Other races capable of interbreeding? (Big Spoilers!)

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Re: Other races capable of interbreeding? (Big Spoilers!)

Post by Fiferguy » Sun Jan 14, 2007 5:00 am

It could be. But in every scifi book I've read with an advanced race encountering a less advanced race, there is a non-interference clause in their rules. The Star Trek universe calls it the "Prime Directive." Other universes have their version of this. I would be very surprised if the Kimdori had such an interest that long ago. After the Karinne settled here, I can see them interfering, but not before. So I don't think it was the Kimdori. I think, if there is such an advanced race and not just a fluke of nature, they're even older than the Kimdori, Faey, Humans, Skaa, etc. combined. They may not even be around any more, or they may be so technologically advanced that no one can detect them. Or perhaps they've ascended to another state of existence.

Or perhaps, in the infiniteness of the Universe, that which the mathematical probability is so small to be almost none is possible, and Faey and Human really did just evolve independently but similarly.

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Re: Other races capable of interbreeding? (Big Spoilers!)

Post by Fel » Sun Jan 14, 2007 6:59 am

I addressed this issue in the book, though it'll never appear anywhere within the book.

Gora's Law does apply between Earth and Draconis. Both have virtually identical geologic histories and environmental conditions. There are animals on both planets that look almost identical, and could interchangably survive if moved to a similar ecosystem on the other planet.

This is an actual IRL scientific theory, btw, though the name of it escapes me. I remember reading it somewhere.

Gora's Law connects Earth and Draconis, but only so far. A Vulpar and fox are "interchangable" animals in their environments, but there are differences. Vulpars have two tails and have a lifespan of around 70 years, where foxes have one tail and live for only about 15 years. A Vulpar and a fox can't interbreed.

Interchangeable species between Earth and Draconis cannot, as a rule, interbreed. They are similar, but not genetically compatible. The few that can interbreed produce sterile offspring that aren't viable for continuing a crossbred "merged species," like the mule offspring of a horse and a donkey.

There is only one mirror species combination between Earth and Draconis that can breed viable offspring: humans and Faey.

Why? Simple. The Faey aren't native to Draconis. They think they are, and thanks to Gora's Law, they're just similar enough to appear that they are, but they aren't. Faey and humans can breed because Faey and humans are [related]. The Faey are actually a branch race of humanity, and are from Earth. They're similar to the Neanderthal race (but prettier), a branch of the homo sapien line, but one that went extinct on Earth a very, very long time ago. So long ago that the fossil record of them is mistaken for other, closely related species.

They were moved to Draconis by one of the ancient races that are now long extinct, hundreds of thousands of years ago, to separate the Faey's ancestors from their human cousins. Even at that stage, the first vestiges of telepathic ability was starting to manifest itself in them, and the ancient race saw that and realized that this new offshoot of the proto-human line would be eradicated by its larger cousins. So they were moved. On Draconis they had no competition (Draconian simians had not yet reached the proto-sapien stage), they evolved into the modern Faey, and their telepathic abilities matured.

That's also why the humans and the Faey act similarly. They have the same biological instincts, the same drives, and the same violent tendancies.

There are some differences though, some cultural, some biological. Despite the way it looks, Faey, ah, "wantonness" isn't entirely cultural. Their loose attitude towards sex is actually based on their slightly different biological drives, an evolutionary alteration from humans based on their telepathic ability. Faey females didn't evolve needing to play "hard to get" to secure and keep a mate, since their telepathic powers formed a pair bond that kept their male with them. But the need to pair-bond is still the main driving force behind most of their activity, just like in human females. It's why Faey women search for a husband, but unlike human women, they'll go to much greater lengths to secure one, because males don't easily settle down. That's why Faey women so aggressive. It's not entirely because they're the dominant gender, it's because they are fulfilling the need to find a male to pair bond with. But, since they ARE the dominant gender, they're just like human men. They are the ones who have evolved with the biological aggression, not men, and they exhibit it in most ways a human male would. They have to be aggressive in order to secure a pair bond, to satisfy the biological need to mate and produce offspring. In Faey biology, the woman has to win the man, not the other way around. She does this any way she can, and sex is simply another tool in the arsenal to attain the objective, and a darn effective one at that. If it wasn't effective, they wouldn't have used it.

So they're not just sluts for the fun of it. Their sluttiness has grounds in Faey genetics. ;)

It's also why Faey males are the ones that play "hard to get." They instinctively know that the pair bond will secure them to one woman until death, not able to freely pursue any woman, so they resist it to satisfy their genetic need to spread their genes to as many offspring by as many female mates as possible.

And since culture is often an end result of biology, that's why the Faey have developed such loose ideas about the physical act of sex. Faey females evolved using sex as a weapon against men to try to lure them into a pair-bond relationship, and males are just males no matter how you look at them, so the Faey never developed any kind of social stigma about it.

Truth be told, it's the same in OUR biological history. Go look at the real history of some of the ancient civilizations, like the Romans, and you'll see that our "modern" views on sex would seem downright draconian to them, almost inconceivable. The only thing that caused modern society to adopt our views on sex was the influence of religion...an influence that Faey religious practices never adopted.

Thus Jason and Tim's "conversion" to Faey views on the matter. It's innately biological, it was just a matter of cultural upbringing. Since Jason is so much more disciplined than Tim, he clung to his cultural outlook much more strongly. It took Symone and Jyslin a long time to wear him down and make him see things their way. ;)
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Re: Other races capable of interbreeding? (Big Spoilers!)

Post by Hearly » Sun Jan 14, 2007 7:18 am

Fel, wouldn't that at least make the Faey wonder why Humans are so close to them Baring Gora's law, I mean no other species they've met so far are close enough that cross-breeding is possible, To me Gora's law is like trying to explain something using religion, and with how Curious Faey are I cannot believe some scientist (geneticist) hasn't wondered about it yet..

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Re: Other races capable of interbreeding? (Big Spoilers!)

Post by Fel » Sun Jan 14, 2007 7:31 am

There's just enough similarity there to assuade most curiosity.

Remember, there are SOME interchanging species that can produce offspring. That means they are genetically compatible UP TO A POINT. And even in the ones that aren't, there's still some genetic similarity to produce animals with similar appearances and behaviors. Since the DNA between interchanged species does exhibit similarities, there's enough basis for the Faey to conclude that in the case of the humans and the Faey, there was a nearly perfectly identical evolutionary progression to produce two species that look almost identical and have enough genetic compatibility to interbreed. Outside of the ears and the skin/hair color, humans and Faey are virtually identical.
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Re: Other races capable of interbreeding? (Big Spoilers!)

Post by Fiferguy » Sun Jan 14, 2007 3:49 pm

So it's kind of like Whitetail and Mule deer. Different species that can produce fertile offspring.

But we did get at least one part of our SWAG right... there was an advanced race that moved the two to where they were. My question though is this: Why are the Faey so much more advanced than the humans if they started at roughly the same time? Was there further outside influence in their history? Or were they just genetically smarter?

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Re: Other races capable of interbreeding? (Big Spoilers!)

Post by Lochar » Sun Jan 14, 2007 4:18 pm

Probably because of curiousity. A group of people are picked up and thrown lightyears across the galaxy. Even proto-sapiens would be wildly curious about the people that did it. I'm guessing a few hundred years of very quick mental development happened.

And I betcha I know either the name of the race or the leader of the people that moved the proto-Faey.

Trelle.

Because something like that just HAS to strongly influence Faey religion.
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Re: Other races capable of interbreeding? (Big Spoilers!)

Post by Fiferguy » Sun Jan 14, 2007 5:05 pm

Lochar wrote:Probably because of curiousity. A group of people are picked up and thrown lightyears across the galaxy. Even proto-sapiens would be wildly curious about the people that did it. I'm guessing a few hundred years of very quick mental development happened.

And I betcha I know either the name of the race or the leader of the people that moved the proto-Faey.

Trelle.

Because something like that just HAS to strongly influence Faey religion.
Could be the Trinity is the three people they had contact with...but the advanced civilization wouldn't have had to reveal themselves at all to the Faey when they moved them. A race that advanced would've been able to drug the entire population--making them just fall asleep and wake up in another place. Maybe they left behind some indication of themselves as a kind of reminder. I don't know, but I don't see why they would even be conscious of the move until afterward.

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Re: Other races capable of interbreeding? (Big Spoilers!)

Post by Spec8472 » Sun Jan 14, 2007 9:46 pm

Fiferguy wrote:So it's kind of like Whitetail and Mule deer. Different species that can produce fertile offspring.
Err... if they're both Deer -- then you're talking different breeds - not different species.

A more appropriate concept would be Horses and Donkeys mating, and producing Mules (which are infertile*). Both equines, but from different species.

* = There have been many attempts to make a Mule which is fertile** -- none have so far succeeded. They may be able to produce sperm or ova - but they fail to develop correctly when fertilised.

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Re: Other races capable of interbreeding? (Big Spoilers!)

Post by Quindo Ma » Sun Jan 14, 2007 11:29 pm

Fiferguy wrote:My question though is this: Why are the Faey so much more advanced than the humans if they started at roughly the same time? Was there further outside influence in their history? Or were they just genetically smarter?
Most likely, it was simply a matter of different development.
One, a "very very long time ago" is most likely meant to be in the tens of thousands of years, possibly even ranging into hundreds of thousands of years. Yes, the Neanderthal Fel spoke about went extinct some 20-30 thousand years ago, but they have been around much much much longer than that.
Second, even if we assume that the first Homo Sapiens Faey (snicker) evolved at the same speed as the Homo Sapiens Sapiens (us), then there's still a huge difference in development of the species itself. Something where it's no longer pure evolution, but technology and intellect that start dominating the progress.
If there had been
a) enough people concentrated in a very fertile area, something that has proven to be the prerequisite of a group of humans to become a high culture (who have arts, science, etc)
b) these were even just a few thousand years prior to first human high cultures (Egypt, Maya, etc)
c) less or no moronic religious cults with radical ideas of "god is all powerful, progress is bad"
then you would have a very good chance of actually becoming a space faring race much earlier than we are. Add to the fact that with their telepathy they could easily gather intel, steal technology, or subdue a few other non-telepathic species they encounter, and you have a quite good start already.

It's not that difficult now is it? :)

Imagine just for a moment where we would be now if there hadn't been the dark ages (inquisition anyone?) perpetrated by the Christian belief system throughout the thousand years prior to the renaissance (and then some).

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Re: Other races capable of interbreeding? (Big Spoilers!)

Post by Fiferguy » Mon Jan 15, 2007 12:31 am

Quindo Ma wrote:
Fiferguy wrote:My question though is this: Why are the Faey so much more advanced than the humans if they started at roughly the same time? Was there further outside influence in their history? Or were they just genetically smarter?
Most likely, it was simply a matter of different development.
One, a "very very long time ago" is most likely meant to be in the tens of thousands of years, possibly even ranging into hundreds of thousands of years. Yes, the Neanderthal Fel spoke about went extinct some 20-30 thousand years ago, but they have been around much much much longer than that.
Second, even if we assume that the first Homo Sapiens Faey (snicker) evolved at the same speed as the Homo Sapiens Sapiens (us), then there's still a huge difference in development of the species itself. Something where it's no longer pure evolution, but technology and intellect that start dominating the progress.
If there had been
a) enough people concentrated in a very fertile area, something that has proven to be the prerequisite of a group of humans to become a high culture (who have arts, science, etc)
b) these were even just a few thousand years prior to first human high cultures (Egypt, Maya, etc)
c) less or no moronic religious cults with radical ideas of "god is all powerful, progress is bad"
then you would have a very good chance of actually becoming a space faring race much earlier than we are. Add to the fact that with their telepathy they could easily gather intel, steal technology, or subdue a few other non-telepathic species they encounter, and you have a quite good start already.

It's not that difficult now is it? :)

Imagine just for a moment where we would be now if there hadn't been the dark ages (inquisition anyone?) perpetrated by the Christian belief system throughout the thousand years prior to the renaissance (and then some).
Again, that assumes that we are alone in the universe. As alike as the Faey are to Humans, I believe that they also had a period like that in their history. And as rooted in tradition as they are--the neutrality of the medical corps, the Priests of Trelle being husbands of Trelle, etc.--there hints at some of the Super Conservativism that caused the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Malleus Maleficarum, the Patriot Act, etc. is not solely a human idea.

Notice that I said hints at. There is nothing definite until the Great Fel tells us we're all full of it and wrong. Or some of our conjecture could be right.

But it would be silly to assume that the Faey have always been a peaceful, benevolent society with no internal strife. We know they've had several titled civil wars, but I wonder how many other internal wars they've had, or even periods like our Inquisition. Of course, again we run into the problem of telepathy--the great equalizer. When you know the mind of the other person, things such as the Inquisition become much shorter, because all you have to do is beat the offender until they can't hold their defenses any longer, then invade their mind. Then the process is done.

But I believe that the Faey are as capable as Humans in abusing their own. If there's one thing that I've learned in human history is that we are capable of unlimited cruelty toward not only their fellows, but other species as well. And don't mistake this, I'm not speaking of hunting or fishing or even laboratory testing on animals. I'm speaking about the Inquisition, the Holocaust, the US Army/Marine's treatment of prisoners during this war, Atilla's, Rome, etc. The list is longer than my....arm.... But the point is this: Man has an unlimited amount of cruelty in them, and I believe that the Faey also have that quality. Maybe not now, but I believe it was earlier in their society, as it still exists in ours.

Something to ponder, during the high middle ages, an Inquisitor could keep a person alive for three weeks with half their insides laying outside... imagine what the Faey, with their advanced technology, could do to a person...

But I don't think that the Faey are that much advanced because they were peaceful unto themselves... everything we know about them actually suggests the opposite...

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Re: Other races capable of interbreeding? (Big Spoilers!)

Post by Suprmark » Mon Jan 15, 2007 5:21 am

Quindo Ma wrote: Imagine just for a moment where we would be now if there hadn't been the dark ages (inquisition anyone?) perpetrated by the Christian belief system throughout the thousand years prior to the renaissance (and then some).
I think we would be much farther back than we are now. Relevations come during (or just before) revolutions, and there wouldn't be such strong proponents of science if there wasn't so much persecution of scientists in the past. Indians, Chinese, Mayans, Ottomans, Persians all flourished during that period (though it depends on your definition of when the Dark Ages occurred) yet did not develop modern industrial techniques. It required minds that were willing to reject the notion that science was dependent on religion and philosophy to develop the body of science we have today.

I imagine it was their ability to communicate despite perhaps having different languages as well as their longer lifespans that allowed them to develop faster. Imagine where we would be if Galileo, who died a year before Newton was born, had lived to be his tutor and telepathically instruct him, then link minds with him to solve problems. Plus since Faey were very liberal sexually there would be plenty of babies to run around and increase the probability of geniuses. Maybe that ancient race left certain clues that allowed them to skip some of the deep questions humans ponder and so they had more time to fight. And develop more technology to fight better.

My theory that humans were Faey without talent exiled to a far corner of the universe and then forgotten seems to have been completely turned on its head in this topic unfortunately. :cry:

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Re: Other races capable of interbreeding? (Big Spoilers!)

Post by Quindo Ma » Mon Jan 15, 2007 1:41 pm

Fiferguy wrote:But I don't think that the Faey are that much advanced because they were peaceful unto themselves... everything we know about them actually suggests the opposite...
I never said that it was peace that caused them to develop faster. I said it was the absence of radical religious groups opposing progress to the point of regression, just to keep the gullible in line.
By the way, did you know that war, or conflict prior or after a war is actually the most potent drive for technological development?
What better way than to find out how to kill the other side faster while not becoming victim first? Plus, during these times a lot of laws, regulations, and morality get tossed out of the window.

The other big thing is to have enough people concentrated in one, or a few areas to have a lot of communication going on between the various "thinkers". As Suprmark said, if two geniuses could meet up and work it out together, then you have that much more credibility to advances.
Suprmark wrote:
Quindo Ma wrote: Imagine just for a moment where we would be now if there hadn't been the dark ages (inquisition anyone?) perpetrated by the Christian belief system throughout the thousand years prior to the renaissance (and then some).
I think we would be much farther back than we are now. Relevations come during (or just before) revolutions, and there wouldn't be such strong proponents of science if there wasn't so much persecution of scientists in the past. Indians, Chinese, Mayans, Ottomans, Persians all flourished during that period (though it depends on your definition of when the Dark Ages occurred) yet did not develop modern industrial techniques. It required minds that were willing to reject the notion that science was dependent on religion and philosophy to develop the body of science we have today.

I imagine it was their ability to communicate despite perhaps having different languages as well as their longer lifespans that allowed them to develop faster. Imagine where we would be if Galileo, who died a year before Newton was born, had lived to be his tutor and telepathically instruct him, then link minds with him to solve problems. Plus since Faey were very liberal sexually there would be plenty of babies to run around and increase the probability of geniuses. Maybe that ancient race left certain clues that allowed them to skip some of the deep questions humans ponder and so they had more time to fight. And develop more technology to fight better.

My theory that humans were Faey without talent exiled to a far corner of the universe and then forgotten seems to have been completely turned on its head in this topic unfortunately. :cry:
It's true that some big revelations came after a revolution, an oppression being overthrown, but the really big hindrance to our technological development 1500 hundred years ago was that the people in power, mostly behind the guise of religion, brainwashed nearly everyone into believing that progress was bad. That new ideas were the devil, and that you would go to hell for having them. That is what I'm talking about.
Well, that, and the fact that most people during those times were too damn starved to do much other than hunt/gather more, eat, and fight.

You need 3 things to advance technologically:
You need enough people concentrated in one area.
You need to them all to be without worry for food, water, or other absolutely basic things required for survival.
You need to have the willingness to accept a new idea, and not someone in charge who will kill everyone who has new ideas.

If you have those three things, then it doesn't matter at what level of development they are, they will start thinking about how to do things differently, how to do them better, what else is behind the next door, etc. etc.

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Re: Other races capable of interbreeding? (Big Spoilers!)

Post by hawkstarr » Mon Jan 15, 2007 1:58 pm

You need 3 things to advance technologically:
You need enough people concentrated in one area.
You need to them all to be without worry for food, water, or other absolutely basic things required for survival.
You need to have the willingness to accept a new idea, and not someone in charge who will kill everyone who has new ideas.
Actually, you need 4 things.

A problem or need for the new idea. Idea = Solution.

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Re: Other races capable of interbreeding? (Big Spoilers!)

Post by Quindo Ma » Mon Jan 15, 2007 2:51 pm

hawkstarr wrote:Actually, you need 4 things.

A problem or need for the new idea. Idea = Solution.
Ah yes, but the universe is full of problems, even if you can't see the forest for all the trees.
Yes, you do "need" a problem, but it really isn't hard to find one, and if you have those 3 things I mentioned combined, then those people will start looking elsewhere for "problems" to "fix". :)

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Re: Other races capable of interbreeding? (Big Spoilers!)

Post by afrigeek » Mon Jan 15, 2007 3:12 pm

Actually I would disagree with the view held here. I think that most innovation actually occurs during times of war! most of the most useful technologies we have are actually by products of war technologies turned to peaceful use.
GPS was meant for military use. We would have taken far longer to have nuclear power if it hadn't been for World War II, gyroscopes and other imrpoved devices for planes were all invented during times of war.

So i would suggest that the reason the Faey probably developed even mroe than humans is that they are more prone to conflict than humans.
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