businesses and police utilized to verify information, find and deport illegals, build a fence to keep illigals out and increase and modernize legal immigration, and any other ideas that could help.

We have enough crime with legal residence. Many, or perhaps most, illegal immigrants want a good life for themselves, but there are those who simply want to ply their trade of illegal activities and this is causing more problems because we can't tell who they are and where they are. Maybe we should put a traking chip in any illegal immigrant caught in the country a second time. That may scare them enough not to do it again, and many will refuse to come again. Washington state is talking about similar laws to AZ because they have people that they deported after stopping them for some crime and the person has returned many many times to continue their criminal activities. We need to do more then just deport illegal immigrants who are violating our laws.

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Re: Can anyone explain why everyone is upset with AZ?

Post by Super C » Sat Jun 05, 2010 1:53 am

It's not the popular media that scares me. It's past experience. I've been pulled over SEVERAL times for nothing more than looking the part. Note that this was in another state, several years ago. Of course I can speak the language and have all documentation as I feel everyone should. The problem I have is that I wasn't pulled over for speeding/broken tail light/whatever. I was profiled. Until you fall into a category that's profiled, you'll never never know how that feels. Hopefully, you never will. It's embharrasing, humiliating, and you feel violated/indignant.

Quote: unless they are in AZ were they have to have reasonable suspecian after a legal stop

I have NO problem with this, as long as it's EVERYONE and ANYONE they stop.

As for the crime bit, EVERY culture has bad apples. Not just the Hispanics. Go up to NYC in the 50's you would think the same of the Italian families. Hell, go to Compton in LA today and it's African Americans. That doesn't make them all bad.

As for the repeat offenders, not sure what you could do about that. If they're intent on coming back, they're coming back. Not sure about the legality of putting a gps tracker on someone from another country. I'm not against that actually, just curious as to how that'd work. About the only thing that could be done is incarcerate them here (guantanamo?) or keep deporting them. Both of which cost money.

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Re: Can anyone explain why everyone is upset with AZ?

Post by medico69 » Sun Jun 06, 2010 1:13 am

Super C wrote:As for the repeat offenders, not sure what you could do about that. If they're intent on coming back, they're coming back. Not sure about the legality of putting a gps tracker on someone from another country. I'm not against that actually, just curious as to how that'd work. About the only thing that could be done is incarcerate them here (guantanamo?) or keep deporting them. Both of which cost money.
1st time = deport
2nd time = tracker and deport
3rd time = remove tracker and body :twisted: Why spend more money on them?
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Re: Can anyone explain why everyone is upset with AZ?

Post by Fawks » Tue Jun 08, 2010 6:23 am

Super C wrote:>sigh< I can't believe I'm getting sucked into this...

Note that this is coming from a naturalized (Hispanic) citizen. If I were to be in AZ and for whatever reason I lost my wallet (usually after a night of heavy drinking :oops: ),
Easy remedy for that problem. Quit drinking. :P
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Re: Can anyone explain why everyone is upset with AZ?

Post by Hearly » Fri Jun 18, 2010 8:45 pm

LOL, another waste of our tax dollars, the fed gov't is gonna sue AZ over it.. LOL...

Wonders if the states can sue the Fed Gov't with Negligence over there handling of what is supposed to be a "federal" issue and claim the cash they spend on public services provided to Illegal's within the US and get the money back...

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Re: Can anyone explain why everyone is upset with AZ?

Post by Phantom » Tue Jun 22, 2010 11:36 am

too late <G> how they have another to worry about as well

Fremont Nebraska--- Approves Illegal Immigration Measure.... Ordinance Bans The Hiring Of, or Renting To Illegal Immigrants

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37834013/ns/us_news/

The Fremont measure will require would-be renters to apply for a license from the city.
Officials must refuse to issue a license to applicants found to be in the country illegally.
The ordinance also requires businesses to use the federal E-Verify database to ensure employees are allowed to work.
-
At its core the ordinance attempts to do two things.
Before landlords can rent any home to a person in Fremont Nebraska that person must show a certificate obtained
from the city.
In order to get the certificate the person will have to prove they are in the United States legally.

The ordinance also requires Fremont employers to verify the legal residency status of people they hire.

Supporters said they wanted the city to act because the Federal Government has failed to enforce immigration laws
and because it has failed to secure the nation's borders.




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