OK Subjugation has ended

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ANTIcarrot
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Re: OK Subjugation has ended

Post by ANTIcarrot » Sun Jan 28, 2007 11:00 pm

Fiferguy wrote:I think there are several important things to remember here. #1--It's Fel's stories.
True enough. However a counter point #1. This is my point of view as a reader. And I'm entitled to it. And #2. A plot hole is a still a plot hole even when other readers refuse to see it.
As far as Fel missing human behavior, I think he did a good job of it.
I'd be surprised if there were five hundred words in the entire story devoted to actions of non telepathic humans. And as far as telling us, Fel contradicts us almost every other time he talks about it. We learn very little about the Subjugation of humanity, which is a little odd considering the title of the story.
It's hard to have a rebellion against anything if the oppressor knows what you're thinking.
This statement demonstrates a shocking lack of imagination on your part. That problem only exists for centralized or cell-style resistance. If it's open rebellion (like 'illegal' file-sharing) then it's much more difficult to clamp down on it. If it's emergent behavior, then it's impossible. If the Faey soldiers aren't doing their jobs right (which they fail to do again and again) then they probably won't even notice until it's too late. Fel portrays the Faey as moronic on occasion, which is nothing compared to his portrayal of incompetent humanity when they fail to take advantage of it even once.

There's also economic resistance. Simply making enough money until you can afford to screw someone else over legally. Or black-market resistance, where you pay a Kimdori or rival house to sneak you off world to a place where you are no longer under the Trillane's thumb. Or you start prospecting the asteroid belt and do the same thing. There are dozens of ways it could be done. Unfortunately Fel tells us absolutely nothing about the state of affairs of Earth's economy (again, very strange, as that is a hell of a lot more important than a mere 3 million humans) or what kind of system the Trillane's operated on Earth.

Since the story seems to bypass the Subjugation altogether, maybe a better title might be 'How Jason Became The Most Powerful Man In The Universe'. Or maybe use 'telepath' instead of 'man' just to make it quite clear the story doesn't include and isn't about humans at all.
Interstellarly speaking, humans are barely above cavemen.
Neither are the Faey. Stupidity is the other great equaliser. And the Faey show themselves to be moronically stupid again and again and again. Mentally speaking, the Faey are practically human with a slightly better education, not ubermenchen. If anything, socially they're about a thousand years behind us. Remember this is not Sennadar and Jason is not Tarrin. Jason is not a demigod. He is special because he's a generations telepath. Anything else he does, so can anyone else.
Such would be the fight between humans and ANY true space-faring race.
A true space fairing race would find the idea of a 'farming world' impossibly quaint. The Faey aren't a true space faring civilization, but a planetary one. They're Mongol Hordes with lightsabres and funkey mental powers. They have absolutely no idea what they're technology is actually capable of, as Jason proves repeatedly, even before Karris.
Also, Fel left a lot of plot threads open on purpose. He needed to leave room for some short story sequels.
And if you believe that, I have some land in Florida I'd like to sell you.

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Re: OK Subjugation has ended

Post by barock88 » Mon Jan 29, 2007 2:07 am

I find the discussion here very amusing. Yes, there are holes in fel's Subjugation story. Yes, it is not that technically written. Yes, I still like the story for what it is.... a story. We could discuss all of the plot holes and technical writing flaws of Subjugation but it's never going to change anything. What we should be discussing is how much more of a help we can be to fel's somewhat limited resources in order to broaden the sennadar universe.

I know discussing his writing techniques and storylines are a good start, but how many of you "LOYAL" readers actually volunteers to edit some of his works. We all want a good story to read but if we're just going to stay on the sidelines then we can expect some of fel's writings to suffer. The guy is writing on his free time and he still has to contend with real life. I'm sure he appreciates are comments, the good and even the critical ones.

Most of the net writers I have corresponded to before appreciates the comments we give them because they feel that it helps them in their writing. So therefore I begin;

1. I think the setting of story was well thought of but not completely describe where it can be better explored
2. The story is very much a character driven affair whereas it centers on Jason's life under faey rule and how it affects him
3. A better understanding of faey politics and it's machination may have been a bit hurriedly describe that it leaves us to compare it to current earth politics
4. Character development was well thought of for the main character but some of the minor players did suffer a bit in their development. example
Tim's ready admission into the faey lifestyle is bit abrupt . Fel may have included that Tim was raise by hippie parents or perhaps swingers :lol:
5. It is still a well written story where it combine the elements of action, adventure, romance and perhaps a bit of mystery
"Death is Death" from A MASTER'S RING by EL SOL

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Re: OK Subjugation has ended

Post by Spec8472 » Mon Jan 29, 2007 2:28 am

barock88 wrote:The guy is writing on his free time and he still has to contend with real life.
Not only that, but if Fel took his time writing chapters (rather than pushing them out to us as soon as he's done some basic editing), then I'm sure you'd see a marked improvement too.

In a period of about 2 months, Fel released 5 chapters (really about 7, considering how long Chapter 20 was) - all while working and studying.

I don't think that's far off full-time writing levels.

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Fiferguy
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Re: OK Subjugation has ended

Post by Fiferguy » Mon Jan 29, 2007 2:49 am

ANTIcarrot wrote:True enough. However a counter point #1. This is my point of view as a reader. And I'm entitled to it. And #2. A plot hole is a still a plot hole even when other readers refuse to see it.
And you're entitled to be an jackass about it, even if other forum members refuse to call you on it.
ANTIcarrot wrote:I'd be surprised if there were five hundred words in the entire story devoted to actions of non telepathic humans. And as far as telling us, Fel contradicts us almost every other time he talks about it. We learn very little about the Subjugation of humanity, which is a little odd considering the title of the story.
Once again, the story wasn't about the whole of humanity's reaction to the Subjugation. It was about Jason's reaction, and what happened to him. Story wise, who really cares what else is going on? It's not important what else is happening in Los Angeles while Jason is living in West Virginia, unless it directly affects him.
ANTIcarrot wrote:This statement demonstrates a shocking lack of imagination on your part.
I'm not even going to dignify that with a response.
ANTIcarrot wrote:That problem only exists for centralized or cell-style resistance. If it's open rebellion (like 'illegal' file-sharing) then it's much more difficult to clamp down on it. If it's emergent behavior, then it's impossible. If the Faey soldiers aren't doing their jobs right (which they fail to do again and again) then they probably won't even notice until it's too late. Fel portrays the Faey as moronic on occasion, which is nothing compared to his portrayal of incompetent humanity when they fail to take advantage of it even once.
So if every person on earth rebelled, it'd work? What about 1 in 10? 1 in 100? If there that many rebels, there would be a much more vigilant force on hand to deal with them. Even a guerrilla-based war wouldn't work. We saw in the story that the Faey didn't mind leveling a continent to drive out a resistance force. Doing seven continents wouldn't be that much harder.
ANTIcarrot wrote:There's also economic resistance. Simply making enough money until you can afford to screw someone else over legally. Or black-market resistance, where you pay a Kimdori or rival house to sneak you off world to a place where you are no longer under the Trillane's thumb. Or you start prospecting the asteroid belt and do the same thing. There are dozens of ways it could be done. Unfortunately Fel tells us absolutely nothing about the state of affairs of Earth's economy (again, very strange, as that is a hell of a lot more important than a mere 3 million humans) or what kind of system the Trillane's operated on Earth.
Fel actually did address this, several times. The people who actively objected to the Faey rule were either sent to a farm which was closely guarded or they did what Jason did--ran away. The problem with running away is that they then became outlaws, and their face would automatically be recognized as such if they ever went to a space port. Now I'm sure you'll come back with something like "But there were always ships coming and going in the frontier to deliver stuff to Jason." True, but the ships coming and going bring Jason stuff had a distinct advantage--Kumi. Kumi, as a Trillane noble, would be able to access all the information that she needed to slip in and out. Especially since she had her Kimdori friend.

Any other human trying to do what Jason did wouldn't have been able to do it. Jason brought the technology he needed and the knowledge to use it into the frontier with him. He had also befriended, albeit unwittingly, someone who didn't mind doing something slightly illegally to help him. A singularly unique set of events that led to an agreeable outcome. Of course, it is a story.

Is it possible that someone else could do what Jason did? Of course. But the point is this book isn't about some other person's adventure. It's about Jason. And Fel did an excellent job of telling Jason's story. The rest of humanity was mentioned several times, but their plight wasn't exactly plot sensitive. It was in that Jason was trying to improve Earth's condition and the average human's placement, but it wasn't about John Doe out in Iowa picking corn.
ANTIcarrot wrote:Since the story seems to bypass the Subjugation altogether, maybe a better title might be 'How Jason Became The Most Powerful Man In The Universe'. Or maybe use 'telepath' instead of 'man' just to make it quite clear the story doesn't include and isn't about humans at all.
I don't know where you got this idea, but whatever.
ANTIcarrot wrote:Neither are the Faey. Stupidity is the other great equaliser. And the Faey show themselves to be moronically stupid again and again and again.
But still smarter than current humans.
ANTIcarrot wrote:Mentally speaking, the Faey are practically human with a slightly better education, not ubermenchen. If anything, socially they're about a thousand years behind us. Remember this is not Sennadar and Jason is not Tarrin. Jason is not a demigod. He is special because he's a generations telepath. Anything else he does, so can anyone else.
Emphasis added by me. Their education is the advantage. Knowledge is power, and that is Jason's true talent. Jason wasn't successful because he was a Generations Telepath. His knowledge and resourcefulness is why he was special.

I don't believe that socially they are a thousand years behind us. It's different, but not behind. I would say that the toleration that they show for other races, religions, etc. shows that they are actually ahead of us in many ways. The current social climate, at least if you live in the US and listen to the propaganda spread by the current idiotic administration, is an environment of fear, hate, bigotry, and religious zealousness. This mirrors the social climate of other areas of the world. Are we still socially advanced to the Faey?
ANTIcarrot wrote:A true space fairing race would find the idea of a 'farming world' impossibly quaint. The Faey aren't a true space faring civilization, but a planetary one. They're Mongol Hordes with lightsabres and funkey mental powers. They have absolutely no idea what they're technology is actually capable of, as Jason proves repeatedly, even before Karris.
Perhaps. Perhaps not. I'll let you know when I meet a true space faring race.

In the story, producing food in a replicator was only postulated, not tested.

Also, if you're going to point out other people's spelling and grammar mistakes, make sure you know the right way to do it yourself. They're equals they are. Their is the possessive form of they, as in "That is their dog." And just to be complete, there is a reference to a place.
ANTIcarrot wrote:And if you believe that, I have some land in Florida I'd like to sell you.
Never heard that one before. Usually it's something to the effect of "some ocean front property in Arizona." But I wouldn't mind having some property in Florida. Good hunting, good fishing, pleasant climate, and pretty women. Sounds good to me.

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Re: OK Subjugation has ended

Post by lapland » Mon Jan 29, 2007 12:19 pm

ANTIcarrot
You obviously have not read the first couple chapters of the book. Fell does clearly discribe life from the human/nontlepath point of view because Jason at the time was just that. He discribes what happens in one sentence where one college student tried to rebel, at least Jason thinks there was one. There is an underground rebellion, they just can't DO anything about it. Half the population is on farms with little to no income. The first few chapters show that only a few have any financial capabilities. Those very wealthy who had gold and silver to sell. Very wealthy people will usually use their money for self improved placement, like buying yourself off the farms. Jason only got a small income and was forbiden to get an outside job, although he did fill in at the piano bar occationally.

The Faeh seemed moronic against Jason's genetically enhanced intellegence. That doesn't mean they are morons. They couldn't compete against genetically enhanced intelegence. Would you do more to rebel? I doubt it. Look at all of history, how people submitted to slavery, or subjegation in its many forms. Usually there is very little rebellion. Jason does clearly state most problems the Faeh have in domination are in North America, USA specifically. This would be normal on the scope of things. Jason is the first to be able to rebel because he is a VERY strong telepath. He taught himself how to protect his mind long before the Faeh ever arrived. Then he learned how to use telepathy. He is the ONLY generation on earth. The other human telepaths, if they are trained would be no stronger then the army regulars. Being untrained they are but children.

THe story is about Jason, and his experiences under the subjegation and his rebellion. He has a few friends that follow him, so they are discribed as well. He surrounds himself with those who can rebel. Which means many are going to be his closest friends, mates and other telepaths.

As far as spelling, grammer, coposition etc. This is essentially a first draft. Fel doesn't have an army of professionally trained editors to correct those things before publication like major book authors. But then even those books have problems, sometimes major problems.

By your extensive criticism you show yourself to be insulting and belittling someone who has spent years trying to entertain, and yes learn as he is going along. Fel has an incredible imagination. I may not always like every little part of how he relates a story. Is there one auther that does that for every person? I'd say if you don't think the regular humans have enough story, write your own fan fiction. Send it to Fel for authorization and publish it yourself instead of complaining. But it HAS to fit in the universe as discribed. There are a LOT of rules to follow. And reality must also be followed. Subjegated people usually will except the role they are given. They will usually try to be the best they can in the role they are given and try to improve their possition, but seldom will they rebel, without a large group to back them. Don't rock the boat is the way most humans operate.

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