Jenna

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Kacoo
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Jenna

Post by Kacoo »

Im curious, Ive just finished reading Tarrins Druidic training in axe of the dwarven king and was wondering that if jenna had druidic talent comparable to say Thean or Haley she would be as strong as Tarrin in regards to sorcery because she is already close even tho she has no mentioned drudic talent so with druidic talent her power would increase to a greater degree.
i realize its pretty difficult to decide so conjecture would be good
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Greymist
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Re: Jenna

Post by Greymist »

I can't remember which book it was mentioned in, but you may recall that if non-immortals learn use/learn two forms of magic they will be inflicted with insanity by the gods of the universe (I'm going to ignore the small form of priest magic which sorcerers have, as that is a bit of cheating on behalf of Niami)

Because of that, I'm going to guess that since Jenna is not a TRUE immortal, the gods of the universe wouldn't allow her to be born with two forms of natural magic, seeing as that all but guarantees that she will be made insane.
Spec8472
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Re: Jenna

Post by Spec8472 »

Greymist wrote:I'm going to ignore the small form of priest magic which sorcerers have, as that is a bit of cheating on behalf of Niami

It was actually all explained (hand-waved, if you like) in one of the books - Sorcerers aren't mortals. I forget the actual details - but iirc it was only a certain level of sorcerer that involved some kind of transformation.
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Greymist
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Re: Jenna

Post by Greymist »

Spec8472 wrote:
Greymist wrote:I'm going to ignore the small form of priest magic which sorcerers have, as that is a bit of cheating on behalf of Niami
It was actually all explained (hand-waved, if you like) in one of the books - Sorcerers aren't mortals. I forget the actual details - but iirc it was only a certain level of sorcerer that involved some kind of transformation.
I should have said it was described as cheating in the book (I'm sure that word was used, it was used a lot when it came to Niami), because sorcerers don't have full access to priest magic and I'm sure they're described as not being true immortals.

Edit:
Windows Grep to the rescue. The Questing Game (Book 2), Chapter 19:

"The Oath," she replied simply. "The oath of obedience to the Goddess, something that an Initiate does not undertake. It seals the Sorcerer to the Goddess, and in that oath of obedience, he gains the right to call on the Goddess' power directly. Any Sorcerer can use Sorcery, but only those who take the Oath can call on the Goddess for additional aid."

and

The agelessness of the katzh-dashi was the reason that they had access to priest magic, for it was a law set forth by Ayise Herself that no mortal could wield more than one order of magic. The Goddess cheated a bit by making her children a little bit more than mortal, yet not truly immortal.

I'm still of course making an assumption that the gods wouldn't allow one mortal to be born with two forms of natural magic, but it makes sense (unless they're quite cruel and want that person to become insane by default).
TLGG
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Re: Jenna

Post by TLGG »

If I remember right, since they're only a bit different, they only gain access to the kind of priest magic that is granted automaticly by the God. No, wait, wasn't it the magic that didn't require a pendant?
Kacoo
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Re: Jenna

Post by Kacoo »

mmm good point i thought that the immortality granted by joining the sorcerers invalidated the stricture by Ayise fully rather than only to a minor effect because i thought in Weavespinner Tarrin still has druidic talent even when he has his were nature stripped i may be wrong and have interpreted it wrong i haven't read weavespinner for a bout 5 months
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Re: Jenna

Post by SYED »

apart from a few spells, their own power can mimic any thing the priest magic can do. I wonder why they never attempt to learn wizard magic as well.

I wonder we know the knights potentially have power, the paladin spells, but we never heard of rangers having magic. Also i wonder if there was an equivalent of bardic magic. Or since there are 4 orders of magic, there are 4 semi orders of magic, knights for priest magic, leaving 3 unknown. Could niami have her own knights with powers, could her children be knights?

I wonder why elves and humans were the only sorcerers, could the gnomes, hobbits or dwarfs have the potential? Possibly some of the good goblin kin.
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physicalard
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Re: Jenna

Post by physicalard »

If I remember correctly when he was returned to being a human, he lost his ability to use druidic magic. He regained it while being changed by tainted memory potion, and due to his more fully imbracing the all mid turning, became a much more powerful druid.
Kacoo
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Re: Jenna

Post by Kacoo »

@Syed ye fel wrote that knights could cast priest magic in the age of power

but i dont think there are any good goblin kind left i know the originals were just cultured and like the humans and elves but i think that fel had eliminated any of those aspects of their race when he made offshoots and killed the originals off

physicalard ill have to read the first 100 or so pages of weavespinner to find out but you are probably right in that regard
Belgarion213
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Re: Jenna

Post by Belgarion213 »

I'm going to point a few things out.

Its perfectly possible to be born more than one kind of POTENTIAL magic. While a mortal trying to use two kinds of magic will be made insane, other than Niamia's cheating, its not prohibitive. Remember in Axe of the Dwarven king, when magic was fully restored Priests and Wizards were going around and teaching people small simple spells to 'lock them into' their path. While true Druidic and Sorcery are 'born' talents, but you can still lock yourself away from one or the other by practicing the other.

Jenna might very well have Druidic potential...its just she's a Sorceress, and not a true immortal like Tarrin is (Though come to think of it, did we ever hear of the changes in the Da'Shar, Sul'kun transformation?), so if she was to try to learn druidic stuff she would go insane. (The minor priest magic that a Sorcerer gets isn't very big, and its 'smallness' is what allows Niamia to give it. Druidic Power is 'not' small in the least. Even without things like 2 step 'spell's and above, the unlimited power of the All probably means your not going to be getting any druidic power without being a true immortal without going insane or dying.

THAT SAID, if Jenna was made 'truly immortal' I fully expect her to have some level of Druidic power, though unless she was made a Were-creature probably not to the level that Tarrin has...though Tarrin kind of breaks the rules by his v ery nature.
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Fel
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Re: Jenna

Post by Fel »

Greymist wrote:
Spec8472 wrote:
Greymist wrote:I'm going to ignore the small form of priest magic which sorcerers have, as that is a bit of cheating on behalf of Niami
It was actually all explained (hand-waved, if you like) in one of the books - Sorcerers aren't mortals. I forget the actual details - but iirc it was only a certain level of sorcerer that involved some kind of transformation.
I should have said it was described as cheating in the book (I'm sure that word was used, it was used a lot when it came to Niami), because sorcerers don't have full access to priest magic and I'm sure they're described as not being true immortals.

Edit:
Windows Grep to the rescue. The Questing Game (Book 2), Chapter 19:

"The Oath," she replied simply. "The oath of obedience to the Goddess, something that an Initiate does not undertake. It seals the Sorcerer to the Goddess, and in that oath of obedience, he gains the right to call on the Goddess' power directly. Any Sorcerer can use Sorcery, but only those who take the Oath can call on the Goddess for additional aid."

and

The agelessness of the katzh-dashi was the reason that they had access to priest magic, for it was a law set forth by Ayise Herself that no mortal could wield more than one order of magic. The Goddess cheated a bit by making her children a little bit more than mortal, yet not truly immortal.

I'm still of course making an assumption that the gods wouldn't allow one mortal to be born with two forms of natural magic, but it makes sense (unless they're quite cruel and want that person to become insane by default).
Mortals in Sennadar are born with more than one aptitude in magic all the time, it's just not all innate. Someone born with natural aptitude in Sorcery or Druidic magic COULD accidentally go down the wrong path if they learn Wizardry or Priest magic first, becoming sealed to that order of magic. The insanity curse usually doesn't take effect unless someone REALLY tries to learn two orders of magic. At first they simply can't do it, but if they persist too long, Ayise strikes them down before they figure it out.

Tarrin Kael is a pretty good example of WHY the gods don't allow mortals to run around with access to more than one order of magic.

There are exceptions to this rule. The stricture only applies to mortals...well, Were-kin aren't exactly mortal. Like the katzh-dashi, they are ageless. They live until something kills them, which makes them something not entirely mortal. But unlike katzh-dashi, Were-kin, particularly Were-cats, can transcend the stricture. The reason for this is because their instincts prevent them from becoming the kinds of problems the gods don't want running around, some super-powered magical juggernaut bent on world domination that would require Niami or Ayise to send their magicians out to deal with the problem (ala Stragos Bane). A mortal that could find a way to become "immortal," or to transcend their own mortal status, could also slip around the edges of this stricture. Someone turning themselves into a lich could theoretically do it, but they'd run into some serious problems if they did. Druidic magic wouldn't work for an undead (the magic of life), and Niami wouldn't grant her power to someone who did THAT, so said lich would really only have the option to learn Priest magic...if he could find an order that would accept someone like a lich into their ranks.

This is how Niami does it. The Oath seals a Sorcerer to Niami as a katzh-dashi, making them something not entirely mortal. And as such, they can access a second order of magic on a very limited basis.

The priest magic the katzh-dashi use is very minor and very limited, restricted mainly to functions of a priest that they need to be able to do but can't do with Sorcery. Its main use is in giving blessings, consecrating items and areas, and the like...spells that a Priest would need to cast to do his job as a Priest caring for the faithful. This Priest magic ia restricted to those spells any priest can cast without a symbol of his god, very minor magic, and it also can't be anything for which there's a spell of Sorcery that does the job. And it doesn't matter if the Sorcerer has access to the spheres to cast the spell or not. The spell is there, the limitation is due to the Sorcerer, not the magic. If he doesn't have access to the sphere to do the magic, he's gonna be asking someone else to cast it for him.

And I'm surprised I still remember all that.
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SYED
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Re: Jenna

Post by SYED »

I wonder if something similar could be done for wizardry, instead of allowed to bend the rules for priest magic, they are able to get wizard spells. This would follow the same rules as priest magic, only spells that have no equivalent versions available for sorcerers. Sorcerers have 7 spheres, the 4 element, divine, mind and i think unity. When the system was established, the art of wizardry had yeet been introduced, so i wonder if one or two spheres could be added, one purly for wizards,, known as arcane sphere, or two, one for each energy plane, positiive and negative.
If the weave can be accessed via the All, can the All be touched through the weave? If so, the a similar arrangement could be done for druidic magic. Could there be a sphere for the All, so the nature sphere? That way there would be a sui'kin for each sphere, and more than the original seven towers. We know the presence of additional sui'kin means the the weave is enhanced, so could the new additions to the group allow for the weave and magic it self to be enhanced?
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Belgarion213
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Re: Jenna

Post by Belgarion213 »

The weave CAN be touched Through the All, (Tarrin does it when His were-cat mother (Forget her name, the super old Were-cat super druid) blocks it of, he reaches through the cat, to the all and uses it to get to the weave.

The Seven Sphere's of Sennedar are Earth, Air, Water, Fire, Mind, Divine and Convulance/Unity (I spelled those wrong).

Wizard magic, in Sennedar at least (not sure about other worlds) draws from the Positive energy plane, or negative energy plane.

Elementalists, like that boy, Jarl was it? They drew directly from elemental plane's (He was a Water Elementilist).

I doubt sorcerers are going to get 'new sphere's, the sphere's are literally parts of the weaves, you can't 'add' sphere's. That said, all wizard magic travels through the Weave. Its why Sorcerers can cut people of from magic (with Druids able to cut Sorcerers off). More, a Sorcerer doesn't really 'need' to be able to duplicate Sorcerer spells. A Sorcerer might need priest magic to consecrate the ground of a new house etc, making it sacred to Niami. Most people don't really 'need' to be able to do most things a wizard can do (Sorcerers do well enough on their own. The things a wizard can do are things like transmuting themselves (A sorcerers power is physical so he can't transmute himself without effecting his ability to channel), or summon Demon'. Most everything else a sorcerer can duplicate to some degree or another.

Similarly, you can't have a 'All' Sphere. It doesn't make sense. The Weave is a subset of the All. The All is reaching into the energy of of the mother of the gods, literally unlimited power. The weave is a subset of that. What your describing would be like 'Can we have a new building in my apartment building contains new york'. More, there are now 10 Sui'Kun. (Seven for each part of the weave, and 'three spare so a breaking doesn't re-occur'. The Spare being Tarrin, Spyder and I believe Jasana.
SYED
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Re: Jenna

Post by SYED »

WHen the weave was diminished, the power of druids were diminished as well. All magical power flows through the weave, and druid magic is still magic. If they were seperate to the weave, the diminishing would have no effect?
Druid magic is partially a gift that is passed through families, so what happens when druids have families with sorcerers? The two powers do work well, tarrin has his power in each style improved due to the other. SAy such a hybrid child first learns to be a sorcerer, then once they have taken the oath, free to learn druidic magic, as they no longer strictly mortal.

Before there was 7 sui'kin, which established the full weave, they are so integral to it, that their loss shattered it. SO it stands to reason for there to be additonal sui'kin, the weave has the potential to be effected. I am still hoping for another sphere for druid magic, something like nature/beast sphere. There are spheres for the 4 elemental plane, so why not one for each of the negative and positive planes of wizardry. When the weave first came to be, there was no wizardry, so no need to account for it specificly, but with the addition of extra sui'kin, there may be change.
Does it seem strange there are seven sui'kin and seven sphere? THe birth of the seven sui'kin. fully restored the weave, the seventh sphere, unity, allowing the other spheres to touch each other.
Sorcerers became elementalists with out the weave, so why not the weave itself change and grow.

if a druid or a sorcerer accidently cast priest magic, Could they become full priests of naomi or ayise? so still able to serve just in a different capacity. It makes sense that there are accidents involving magic.
When naomi removed magic from the world, did druids still have magic?
if sorcery is part of biology, then say use wizardry to self transmutate, then return, all it means, that they wont be able to use sorcery while changed.
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Belgarion213
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Re: Jenna

Post by Belgarion213 »

Druidic Magic doesn't go through the weave, to my knowledge. However The diminishing of the weave in the breaking probably had Aylase limit their power.

The priests of Niami are the Sorceress's. Niami IS the weave. I suppose you COULD potentailly be able to become a full priest of Niami...though whether she would give you priest magic is another matter entirely. Her Priests and her children are the Sorcerers. She gets her power from the Sorcerers, nobody else really 'matters' in the power of a Elder Diety like her.

Remember also the 'limits' of magic. Its set up, quiet deliberately, so that each 'magic user order' on Sennedar can't do EVERYTHING (Fel's mention that Tarrin Keel is the result if you go around that is a good point). You can't have a beast sphere, because that's Druids area. (Also it ties into the mind sphere. A sorcerer can't understand the mind of a beast, so they are slightly limited in their control of animals/other race.)

There are now 10 Sui'Kun, seven who represent 1/7 of the weave, and then three apart. Spyder, Tarrin and Jasana. While they probably make magic stronger, I doubt they are going to be adding entire new sphere's of magic. What you MIGHT see, juding by the end of Demon's Bane, is the introduction of PSICONCIS into Sennedar. Spyder and Tarrin both have that power, but how it would tie into the orders of magic by Niami and Ayase's laws is up for debate.

Remember
Wizards draw from an other dimensional source so can hurt demons, and can transmute themselves.
Priests draw from a god and can summon their god and banish Demons
Sorcerers can render priests/wizards magic-less, and can cast illusions(wizard magic is limited in that respect on Sennedar I believe...). Similarly, Their summoned Elementals like working for them because they get more power, while a Elemental will attack a Wizard/Priest/Druid.
Druids Draw from the All and can do almost anything...if they are strong enough and know how to put 'anything' into enough clear enough steps, and can render Sorcerers Powerless by cutting them from the weave.
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