Pyrosia, "open" or "closed" to non-Sennadar types?

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Not a ID
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Pyrosia, "open" or "closed" to non-Sennadar types?

Post by Not a ID » Wed Jul 04, 2018 4:09 pm

Sennadar is a "closed world" and prior to Pyrosia, was evidently the only world with Sorcerers on it, and thus the only world with a weave. But as Pyrosia has a weave thanks to Tarrin. That raises the question as to what status Pyrosia has in regards to being "open" or "closed" beyond it being something of "a backdoor" way into Sennadar?

As it was made clear that the presence of a weave strengthens ALL forms of magic on a world. Assuming Pyrosia remains open to visitors, what are the odds that sorcery is going to find its way to other worlds now, with deities on those respective worlds "helping" the process along? Tarrin has demonstrated it is possible to initiate one even on a non-prime world(as a mortal no less), so it wouldn't be completely shocking to find an Elder God(or younger for that matter) somewhere that might be game for the attempt if one of his younger gods reports back on it. Or is there a prohibition about that out there on the part of the Overgod to prevent this or is this a matter of no deity trying because "they don't like the risks?"

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Re: Pyrosia, "open" or "closed" to non-Sennadar types?

Post by Fel » Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:29 pm

That would depend on Niami.

Remember that Niami "sponsors" the Weave on Pyrosia, the Weave there is linked back to her. In a way, it allows her to extend her reach and influence into a second plane of existence, and usually that's frowned upon by Him due to the immense power of a Prime Elder God.

To put it in perspective, Niami has 10% of the power of a normal Elder god because Ayise divided her power among her and her family, and yet even at one tenth the power, she's still far more powerful than the Elder god of Pyrosia, who retains ALL the power of his plane. That's the stark difference between a normal material plane and one of the seven Primes.

The reason it was left be is because of the *ahem* relationship between Niami and the Elder God of Pyrosia. Odds are, if Niami tried to extend the Weave into another plane, the God of Gods would have something to say about it.
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Re: Pyrosia, "open" or "closed" to non-Sennadar types?

Post by Not a ID » Thu Jul 05, 2018 2:29 am

Well, in this particular case the operative part would be:
Assuming Pyrosia remains open to visitors, what are the odds that sorcery is going to find its way to other worlds now, with deities on those respective worlds "helping" the process along? Tarrin has demonstrated it is possible to initiate one even on a non-prime world(as a mortal no less), so it wouldn't be completely shocking to find an Elder God(or younger for that matter) somewhere that might be game for the attempt if one of his younger gods reports back on it.
Niami being prohibited from expanding her sphere of influence on her own initiative was more or less understood, because she's an Elder God from a Prime world. But if adding a weave to their world amps up the magic of their world(and their priests), and potentially passing along some other perks to that world's gods as their power is a reflection of the power available to their followers(younger gods)/in their realm(elder gods) it would seem to be something of a "no brainer" for at least another Deity to get curious about it and at least make the attempt for their own realm.

As to:
Fel wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:29 pm
Remember that Niami "sponsors" the Weave on Pyrosia, the Weave there is linked back to her. In a way, it allows her to extend her reach and influence into a second plane of existence, and usually that's frowned upon by Him due to the immense power of a Prime Elder God.
That wasn't completely clear from what I recall in my recent reading of the books.

Tarrin created the Weave on Pyrosia, that is clear.
He then "reached out" to Niami to allow her to "set the rules for the weave" on Pyrosia. Which also was clear.

That Niami is "an ongoing sponsor of the weave" on Pyrosia isn't quite so transparent, particularly after "Tarrin's shadow" ascended. Yes, she has a presence there, but she has "a relationship" with Tarrin that could account for that as well, meaning her presence was a matter of courtesy/respect/convenience rather than necessity.

His "reaching for Niami" could be accounted for by his having had a God's power, but only a mortal's understanding, so a Deity's knowledge was needed "to do the fine tuning" as it were. Meaning it could have been possible for "a proper Deity" to do so on their own without Niami's help.

Now as to the finer points as it pertains to Sui'kun, having sorcers, and everything else, now that could potentially require Niami to be involved at least in the initial stages, as she's the only one with those at her disposal.

But if in order to have a Weave, a world has to allow for Niami's presence to be there as well, THAT would likely explain why other Deities aren't lining up for the chance to have one. There probably aren't that many Elder Gods who are amenable to the idea of inviting the Elder God from a Prime world to come look over their shoulder for the rest of eternity.

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Re: Pyrosia, "open" or "closed" to non-Sennadar types?

Post by Kacoo » Wed Aug 01, 2018 2:20 am

As it was made clear that the presence of a weave strengthens ALL forms of magic on a world. Assuming Pyrosia remains open to visitors, what are the odds that sorcery is going to find its way to other worlds now, with deities on those respective worlds "helping" the process along? Tarrin has demonstrated it is possible to initiate one even on a non-prime world(as a mortal no less), so it wouldn't be completely shocking to find an Elder God(or younger for that matter) somewhere that might be game for the attempt if one of his younger gods reports back on it. Or is there a prohibition about that out there on the part of the Overgod to prevent this or is this a matter of no deity trying because "they don't like the risks?"
Maybe any elder god from any plane could create a weave? But the power that can be in that weave is limited by the power of the plane without outside influence eg another planes elder god(because each planes elder god has a limited reserve of power determined by their proximity to the One, and that the further out ones plane is the less viable a weave would become until the effort the elder god expends to maintain the weave becomes counter to what they could directly grant with prietst's magic.
Sennadar is a "closed world" and prior to Pyrosia, was evidently the only world with Sorcerers on it, and thus the only world with a weave. But as Pyrosia has a weave thanks to Tarrin. That raises the question as to what status Pyrosia has in regards to being "open" or "closed" beyond it being something of "a backdoor" way into Sennadar?
From what I understood from when it was mentioned(it was awhile ago) every plane must be connected to the astral(that's why Ayise couldn't close the portal at haven and why spyder had to defend it, so no plane is truly closed just hard to access) but that there is any number of ways out. But that Pyrosia by dint of not having an elder god deciding to close them has a relatively large amount of both incoming and outgoing portals.

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Re: Pyrosia, "open" or "closed" to non-Sennadar types?

Post by Greymist » Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:18 am

Fel wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:29 pm
To put it in perspective, Niami has 10% of the power of a normal Elder god because Ayise divided her power among her and her family, and yet even at one tenth the power, she's still far more powerful than the Elder god of Pyrosia, who retains ALL the power of his plane. That's the stark difference between a normal material plane and one of the seven Primes.
I was wondering about this. Did the new Elder god of Pyrosia only inherit the power of the plane, or did he retain (some of) the power which was gained during his original ascension?

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Re: Pyrosia, "open" or "closed" to non-Sennadar types?

Post by Rakshasa claw » Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:51 pm

Tarrin as a god had basically no power. He had a few nifty tricks which left him capable of being incredibly dangerous. But, mostly it was the tricksy way his mind worked that made the Mortal God dangerous. Remember, prior to him "becoming a god" he instilled all of his god powers into the Sword of Fire. So I suspect that Tarrin the Elder God of Pyrosia doesn't have much power beyond those he was granted upon ascending to being an Elder God.

Edit: He did have the ability to steal power from the Deva and Demons... but that isn't going to help an Elder God. And the God of Gods would probably object under normal circumstances if people tried to steal from the Deva.

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Re: Pyrosia, "open" or "closed" to non-Sennadar types?

Post by Greymist » Wed Aug 01, 2018 4:10 pm

Rakshasa claw wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:51 pm
Tarrin as a god had basically no power. He had a few nifty tricks which left him capable of being incredibly dangerous. But, mostly it was the tricksy way his mind worked that made the Mortal God dangerous. Remember, prior to him "becoming a god" he instilled all of his god powers into the Sword of Fire. So I suspect that Tarrin the Elder God of Pyrosia doesn't have much power beyond those he was granted upon ascending to being an Elder God.

Edit: He did have the ability to steal power from the Deva and Demons... but that isn't going to help an Elder God. And the God of Gods would probably object under normal circumstances if people tried to steal from the Deva.
I was under the impression that as a demigod, his soul still had all that power, but his body needed to be modified (by the sword, think the fight with Val's shadow) to be able express it. The limits on his power being his mortal mind, and that he only existed on the material plane.

What makes me think this, is the discussion with Ahiriya (goddess of fire) suggesting their power (on the material plane) was almost equal.

I don't know how him putting his power into the sword impacted how much power he gained when he ascended, but I am curious.

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Re: Pyrosia, "open" or "closed" to non-Sennadar types?

Post by Fel » Wed Aug 01, 2018 6:50 pm

Greymist wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:18 am
Fel wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:29 pm
To put it in perspective, Niami has 10% of the power of a normal Elder god because Ayise divided her power among her and her family, and yet even at one tenth the power, she's still far more powerful than the Elder god of Pyrosia, who retains ALL the power of his plane. That's the stark difference between a normal material plane and one of the seven Primes.
I was wondering about this. Did the new Elder god of Pyrosia only inherit the power of the plane, or did he retain (some of) the power which was gained during his original ascension?
The Elder God was just the shadow, in effect the god half of Tarrin's god soul. He has all of Tarrin's memories, but none of his mortal power.

Remember that when the bond between Dolanna and Tarrin was severed, he lost all of his powers as a god. So the Elder God half of him has no divine power originating from his time as part of Tarrin.

He DOES, however, have Tarrin's memories, so he's able to reproduce some of the clever tricks Tarrin came up with. He remembers how it was done.

All of the Elder God's power comes from the material plane he controls.
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Re: Pyrosia, "open" or "closed" to non-Sennadar types?

Post by D.F. Thompson » Sat Aug 04, 2018 1:51 am

Now that’s a scary thought an elder god that can use the same tactics that Tarrin uses
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Re: Pyrosia, "open" or "closed" to non-Sennadar types?

Post by kyli » Sun Aug 05, 2018 4:15 am

So is "Elder God Tarrin" still an being of Entropy? Because that is what would be scary.
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Re: Pyrosia, "open" or "closed" to non-Sennadar types?

Post by Fel » Sun Aug 05, 2018 5:51 am

kyli wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 4:15 am
So is "Elder God Tarrin" still an being of Entropy? Because that is what would be scary.
Yes and no.

It's the mortal Tarrin that's an Entropic, which is an aspect of being a mi'shara. All of them are, they are in effect the children of Entropy who were born to stop the universe from being locked down a single path.

They are very different from Entropic Entities. Those are creations of pure chaos that seek to unmake reality, representing the worst aspects of Entropy. Both are Entropic by nature, but they do very different things...much like both a chihuahua and a Saint Bernard are dogs, but are very different from each other.

And much as I explained up there, these two beings are separate in many ways. One of them is that the Elder God does not have Tarrin's Entropic powers. Those are the aspect of a mortal, because only mortals can be mi'shara. Only mortals can transcend the boundaries of reality to right a wrong that requires them to break the rules of the universe.

Think back to Shadow's Bane. When Tarrin died, he didn't use any Entropic abilities in the Crossroads, he relied completely on Wizard magic and the divine powers he gave himself that were empowered by Dolanna. It was only when he was resurrected by Ayise that he started manifesting Entropic ability again. As a god, he was bound by the rules that gods follow. But when he regained his mortality, he was once again freed of all bonds that forced him to obey the rules of the universe.

Where things got murky was the period of time when Tarrin was the Mortal God. In that window of time, he WAS an Entropic wielding divine power, because he was both mortal AND god. It was just lucky for everyone that at that time, he still didn't entirely understand his Entropic nature and didn't really use his Entropic powers. If he had, it might have caused Entropy to spin out a mi'shara to stop him before he broke the entire multiverse. And THAT confrontation would have been beyond cataclysmic.

But, while the Elder God represents the law and order that Entropy often opposes, he himself is, in a way, Entropic, because he and the mortal Tarrin are the same being. They live very different lives, but they are two halves of a single soul.

What happens when Tarrin dies (retires from his work for the Overgod)? Simply put, he'll join with his Elder God alter-ego, and lose his Entropic powers. He'll surrender his ability to reach beyond the rules of the universe by becoming an integral part of the rules that govern it...being an Elder God.

And given just how powerful is, that may be best for everyone. The last thing the Overgod needs is an Elder God running around that can wield all that power and can also break the rules he's supposed to follow and enforce anytime he pleases. The mortal Tarrin Kael is restricted by that very mortality, that what he tries to do very well might kill him. The Elder God would have no such restriction. And that would make things...messy. Very, very messy.
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