Can anyone explain why everyone is upset with AZ?

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Hearly
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Can anyone explain why everyone is upset with AZ?

Post by Hearly » Thu May 20, 2010 6:09 pm

ok, yes I know this is kinda touching a no-no subject on the boards (politics) but I really don't understand why all the BS about the law..

I've actually read the law and I don't see how it is racist.

I live in FL and if a cop pulls me over he asks me for my "papers" and he can also ask anyone else in the car for there "papers" (driver's License or state ID card.)

If I can't produce them I could either be arrested or given another ticket for not having proper identification on me, (granted this doesn't happen that often)

I mean we got the Fed government talking (for years) about a national ID card (which they seem to miss that we already have one with Social Security numbers)




(Ok so I'm bored waiting for Fel to post something)

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Re: Can anyone explain why everyone is upset with AZ?

Post by Byte Storm » Thu May 20, 2010 6:43 pm

I can't see any reason beyond idiocy that someone would be upset with the state for this. The only people it affects in a negative way are those that aren't legally supposed to be here.

You can claim profiling all you want, but lets face it, I don't believe there are going to be very many illegal German immigrants in AZ, so get over it.

People want something done about immigration, but some don't want to kick the illegals out, they want to basically hand them citizenship. I personally have no problem with any amount of immigration, as long as it is done in a legal manner. It isn't that hard to get a work visa, or a visa for going to school.

The real problem boils down to the people that come here illegally, taking cash only jobs, and not paying taxes. These people are screwing the rest of the country over, as taxes go to the public services that we need (among quite a few other things). The expenses for these scale with the amount of people they need to serve. The more people that come here, and do not pay taxes, the less and less we have to provide adequate public services.

We need to find the illegals, and give them the chance to become legal. If they do not wish to do so, then boot them out.

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Hearly
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Re: Can anyone explain why everyone is upset with AZ?

Post by Hearly » Thu May 20, 2010 7:15 pm

But it's also kinda funny watching LA and AZ fight, I mean I'd love to see AZ turn the power off to LA..

I mean LA wants to boycott them, well lets do a total boycott and not be selective....

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Re: Can anyone explain why everyone is upset with AZ?

Post by NSC » Thu May 20, 2010 7:41 pm

We could also go after the companies that employ illegal immigrants and fine them heavily for doing so.

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Hearly
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Re: Can anyone explain why everyone is upset with AZ?

Post by Hearly » Thu May 20, 2010 7:51 pm

NSC wrote:We could also go after the companies that employ illegal immigrants and fine them heavily for doing so.

Thought they already had laws dealing with this?

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Re: Can anyone explain why everyone is upset with AZ?

Post by Isengrim » Thu May 20, 2010 8:06 pm

They've got laws punishing companies that employ illegals. Part of the problem is that companies have worked to keep the penalties low. Another part of the problem is that it's too damn expensive to raid all the companies that might be employing illegals.

As for why are people upset with AZ... the question is whether the clause forbidding racial profiling is "real". Basically is this a "don't go using racial profiling, and go kick those dirty hispanics out" sort of thing or not. This also ties into current discrimination problems for folks that look hispanic, which really is something of a problem. I know a little about that because I've been pulled over by cops thinking I'm an illegal. Usually they look at my driver's licence see the Irish last name, and let me go, but I've been pulled over for being tan with dark hair.

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Re: Can anyone explain why everyone is upset with AZ?

Post by Hearly » Thu May 20, 2010 8:14 pm

Isengrim wrote:They've got laws punishing companies that employ illegals. Part of the problem is that companies have worked to keep the penalties low. Another part of the problem is that it's too damn expensive to raid all the companies that might be employing illegals.

As for why are people upset with AZ... the question is whether the clause forbidding racial profiling is "real". Basically is this a "don't go using racial profiling, and go kick those dirty hispanics out" sort of thing or not. This also ties into current discrimination problems for folks that look hispanic, which really is something of a problem. I know a little about that because I've been pulled over by cops thinking I'm an illegal. Usually they look at my driver's licence see the Irish last name, and let me go, but I've been pulled over for being tan with dark hair.
I already thought it was a big no-no for cops to "racial" profile people...

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Re: Can anyone explain why everyone is upset with AZ?

Post by Phantom » Fri May 21, 2010 4:48 am

Hearly wrote:ok, yes I know this is kinda touching a no-no subject on the boards (politics) but I really don't understand why all the BS about the law..

I've actually read the law and I don't see how it is racist.

I live in FL and if a cop pulls me over he asks me for my "papers" and he can also ask anyone else in the car for there "papers" (driver's License or state ID card.)

If I can't produce them I could either be arrested or given another ticket for not having proper identification on me, (granted this doesn't happen that often)

I mean we got the Fed government talking (for years) about a national ID card (which they seem to miss that we already have one with Social Security numbers)




(Ok so I'm bored waiting for Fel to post something)
the Problem with Social Security cards per-sey is they have no picture and are generaly just a paper card......
that and anyone can get one true it's harder now but still.

also I just saw the other day ..AZ may not be to only one for long ....Nebraska (where i live) is talking about doing the same
thing in the next year.

http://www.wowt.com/news/headlines/94155339.html
Nebraska To Consider Immigration Law Similar To Arizona

.......

The uproar over a new, immigration-related law in Arizona could resound in Nebraska next year.

State Senator Charlie Janssen of Fremont says he plans to introduce a similar bill in the Nebraska Legislature the next session, which
begins in January.

Arizona's bill requires police enforcing another law to verify a person's immigration status if there's "reasonable" suspicion the person is in the U.S. illegally.

Supporters say it's a fair way to curb illegal immigration, while opponents say it will cause racial profiling.

Janssen has already drafted a Nebraska bill, but he says it could be changed based on experiences Arizona has with its new law.
He says crafting such a law so it can be enforced without racial profiling is one of the biggest hurdles.
Not that i think its a bad thing ...
I just think about all those who've done it legaly over the years ....
why could they do it and so many other haven't or don't



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Re: Can anyone explain why everyone is upset with AZ?

Post by afrigeek » Fri May 21, 2010 8:48 am

OK. From a foreigner's perspective:

I have visited the USA a couple of times. I can therefore say a few things:

1. To the person who said getting a work permit and study visa are easy... you must be living in another world. They are extremely difficult and even when you have all the paper work right, it can take months to actually get it processed. Where I come from, even with all your paper work right and proof that you have no intention of staying in the US illegally after your visit, I have known many of my friends denied visas and there is NO right of appeal. You can only apply again after 6 months and you will still face the same official who denied you the visa in the first place so thats a waste of time. I have had people who were coming for workshops with reputable organisations that wrote and committed to paying all expenses associated with the trip and still they got denied.

2. Each time I have come, I have been stopped for a supposedly "random" security check. I am let wondering how random this actually is or whether I was looked at, and clearly looked foreign thus I was targeted.

3. Lets face it, there is no realistic way for the police to implement this law without racial profiling. This will make people of Hispanic origin second class citizens. I think it would be reasonable to say that anyone stopped for another offence SHOULD be checked for their immigration status, BUT not allow the police to randomly stop people to check their immigration status as there is no reasonable way to do it without targeting a certain segment of the population which does make it discriminatory imho.

4. One of the things that most don't want to admit is that actually while illegal immigration has some problems it causes, for the economy the net total is a benefit. They come in and do the jobs that most locals will not do, at a wage that is low. This allows the companies to remain competitive with others in countries like India and China where labour costs are low. It is still better to do this than have the companies export their operations to other countries just to remain competitive. Afterall you rarely find illegal immigrants in white collar jobs. So at least the company remains in the US, employing Americans for most of their jobs and quietly employing illegals as grunts to do the menial tasks. For those who think this is exploitation: Remember, no one is forcing the illegals to do this work, they are not being held against their will and can quit anytime and return to their countries.

Fact of the matter is that one of the dangers that Western Countries are facing is an ageing populations and lower birth rates. Without something being done to address this imbalance, there won't be enough people contributing to the economy to support the older people. Which is why despite the loud public talk, immigration is quietly encouraged. On the otehr hand, the reverse is true for the 2nd and 3rd World countries. Because they have low life expectancy, their population is made up of mainly younger people with less older people and their birth rates are soaring.
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Re: Can anyone explain why everyone is upset with AZ?

Post by Byte Storm » Fri May 21, 2010 10:26 am

1) Please do not confuse the fact that it is easy to apply, to the fact that it takes forever. It is a simple procedure to apply. Whether you get approved or not, that is a different story.

2) True, the random security check isn't really that random, they check most people, but there really is no profiling there.

3) As I asked before, how many of these Illegal immigrants (in that state at least) are not Hispanic in origin? If a race of people is the major offender of a specific law, racial profiling is probably inevitable.

4) No. Most people want to work, as it is the only way to make money. I cannot see this net gain of which you speak. Citizen A cannot work because Illegal A wants to work here, without paying taxes, and can do so for less. Citizen A now has to hunt for a job, most of which do not exist right now. During this time, they themselves are not paying taxes (mostly), and they are also poor consumers, which is less revenue for companies. The jobs the illegals take are low-paying jobs to begin with, so the gain there is not that much. It isn't like it's a job that pays citizens 40k a year, that the illegal is doing for 10k. It's 20k jobs being done for 15k, with less taxes paid because its handled in cash and not tracked. Not much of a gain.

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Re: Can anyone explain why everyone is upset with AZ?

Post by Isengrim » Fri May 21, 2010 6:19 pm

Hearly, just because it's illegal doesn't mean cops won't do it. The question is whether, and how, they'll be punished for profiling, what do their superiors think of it, how acceptable is it in their social situations.

Relations between different groups in a country tend to be complicated with legislation being the single least important part of the relationship. Think of the tensions between ethinic Han Chinese with Uighars and Tibetans in China, or the relations between Irish, English, Scotish, and Welsh in Great Britain.

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Re: Can anyone explain why everyone is upset with AZ?

Post by Fel » Sat May 22, 2010 12:18 am

While I'm not against a state having the right to enforce both its own laws and Federal laws, I don't like the Arizona law for one simple reason: it places discretion to enforce the law in the hands of the police.

The past has proven that these kinds of "discretionary" laws that leave a very murky situation (is that guy illegal?) up to the judgment of a police officer don't work. You will inevitably get more and more extrapolated concepts of discretion, and more and more instances of police going out of their way to induce "legal contact" in order to pursue someone's immigration status.

Think I'm wrong? Go research the drug suspicion auto impounding laws in Louisiana in the 90's. It was a good idea that the police twisted into a criminal fraud ring where they would pull anyone over in a nice car and then impound their cars on "suspicion of drug activity," which forced the car's owner to literally spend thousands of dollars that went right into the parish's coffers in order to get his car back.

And this is just one example of many types of discretionary laws.

No law should rely on a police officer's discretion as to when and how he feels like enforcing a law. It invariably ends up becoming abused, either by cops with chips on their shoulders or scoundrels who twist such laws to enrich themselves at the harm of the victims those laws were never intended to affect.

If AZ wants a law like this, then it should say this: any time you are pulled over, NO MATTER WHO YOU ARE, you must prove citizenship. That would be fair and legal, for it removes any sort of police discretion from the mix.
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Re: Can anyone explain why everyone is upset with AZ?

Post by kd7mvs » Sat May 22, 2010 12:47 am

If all that is needed to be checked is "reasonable cause", not defined in any other way, racial profiling is what will happen unless they just decide to pull over every x person to check ID. In Arizona, the majority of illegals are Hispanic. Also in Arizona, some of the oldest families in the state are Hispanic, families that have been living there since it was part of Mexico, families who rightly get upset if they're getting pulled over and joe whitebread who just moved down from NY is being ignored, when the cops doing the profiling may not be from Arizona themselves.

And unless national laws are passed making it mandatory to carry ID outside of your home, you're going to have folks who don't have any ID who are citizens. I got a social security card at 15, because it was required to open a bank account. I got a state ID card at 19, because I'd been asked for ID by a cop at 1:00am outside the Salem, OR greyhound station, where I was waiting for a bus, the station being closed, and the best I had was a library card, which didn't really do much for proving I was old enough the curfew didn't apply; yes, his checking for ID was profiling, I looked to be underage after curfew. I got my drivers license at 27, right before I went to grad school. I still have that same social security card, from 1976, and it's still used for certain types of ID, which is a joke, my signature looks nothing like it did at 15.

Each state uses a different format for their ID/drivers licenses, and while the cops usually know what the neighboring states cards look like, an Oregon cop has no clue about an Illinois license.

Profiling gets a bad name because it results in certain groups of innocents, legals, being hassled far more frequently than other groups of innocents. Those who are innocent yet fit the visual profile get tired of it.

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Re: Can anyone explain why everyone is upset with AZ?

Post by DigitalMaestro » Sat May 22, 2010 1:41 am

I'm on board with checking the citizenship of anyone who is confronted for a violation of another law. I don't want some policeman to get reminiscent about the SS and randomly stop anyone, but I think that citizenship checks should be part of arrest bookings and any other violation that creates paperwork. It can't be that hard to make a database that has a list of MOST of the citizens in the US to run an initial check against...o wait, this is the country who's TSA held back a senator because his name was the same as a man on the no fly list...

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Re: Can anyone explain why everyone is upset with AZ?

Post by rphilip » Tue May 25, 2010 2:11 am

The issue as I understand it is that unless you are driving you do not have to give a cop your drivers license or other identity documents with out their having probable cause.

This law allow them to stop you and require you to prove your immigration status. It is expected to be discriminatory against Hispanic American citizens as they are expected to be stopped with higher frequency than whites.

Also do you actually carry proof of immigration status? For native born US citizens the most common documents for this would be either your passport or birth certificate.

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