Some Inconsistances in Subjugation?

mbeau
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Re: Some Inconsistances in Subjugation?

Post by mbeau » Fri Feb 02, 2007 2:21 pm

If they pick someone less qualified over someone more qualified, yeah. But in this case I mentioned two people with equivalent qualifications...

And in specific reference to Jyslin trying for a position in Engineering in the Royal Navy...
Spoiler: show
“Probably even more so,” she agreed. “The Imperial military is really the only place a commoner can get any real power, because the nobles control everything else. By law, nobles can’t hold high command positions in the Imperial arm of the military, so most of them don’t even bother enlisting there. It prevents nasty betrayals if a noble goes rogue, so they can’t have people in positions in the Royal arm of the military to disrupt things. They have their own private armies and navies, and that’s where they usually end up doing their commanding. But the Royal Navy and the Royal Marines are commanded by commoners. That’s how my aunt came to be a General.”

“Couldn’t she pull strings to get you into engineering?”

She shrugged. “She’s been trying,” she answered. “But I want a Royal Navy position, not a position in some noble’s fleet. So the competition’s a little tougher. If I was alright with getting any engineering position, I probably would have found one by now.”
So while there is corruption in the Noble Fleets (not surprising, really) in the Royal Military, I am willing to bet that corruption is minimal.

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Re: Some Inconsistances in Subjugation?

Post by mbeau » Fri Feb 02, 2007 2:27 pm

ANTIcarrot wrote:<snip>
I still find the universal surrender unbelievable, unless the world leaders were being telepathically prodded. Logically if the Faey want the planet there is a limit to how much damage they can do, and in a conventional war the Humanity might stand a chance against an enemy at the end of a long supply chain. There's more to it of course (telepathy etc) but the world leaders should have acted based upon what they knew at the time, not what Jason knew two years later.
<snip>
Fel actually said more-or-less what I did in the Prologue:
Spoiler: show
Mankind’s first contact with extra-terrestrial life was as dramatic and historical as everyone believed it would be.

They were called the Faey, and they came to Earth not as messengers of peace, but as conquerors.

On March 12th, 2005, they arrived in two immense starships and addressed the peoples of Earth via radio transmission, in every major language, that Earth had two weeks to surrender to the Faey Imperium or face war. They did not use any show of force or destroy anything to prove their might, for the images that Earth telescopes gave of their two vessels was all the show of force anyone needed. They were two miles long and nearly three quarters of a mile across, two sleekly designed monstrosities that were so massive that when they entered into Earth orbit, they affected the tides.

The next day, a lone Faey emissary descended from the vessels above to address the United Nations with the Faey demands, and the global news coverage of the arrival of the emissary caused its own confusion. The Faey representative, a high-ranking military officer, was a breathtakingly lovely human-looking female with light blue skin and pointed ears. She did not look like a warlike alien, she did not even look particularly dangerous. But when she addressed the United Nations, in English, it became quite apparent to everyone watching the globally broadcast event that she was every bit the conqueror. She was arrogant and condescending, and she made it clear immediately that there would be no negotiation. The Earth had two weeks to surrender unconditionally or face war. Earth could either surrender or be conquered, but either way, they would become a part of the Faey Imperium.

Faced with an enemy vastly superior in technology to their own, the nations of Earth met in the United Nations met for two solid weeks and debated furiously, but such a debate had only one ultimate conclusion. That conclusion was reached March 26th, 2005, when the Secretary General of the United Nations, Vladimir Kosparivic, formally and officially surrendered on behalf of all the nations of Earth.
And, like I said in my other post, the Faey weren't all bad:
Spoiler: show
The Faey did turn out to be not quite so heartless as humans originally first believed. They installed a great deal of their own technology on the planet to clean up the environment and converted all human cars and trucks to fuel cells of hydrogen, which burned cleanly. They instituted universal health care for all humans, cured plagues on human kind like AIDS, cancer, and diabetes, and revamped the educational system to start training humans in their technology, so they could maintain the Faey systems themselves. The Faey took over the roles of police, and their telepathic abilities led to the quick capture of all criminals, which in turn led to a drastic drop in crime. They did not interfere with the arts or entertainment, allowing music, movies, television, and even the internet to remain for the enjoyment of the citizenry, encouraged careers in the arts and protected the jobs and livelihoods of those already in careers in the arts, even going so far as to not even bother to censor content, allowing people to express any opinion they wished…for everyone knew that the Faey telepathic gifts would destroy any kind of rebellion before it ever had a chance to begin. Humans were allowed to object to the Faey, even do so publicly, so long as they didn’t actively do anything about it. But many saw these gestures as nothing more than guaranteeing the health and well-being of their slave work force.

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Re: Some Inconsistances in Subjugation?

Post by ANTIcarrot » Fri Feb 02, 2007 5:06 pm

mbeau wrote: Fel actually said more-or-less what I did in the Prologue:
I think you might be missing my point. I'm not claiming Fel said otherwise, I am saying that I'm not sure Fel took sufficient care to separating 'what he knew' and 'what his characters believe.'

The greatest mystery to humanity at the time would not have been 'what do we do now' or 'can we fight back' but 'why in hells name do they want with our planet if they can build ships like that?!' It can't be mineral wealth, as Earth is a pittance in comparison to the asteroid belt. It can’t be for biological wealth, because they'd just come down and grab whatever DNA they wanted to without bothering to say hello. The only possibly rational reasons they would want Earth is the one unique resource that Earth posses in the entire solar system. An intact biosphere.

Which is in fact exactly what the Faey do want.

With that realisation comes another one: If they want it so badly to come all this way they’re hardly likely to risk destroying it, are they? So they can’t use nukes or anything similar. So they have to use conventional weapons, or their equivalent. And we might have a chance. After all, human military experience teaches that a primitive enemy at the end of a short supply line can sometimes defeat an advanced enemy at the end of a long supply line.

Any competent science advisor (assuming there are competent non-telepathic humans in Fel’s world - despite his reluctance to actually portray them) will have told a world leader that the apparent mass of the ships cannot be used as an indication of their actual size or capacity. A civilisation that can build ‘warp drives’ might be able to build ‘tractor beams’ as well, and as an explanation that is much more reasonable explanation than ships that big.

Speaking of those two massive ships... If they’re in a 370km orbit, to affect the tides by shear mass they’d need to have something like 1/1,000,000th mass of the moon, which in a simple cylinder 3200m long and 1200m wide works out to a density of two hundred thousand metric tons per cubic meter. Which is not to say such ships couldn’t be built, but sooner or later any competent race that’s not composed of complete and utter morons is going to work out that five of those cubic meters has enough material to build an O’Neil colonies, and the ship contains enough mass to build 700 million of them. At which point you don’t need farming worlds.

Logically, the leaders of the world would conclude that the Faey are bluffing, or at least not telling the whole truth. (Just like I’ve concluded (And I’m not alone in this) that Fel is not telling us the whole truth, and left out a large chunk of exposition explaining what really happened.) And until they find out more the world leaders (in a reasonable world) are going to tell the Faey where they can stick their request for surrender. As we’re proving on this board people think and react in different ways. At least some of them should have the brains and guts to do that.

There are other reasons they should not just surrender. Fel does not give a reason why they do the exact opposite.

All stories require some suspension of disbelief, but I think Subjugation requires much more than it needs to, and possibly more than is reasonable.

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Re: Some Inconsistances in Subjugation?

Post by mbeau » Fri Feb 02, 2007 6:03 pm

ANTIcarrot wrote:
mbeau wrote: Fel actually said more-or-less what I did in the Prologue:
I think you might be missing my point. I'm not claiming Fel said otherwise, I am saying that I'm not sure Fel took sufficient care to separating 'what he knew' and 'what his characters believe.'
Not really. Because Fel is writing the story, what he thinks that the characters know, is what the characters know. If he wants to make it the same as what he (Fel) believes, or if he wants to set it at some other point, that is his decision.

[/quote]The greatest mystery to humanity at the time would not have been 'what do we do now' or 'can we fight back' but 'why in hells name do they want with our planet if they can build ships like that?!'[/quote]

After a while and after some thought. However, the initial reaction to having a couple immense ships appear in orbit would be "What can we do to ensure that we don't get turned into so much squishy stuff underneath their boots."
It can't be mineral wealth, as Earth is a pittance in comparison to the asteroid belt. It can’t be for biological wealth, because they'd just come down and grab whatever DNA they wanted to without bothering to say hello. The only possibly rational reasons they would want Earth is the one unique resource that Earth posses in the entire solar system. An intact biosphere.
There are other reasons. They may want organic materials (wood, etc. They may want slaves/cannon fodder/test subjects. Hell, they may want to turn this into a private zoo or pleasure planet. When you add that to the fact that when they (the Faey) appeared, there would have been no knowledge about them at all, any guesses about what they (the humans) *should* have thought is a complete guess.

[/quote]Which is in fact exactly what the Faey do want.[/quote]

Hindsight, after reading the story.
With that realisation comes another one: If they want it so badly to come all this way they’re hardly likely to risk destroying it, are they? So they can’t use nukes or anything similar. So they have to use conventional weapons, or their equivalent. And we might have a chance.
You are using the hindsight that you get from reading the story to provide knowledge to the world leaders at the time the Faey first arrived. They wouldn't have known that Earth was going to become a farm planet to provide food. All they knew was that a couple ships showed up out of nowhere and we were told: Easy way or hard way??

Plus, when you consider the amount of the planet that is *not* covered by densely populated cities, they could easily nuke the cities and leave them glowing parking lots and it would only be the loss of a small percentage of the cultivatable land. The small numbers of people that are left behind would also pose no real threat to the Faey.
After all, human military experience teaches that a primitive enemy at the end of a short supply line can sometimes defeat an advanced enemy at the end of a long supply line.
Again you appear to be using hindsight and your knowledge from the story to provide information to the human leaders that they had no way of knowing. There would have been no info saying how far earth is from their base or how long it would take them to get here. No knowledge of their technological level, nor of what they wanted from the earth.
Any competent science advisor (assuming there are competent non-telepathic humans in Fel’s world - despite his reluctance to actually portray them) will have told a world leader that the apparent mass of the ships cannot be used as an indication of their actual size or capacity. A civilisation that can build ‘warp drives’ might be able to build ‘tractor beams’ as well, and as an explanation that is much more reasonable explanation than ships that big.
Using the science that existed at the start of the series, humans didn't know about warp drive. No tri-phased plasma, no telepathy. All they had was current human tech. The science advisors would have given them "They are massive enough to affect the tides, and we don't know why."

Science advisors advise based on the science of the day. In todays science, warp drives and tractor beams are still very much in the realm of science fiction. Sure, some people at NASA might be working on it, but it is all theoretical for the enxt significant while, barring any sudden scientific breakthrough.
Speaking of those two massive ships... If they’re in a 370km orbit, to affect the tides by shear mass they’d need to have something like 1/1,000,000th mass of the moon, which in a simple cylinder 3200m long and 1200m wide works out to a density of two hundred thousand metric tons per cubic meter.
Seeing as how Fel doesn't give any information about how far above the earth the ships were, nor how much the tides shifted, any speculations are really, well, speculations. Combine that with the fact that Fel has admitted that the first 10 chapters were written as a distraction and that he didn't do the same amount of research for that as he normally does...
Which is not to say such ships couldn’t be built, but sooner or later any competent race that’s not composed of complete and utter morons is going to work out that five of those cubic meters has enough material to build an O’Neil colonies, and the ship contains enough mass to build 700 million of them. At which point you don’t need farming worlds.
Not really. Just because something is very dense doesn't mean that you can stretch it out to something paper-thin and still retain it's structural integrity when faced with vacuum, micrometeorites, solar wind, radiation. Let alone the weight of the stuff you would have to put in it to make it viable.
Logically, the leaders of the world would conclude that the Faey are bluffing, or at least not telling the whole truth.
Logically the world leaders would assume that these creatures have space travel. When you are attacking a defended position, conventional wisdom says that you require at least 3 times the numbers when you have technological parity. There is an unknown technological gap that exists, and that gives the invaders a huge force-multiplier.
(Just like I’ve concluded (And I’m not alone in this) that Fel is not telling us the whole truth, and left out a large chunk of exposition explaining what really happened.)
It is the prologue. The humans have to surrender quickly and without a fight so that the story can get moving so that Jason has free, uninhibited access to Faey Technology. That the Faey are there as a police force, and not as a force that is in the middle of invading. There has to be only a little resentment of the Faey and not a whoile lot of resistance to them. That is the direction that Fel wanted the story to go, so that is why it went down the way it did.

And of course Fel left a bunch of stuff out. It is really unimportant to the story.
And until they find out more the world leaders (in a reasonable world) are going to tell the Faey where they can stick their request for surrender. As we’re proving on this board people think and react in different ways. At least some of them should have the brains and guts to do that.
In your opinion. I think that the world leaders would have said "If we are all dead, we can't fight back."
There are other reasons they should not just surrender. Fel does not give a reason why they do the exact opposite.
The reasons are there, you just don't like them.
All stories require some suspension of disbelief, but I think Subjugation requires much more than it needs to, and possibly more than is reasonable.
I don't think so. I had no problem with my suspnsion of disbelief in this story.

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Re: Some Inconsistances in Subjugation?

Post by ANTIcarrot » Fri Feb 02, 2007 11:20 pm

Bystanders: This is more about writing technique & logic than Subjugation. Skip if you wish.
mbeau wrote: Not really. Because Fel is writing the story, what he thinks that the characters know, is what the characters know.
Sorry, the point seems to flown far above your head yet again. The story stops making sense if the characters solve every problem by cheating and looking inside their copy of the author's notes. This is why Jason and Jyslin don't just skip straight to the end of the story and bypass all that 'losing an arm' unpleasantness in the middle. That is a FUNDAMENTAL RULE OF WRITING. And it doesn't go away just because you don't understand it.
If he wants to make it the same as what he (Fel) believes, or if he wants to set it at some other point, that is his decision.
If he's working for Monty Python, yes. Otherwise no. The story has to make sense. Read back through Fel's posts and notice how many times he refers to his story notes. The rules in those notes define the story (EG: what Fel can and cannot do) as much as Fel's mind when he's actually writing the story.
After a while and after some thought. However, the initial reaction to having a couple immense ships appear in orbit would be "What can we do to ensure that we don't get turned into so much squishy stuff underneath their boots."
If you think so little of your national leader that's your own business. Not all of them have the backbone of a jellyfish or the brains of a dead cabbage.
There are other reasons.
Unfortunately economics knocks most of that on the head. (Unless you're looking at a smash and grab, in which case humans might as well fight back 'cause we're screwed anyway.) Wood could be grown more easily in their systems. An advanced civilization *needing* slaves is one of those really dumb scifi-cleches that pop up in bad science fiction and Hollywood filem. Test subjects for what? Another bad-scifi idea. The last two are exactly what I suggested in the first place; as they both require the biosphere being intact.
When you add that to the fact that when they (the Faey) appeared, there would have been no knowledge about them at all, any guesses about what they (the humans) *should* have thought is a complete guess.
Not entirely. People have actually put a lot of thought into this kind of thing. And FTL travel wouldn't change their conclusions. Besides, speach and thought are more closely linked then you seem to think. If they can speak our language and look like us and act like us so much we can't help but recognise arrogance, then they effectively are human. At that point governments could make very good predictions, baring the effects of Faey stupidity.

Unfortunately no sane prediction leads to complete surrender. If you can think of one (beyond 'Fel said so, thus it might be true') please share.
Hindsight, after reading the story.
Foresight, based upon logic and a knowledge base broader than you seem to have access to. And the fact that the biosphere is the ONLY thing Earth has that isn't more easily accessible elsewhere in the solar system.
You are using the hindsight
And you are hiding behind that false accusation rather than admit that Fel might have made a small mistake in the first chapter when even he has admitted he wasn't taking the story at all seriously at that point. Another concept you seem willfully ignorant of: Occam's razor. Which of the two possibilities seems more likely to you?
Plus, when you consider the amount of the planet that is *not* covered by densely populated cities, they could easily nuke the cities and leave them glowing parking lots
Add 'effects of fallout' to list of things you need to read up on. Maybe they can do this, but humanity doesn't know they can do that as easily as you say. Besides, such damage in and of itself might damage the biosphere in and of itself.
The small numbers of people that are left behind would also pose no real threat to the Faey.
<sarcasm> Oh yes. All those boomer captains each possessing a few hundred nukes and their launch/detonation codes. Yes. Absolutely. No threat there at all whatsoever. </sarcasm>
Again you appear to be using hindsight
No, again you are ignoring all possible sources of knowledge outside of the story. It's called HISTORY. Try looking the word up. I assure you politicians are usually quite well versed in it.
humans didn't know about warp drive.
Please tell me you're not serious? You don't need to know how something works to imagine it. Why the heck do you think I was using STAR TREK terms? Baka!
Seeing as how Fel doesn't give any information about how far above the earth the ships were,
Only in your head where you seem unaware of the encyclopedic nature of the internet, and the usefulness and application of knowledge it contains. We know what makes the tides work; the ~0.0003m/s^2 gravity from the moon. It doesn't take a university degree to work that figure out, nor how big the ships woudl have to be to achieve the same effect by shear mass.

Though it does appear to take something more than you have.
Not really.
Yes really. Stop talking nonsense about things you are too lazy to look up.
Logically the world leaders would assume that these creatures have space travel. When you are attacking a defended position, conventional wisdom says that you require at least 3 times the numbers when you have technological parity.
Or you just need two guys and a nuke. (See 'American sea invasion of Japan.' Sarcasm again.) But please don't let actual reality get in the way of your ramblings.
The reasons are there, you just don't like them.
That's because they aren't very good reasons.
All stories require some suspension of disbelief, but I think Subjugation requires much more than it needs to, and possibly more than is reasonable.
I don't think so. I had no problem with my suspnsion of disbelief in this story.
With all the apparent holes in your education, I don't doubt it.

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Re: Some Inconsistances in Subjugation?

Post by Mistra » Sat Feb 03, 2007 12:30 am

just a thought about your calculations, The storie says those ships are made from neutronium(or something that looks like that). Lets presume the moon is made from iron (not true, but imagine, cause we all know it's lighter then an iron ball), Iron, Fe, has 26 electrons and 26 positrons, while for example, the heaviest element named by mankind ununoctium, has 118 of both. that's (roughly) 5 times the weight of a single iron atom, and the molecules of neutronium might very wel be a lot more compact than iron/steel molecules.

Oh, and the Feay have replicatortech, they can make anything up to gold, if those ships of them were made of iron, the would have an infinite suply.


just my 2 cents (you can always recify me if i'm wrong, except for my spelling, i know it's horrid :wink: )

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Re: Some Inconsistances in Subjugation?

Post by mbeau » Sat Feb 03, 2007 2:35 am

In the end, it is a fiction story.

As much as you hate it, if Fel says it is so, then it is so. Fiction is, by definition, made up. That means that Fel sets all the rules. He makes all the decisions. He decides what the characters know, how they act. If the story is better because the United Nations decides that they will surrender rather than fight, well, the UN will surrender rather than fight.

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Re: Some Inconsistances in Subjugation?

Post by Phantom » Sat Feb 03, 2007 8:11 pm

<LARGE SIGH>

<Shakes Head>

Ok for one thing ...

Why did Earth roll over and surrender ...

Well Maybe they didn't .....Could it be they Decided to play along and then strike back when they might just have a chance of winning? ....But wait the Faey didn't play fair

The Were Telepaths ....you know people able to read the thoughts of others and Squash any attempts at rebellion before they even started.

As for the 2 guys and a nuke argument it's kinda hard to use said Nuke when the Faey have already detected it from orbit and removed them all.

I also saw Anti pushing that the Faey wanted Earth as a Farming community we could have fought back as they wouldn't have wanted to damage the earth and would have kept it to a conventional battle.


Humm Weren't these the Very same Faey who were about to blast the Entire North American continent in to the Stone age just to wipe out a hand full of Revolutionaries ?
That's Beside's the Problem that The UN and other had NO IDEA at the Time that the Faey needed food or were fighting a war on another Front.
No one on Earth Knew these Facts yet ....

I could go on and on ....but i just realy don't feel like it today ...maybe later.

The point is yes there are some ruff edges ......and for what Fel is being paid to write they aren't much.

Hell i've seen worse from Dead Tree authors and they have several proof readers and Editors paid to make them look damn good.

Some one also said some thing about Star Trek ....can anyone say YATI ?
( YATI = Yet Another Trek Inconsistency ) it was loaded with them.

Anyways I'm sure If Fel started Writing Sub today he would change several things ...I think i remember him saying that he had little direction for the story untill about chapter 10 except for maybe where it should end up. Hell the Story is over 3 years old and Fels Story background development has Grown durring that time.

I for one enjoy his fairly original Story lines hes been able to create.


Phantom
And in the fury of this darkest hour
I will be your light
A lifetime for this destiny
For I am Winter born
And in this moment..I will not run
It is my place to stand
We few shall carry hope
Within our bloodied hands
(bloodied hands)
And in our Dying, we're more alive-than we have ever been
I've lived for these few seconds
For I am Winter born
The CruxShadows "Winterborn" (This Sacrifice)

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Re: Some Inconsistances in Subjugation?

Post by ANTIcarrot » Sat Feb 03, 2007 8:21 pm

NB: Welcome to the discussion Mistra. Here's your complementary flak vest and entrenching tool. :twisted:
Mistra wrote: molecules of neutronium might very wel be a lot more compact than iron/steel molecules.
Quite true. A neutron star that massive would be a meter across or smaller. Super-heavy elements are a fun way you can come up with impossible technologies. (One of my favorites being Strawberrium - named by a bored college student after his favorite type of ice cream.) But from the point of view of the laws of physics as humanity understood them at the time, the ships' mass was impossible (for a variety of reasons) and hence was likely an illusion.

Irrelevant of what is true in the story, that is the conclusion I believe the world would come to about the Faey. That they are hiding something, and their biggest threat is a trick; which woudl be very interesting to humanity, as a people as powerful as the Faey are claiming to be, shouldn't need to resort to tricks... Which is why I believe the UN wouldn't just capitulate without another reason.

There are at least three partial solutions to this problem I can think of, but they involve partial or conditional surrenders at best, or create real problems for the Faey in the long run.
Oh, and the Feay have replicatortech, they can make anything up to gold, if those ships of them were made of iron, the would have an infinite suply.
Again true. However you would still need the industrial capacity to process that amount of material. It is my sincere belief, based around the works of various Space Settlement visionaries, and NASA study groups, could be used to 168 billion square kilometers of usable farmland by building 700 million Island 3 style structures; which woudl be by no means an efficient use of the material. That is significantly larger than Earth's surface area; a mere 450 million square kilometers.

Another reason why it's illogical to conquer worlds. You can build a planet's worth of land for less cost than building the ships needed to conquer another planet. Given how easy it is to wreck a planet (take a few dozen mile wide oort cloud objects, counter their 100mps orbital speed, and take aim) it also makes much more sense to invest in a distributed farming system. Individually each farming colony woudl be more vulnerable, but together they'd be near impossible to kill.
just my 2 cents (you can always recify me if i'm wrong, except for my spelling, i know it's horrid :wink: )
Not wrong, but unaware of books like Mining In The Sky. In the past thirty years humans have come up with a lot of really neat ideas as to what can be done with our current technology, and I've listed some of them above. If they Faey haven't thought of such ideas or have decided not to use them that says something rather uncomplimentary about their minds.

Which might also be reasons not to surrender, depending on your point of view. :)

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Re: Some Inconsistances in Subjugation?

Post by ANTIcarrot » Sat Feb 03, 2007 8:58 pm

Phantom wrote:<LARGE SIGH> <Shakes Head>
<Shrugs shoulders>

Unfortunately it's like witting a cop drama. No matter how hard you try, you will end up make mistakes, and having your cop characters doing things that any real cop will find laughable.

Science fiction, for all it is derided, comes with its own set of guidelines; mostly because it's set in some version of the real world. And because the people who read scifi have usually read a lot of it. A lot of them also know more than the average amount about science. A famous example of what happens when the two meet is the story "Cold Equations".

A pilot on a fast currier rocket ship is carrying a much needed vaccine to a plague ravaged colony world, and has zero fuel reserves. Past the point of no return, he then finds a stowaway on board, and if he doesn't throw her out the airlock (company protocol for this situation) he won't have enough fuel to make the planet. After much soul searching, she agrees to jump ship. The author intended the story to illustrate the principle "When the laws of physics say 'no', they don't mean 'maybe'." Hundreds of people since then have pointed out that the pilot *didn't* need to space the girl, and that there were a dozen other things on the ship he could have thrown off instead.

The 'two guys and a nuke' is meant to illustrate the same thing; to point out there are other ways to do things other than the ones the author lets the characters think of, and that readers will spot that unless the author is careful.

And just to make the point clear, I did enjoy Subjugation a lot. For the most part I enjoyed it. I've paid money for books which contain bigger plot-holes in the opening paragraph, and if it was available in book form I might do it for this as well. Cudos to him for writing it and sharing it. I didn't write my posts since the end of Subjugation to attack him, but to review the story, and point our contradictions he might not have intended.

(Like the fact that burning North America to the ground would have caused lasting and extensive damage to the rest of Earth's ecosystem. It's a silly threat.)

By pointing them out, and debating them, Fel gets the choice to take the criticisms on board. If we kept silent he wouldn't get that choice would he?

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Re: Some Inconsistances in Subjugation?

Post by Peter_Koopman » Sun Feb 04, 2007 7:30 pm

ANTIcarrot wrote:Bystanders: This is more about writing technique & logic than Subjugation. Skip if you wish.
I think it's gone beyond that. You're taking this way to personal.

Please stop the name calling. Flames about educational skills of other members won't get you anywhere.

Fel's books are not about reality. They are about Fel's view on a fictional reality. In this reality the people of earth choose not to fight. If you don't like his views, write a book yourself. If it's better, I'll read it. Hell... I'll even pay for it. :) (I won't write it though. For one, my grasp of English isn't good enough. :oops: For two, I'm not sure my imagination is rich enough. ;))

In agree with you on some points. In my view there are plot holes and illogicalities. A ship that size most likely will have no effect on the tides. Nuking a continent to stamp out rebellion is not very likely as well, although I think it was a plot to lure the rebels out of hiding.

But my point: Please keep it civilized.
"Fear is the main source of superstition, and one of the main sources of cruelty.
To conquer fear is the beginning of wisdom."

mbeau
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Re: Some Inconsistances in Subjugation?

Post by mbeau » Mon Feb 05, 2007 3:34 pm

Phantom wrote:<LARGE SIGH>

<Shakes Head>

Ok for one thing ...

Why did Earth roll over and surrender ...
Because Fel decided it would be better for the story.
I also saw Anti pushing that the Faey wanted Earth as a Farming community we could have fought back as they wouldn't have wanted to damage the earth and would have kept it to a conventional battle.


Humm Weren't these the Very same Faey who were about to blast the Entire North American continent in to the Stone age just to wipe out a hand full of Revolutionaries ?
Keep in mind that There is a decent lapse in time as well as a serious change in situation from the beginning of the story to the point at which the Trillane are threatening a scorched-earth campaign. At the beginning, there is no resistance at all, so there is little stress. However, after Jason fully embraces his resistance, and starts causing serioous trouble for the Trillanes, then they (the Trillanes) start to realize just how serious he is.

Not only is he causing serious disruption to the flow of food to the rest of the empire (which mighht result in a loss of their contract over Earth) but he revealed their slave-selling plans. The two, combined, have the potential to put a serious crimp in the Trillane's plan to take over the throne.
That's Beside's the Problem that The UN and other had NO IDEA at the Time that the Faey needed food or were fighting a war on another Front.
No one on Earth Knew these Facts yet ....
Exactly.
The point is yes there are some ruff edges ......and for what Fel is being paid to write they aren't much.
He said himself that the first several chapters weren't written with the same sort of planning and preparation that he normally goes into.

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Phantom
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Re: Some Inconsistances in Subjugation?

Post by Phantom » Wed Feb 07, 2007 2:54 am

mbeau wrote:
Phantom wrote:<LARGE SIGH>

<Shakes Head>

Ok for one thing ...

Why did Earth roll over and surrender ...
Because Fel decided it would be better for the story.
Actually it was the Main point of the Story
mbeau wrote:
I also saw Anti pushing that the Faey wanted Earth as a Farming community we could have fought back as they wouldn't have wanted to damage the earth and would have kept it to a conventional battle.


Humm Weren't these the Very same Faey who were about to blast the Entire North American continent in to the Stone age just to wipe out a hand full of Revolutionaries ?

Keep in mind that There is a decent lapse in time as well as a serious change in situation from the beginning of the story to the point at which the Trillane are threatening a scorched-earth campaign. At the beginning, there is no resistance at all, so there is little stress. However, after Jason fully embraces his resistance, and starts causing serioous trouble for the Trillanes, then they (the Trillanes) start to realize just how serious he is.

Not only is he causing serious disruption to the flow of food to the rest of the empire (which mighht result in a loss of their contract over Earth) but he revealed their slave-selling plans. The two, combined, have the potential to put a serious crimp in the Trillane's plan to take over the throne.

The point I was trying to make here was a response to the post that the Faey wouldn't or couldn't devastate the Earth just to gain control of it.
The fact that House trilanne were attempting that action shows that they were in fact willing to do just that.
mbeau wrote:
That's Beside's the Problem that The UN and other had NO IDEA at the Time that the Faey needed food or were fighting a war on another Front.
No one on Earth Knew these Facts yet ....
Exactly.
The point is yes there are some ruff edges ......and for what Fel is being paid to write they aren't much.
He said himself that the first several chapters weren't written with the same sort of planning and preparation that he normally goes into.
I was actually trying to point that fact out to the other posters
my post that you quoted was in answer to other posts in this thread ..

Phantom
And in the fury of this darkest hour
I will be your light
A lifetime for this destiny
For I am Winter born
And in this moment..I will not run
It is my place to stand
We few shall carry hope
Within our bloodied hands
(bloodied hands)
And in our Dying, we're more alive-than we have ever been
I've lived for these few seconds
For I am Winter born
The CruxShadows "Winterborn" (This Sacrifice)

mbeau
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Posts: 85
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2004 1:30 am

Re: Some Inconsistances in Subjugation?

Post by mbeau » Wed Feb 07, 2007 2:52 pm

Phantom wrote: The point I was trying to make here was a response to the post that the Faey wouldn't or couldn't devastate the Earth just to gain control of it.
The fact that House trilanne were attempting that action shows that they were in fact willing to do just that.
True. Also, the Kimdori Clanmother says it herself as well, that the Faey are (paraphrased) childish, impulsive and not able to cross the street without needing someone to hold their hand".

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