From Terra with Love

Suprmark
Talent
Posts: 4
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2007 6:29 pm

From Terra with Love

Post by Suprmark » Sat Jan 13, 2007 9:38 pm

Fel, you probably don't remember me- I haven't posted since the old forum - but part of Sub has gotten me very curious. Why did you make Jason a communist? I should probably explain why I think he's a communist now: when he first goes out into the wild he's disgusted with the gangs' infighting - but that's exactly what capitalism is, dog eat dog survival of the fittest. Then he and Symone began the glorious revolution in chapter 8, and re-reading it resolved that nagging problem in the back of my head - how could Jason lead a set of very independent people with so little time and trouble? Most communist regimes executed dissidents, but thanks to Symone Jason simply didn't allow them to enter his community at all. Mayors are extremely busy, with little time to research new technologies, but not if everyone thinks the same way they do and accepts every decision without arguement. The whole town ws pretty much run on a central economic model, and it didn't matter who did what, they all pretty much got the same food, same comforts - although perhaps a few more for Dear Leader and his close personal friends. Things didn't change too much after they went to Colorado, actually his inner party grew even more isolated from the workers, who didn't seem to mind at all working what seemed to me 16 hour days pumping out whatever Jason wanted them to make. No parties, no evenings off to sit back with a beer and watch the game or a movie. And despite the fact they all were learning to fly, none of them actually went out while Jason was in charge, only his inner circle. This part of the story also bugged me - these supposedly were people who were so independent they couldn't live under the Faey system, but had no problems doing exactly what Jason told them. And the latest clue that Jason is a communist was his Chairman Mao inspired idea of sending absolutely everyone out to the farms, even if just for a few months at a time. Funny that although America won the Cold War, an American communist would bring the enitre world under its sway.

On a side note I've really enjoyed reading your writing Fel and hope you take a break before you start writing your next oddesy. Part of what made the Firestaff series so amazing was how you described the conflicts Tarrin went through - emotional, mental, physical, both internally and externally. I enjoyed the plot of Subjugation and was willing to accept that there are people with such amazing physical and mental skills, but my problem with Jason was he never really struggled. "That's a good idea, here's how to flesh it out and complete it - it will take/took X days" seemed to be a common theme. Not that your writing is poor now, rather that your earlier writing was a little more focused on the process than the end result, and I personally feel that is a better style. Just a suggestion, feel free to ignore me - I'm sure the others on this forum won't after suggesting you take a bit of a break :D .

User avatar
Hearly
Speed Racer!
Posts: 1077
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2004 5:06 am

Re: From Terra with Love

Post by Hearly » Sat Jan 13, 2007 9:55 pm

I don't know if I would say it's Communism, maybe a bit of Socialism..

But Think if this also, Until he started the Legion, Most Things were decided by either the "city" council, or by a Full vote of the Community, Once he started Legion, he told them it wouldn't be run by Committee he would be the one leading it, In those situations, It's the same way the US military is run, the General tells people below what to do, and they do it or they get dismissed..

Now, After he was awarded the Contract, He thought about the best and most fair way to handle the farms, these people are not going to go and not be paid, they will be paid, and allowed to come back to the normal life, to me thats more fair, than people being sent there perma, I mean he might even be able to make it Profitable enough, that the Market economy could produce enough of the food..

Sangoma
Initiate
Posts: 27
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 8:50 pm

Re: From Terra with Love

Post by Sangoma » Sat Jan 13, 2007 11:07 pm

If you think about it logically, it is Communism, but, you have to take into account that despite American sentiment, Communism actually works. Every country with an army has a Communist structure with the higher ups who have more privillages than the lower downs. When Jason started Legion he had to do it that way, Legion was not a right wing political group, they were armed disidants, or rebels if you will. When Legion was formed, your Communism was formed and now that he has terra he is allowed to change it into a Constitutional Monarchy, House Karinne will actually rule while giving some executive powers to the local populace.
Your local Witch Doctor

lapland
Katzh-dashi
Posts: 131
Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:31 am
Location: Iowa, USA

Re: From Terra with Love

Post by lapland » Sun Jan 14, 2007 12:23 am

I think you're confusing communism and monarchy. They are not the same. Communism is not where the elite have greater access. Although human nature within communism does create a system like that. Communism is where everyone is suppose to do all they can and get what they need in return. A monarch is a system where the elite has all the power and they do as they please with those under them. This is the Fay system.

Jason first tries to establish a democrecy inside the reserve with leanings toward military rule. Even in our democratic society we have military rules. If natural or man made disasters fall we all have to follow protocals to insure for immediate servival. This is not declaring communism. Jason is forming a military. He is the General, and he has asked for volunteers to join his military campaign. That is decidedly anti-communist. It is purely American Democrecy because America is the only country with an all volunteer military. However once you join you are required to fulfill your obligations under military rule.

Communism asserts an individuals place within society. Permantly placing individuals where it deams best and controls everything about them, from their beliefs to their daily activities. It is clear Jason provides entertainment possibilities, but everyone knows their are limited methods of leaving the protections and still be safe. Those methods are researved for military purposes because of limited equipment. This is standard military rule.

To be in the Fay system Terra has to become part of a monarch. Jason had to declair himself to be a monarch and capable of ruling under the fudal system. That doesn't mean he will allow a fudal system to stay in place as the only rule of Terra. The Fays came and displaced eight billion people. He can't simply go in and turn everyone free. That would be both stupid and suicidal for the human race. He must start with the system currently in place (Monarch) and transform it into a democrecy.

This will not be an easy job. Just as President Bush is finding in Iraq. Some will want it quicker then others. Some will want a different form of government. Some will even confuse his form of government for communism. He is responsible for Earth. He doesn't have the luxery to experiment. He has to get it right the first time. There are rules he must be a part of or the human race looses. Yes, it will eventually be a constitutional monarchy, not a full democrecy. That is what is required in the Fay system. Jason can't do otherwise, if he wants democrecy. Constitutional Monarchy like what the UK has is still democrecy. If, as he hopes he can convence the entire Fay Imperium to adopt democrecy he may be able to have a full and free democrecy. But for now he MUST remain under the rule of the Imperium.

Militaries are and will always be ruled under Military powers. They are simply military, not democrecy, communism, or others. Jason's military is a military. They may be considered rebels, terrorist, etc, but they are a military and under military rule. To classify them otherwise is to insult every soldior in the world.

Your idea that Jason is a communist is far from accurate. He is a realist fighting for democrecy. He is decidedly a conservitive instead of liberal because liberals would just try to turn it immediately into a democrecy and watch as the world falls apart with civil war with millions dieing. A conservative uses planned stages to reach a stated goal. Jason has steps in mind to reach his goal.

One of the first steps is that he MUST maintain the food supply. This is unquestionably the most important responsibility he has for the short term. This requires a military rule in place. Jason does not like doing that but he does want if fair. Eventually I see him hiring regular farmers. They would have to be honored as protectors of democrecy, because the only way Terra can remain democratic is if they maintain the food supply to the imperium. For now, until all eight billion people can be given free raign in an orderly manner and full democrecy rules on Terra he has to keep a tight reign on the proceedings.

Jason is a reluctent conservative democratic constitutional monarch.

User avatar
Fiferguy
Cloudy, 12C, to -2C o/n with a chance of scattered postings
Posts: 1364
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 5:03 pm
Location: Kidarn Mountains of Dolaria
Contact:

Re: From Terra with Love

Post by Fiferguy » Sun Jan 14, 2007 12:24 am

Sangoma wrote:If you think about it logically, it is Communism, but, you have to take into account that despite American sentiment, Communism actually works. Every country with an army has a Communist structure with the higher ups who have more privillages than the lower downs. When Jason started Legion he had to do it that way, Legion was not a right wing political group, they were armed disidants, or rebels if you will. When Legion was formed, your Communism was formed and now that he has terra he is allowed to change it into a Constitutional Monarchy, House Karinne will actually rule while giving some executive powers to the local populace.
It wasn't a communism, it was a military control structure. A commander and his troops. Nothing more or less. And I think that it won't be a Constitutional Monarchy, per se. According to what Fel has said and what is in the story, he's basically going to turn Earth back over to the Terrans, while he gets Karrine back up on its feet. Terra will function on a world government with the UN as the governing body, with Imperial Marine oversight. The only Faey/Karinne involvement will be at first, in making sure that the quotas are met. But as the Terrans get to the point of self-reliability, their involvement will be minimal, and mostly like a police force.

Before, it may have been more communism/socialism. I'm more inclined to call it a pure democracy though. When someone would come into the community, Symone would "interview" them, making sure they were safe. Then the community would vote as a whole to let them into the community or not.

But after they moved to the mountain, it became a very clear military society. And in the military, you have commanders, sub-commanders and troops. With the people in the mountain, since they weren't that many to begin with, we basically only saw Jason (the Commander), his sub-commanders (Jyslin, Tim, Symone, etc.) and the troops (everyone else).

User avatar
Fel
Weavespinner
Posts: 1832
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2003 6:04 pm

Re: From Terra with Love

Post by Fel » Sun Jan 14, 2007 7:11 am

lol, well, fine, I'll tell ya. ;)

What Jason did with Earth was reinstate all the nations and reformed the United Nations, but the United Nations is the real government. Nations become like states, handling local laws and local issues, with the UN overseeing on a global scale.

The only changes he made was to break the UN into two separate parliamentary entities, and he absolutely forbade armed insurrection against any government, on pain of death. The governments that had official UN recognition when the Subjugation were the ones that take back over. So anyone who tries to start or restart a local civil war to overthrow a government will be dealt with by the Marines, in a permanent manner.

Jason does have ultimate control as the President of the UN. But, the Secretary General handles most of the issues. It's kinda like the British system, where Jason is the monarch, but the Prime Minister does the real work. Unlike the modern British system, though, Jason maintains real power. Jason only created the position for himself to overrule the UN if he thought they were about to do something really stupid. He'll just let them run things themselves and only step in if they're about to do something crazy.
Just another guy from the shallow end of the gene pool.

User avatar
Hearly
Speed Racer!
Posts: 1077
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2004 5:06 am

Re: From Terra with Love

Post by Hearly » Sun Jan 14, 2007 7:14 am

Fel wrote:lol, well, fine, I'll tell ya. ;)

What Jason did with Earth was reinstate all the nations and reformed the United Nations, but the United Nations is the real government. Nations become like states, handling local laws and local issues, with the UN overseeing on a global scale.

The only changes he made was to break the UN into two separate parliamentary entities, and he absolutely forbade armed insurrection against any government, on pain of death. The governments that had official UN recognition when the Subjugation were the ones that take back over. So anyone who tries to start or restart a local civil war to overthrow a government will be dealt with by the Marines, in a permanent manner.

Jason does have ultimate control as the President of the UN. But, the Secretary General handles most of the issues. It's kinda like the British system, where Jason is the monarch, but the Prime Minister does the real work. Unlike the modern British system, though, Jason maintains real power. Jason only created the position for himself to overrule the UN if he thought they were about to do something really stupid. He'll just let them run things themselves and only step in if they're about to do something crazy.
Can't wait to read all about it in Chapter 20.. :twisted:

User avatar
Fel
Weavespinner
Posts: 1832
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2003 6:04 pm

Re: From Terra with Love

Post by Fel » Sun Jan 14, 2007 7:24 am

Actually, it's mentioned, like, once, and that's it.

So far, most of the chapter has been about Jason juggling Dahnai, on several fronts: political, social, personal. It's also been about him trying to help Dahnai find ways to stop the civil war that they can both see creeping up on the horizon.

Trillane was just a symptom, not an isolated incident. Much of the early part of the chapter is mainly Dahnai trying to draw Jason into the matter on her side, because he's a Karinne and she knows that the Karinnes were much more than they pretended to be.

Oh, and Fifer: Dahnai, having "the hots" for Jason? Have you no shame? She goes practically half the chapter before seducing him, and that was only because she did something really naughty to him and had to apologize, in that special way that only a Faey woman can that proves how sorry she is! But she doesn't have "the hots" for Jason. Nuh uh.

Well, NOW she does. Let's just say that Jyslin trained him well.
Just another guy from the shallow end of the gene pool.

User avatar
Hearly
Speed Racer!
Posts: 1077
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2004 5:06 am

Re: From Terra with Love

Post by Hearly » Sun Jan 14, 2007 7:29 am

Fel wrote:Actually, it's mentioned, like, once, and that's it.

So far, most of the chapter has been about Jason juggling Dahnai, on several fronts: political, social, personal. It's also been about him trying to help Dahnai find ways to stop the civil war that they can both see creeping up on the horizon.

Trillane was just a symptom, not an isolated incident. Much of the early part of the chapter is mainly Dahnai trying to draw Jason into the matter on her side, because he's a Karinne and she knows that the Karinnes were much more than they pretended to be.

Oh, and Fifer: Dahnai, having "the hots" for Jason? Have you no shame? She goes practically half the chapter before seducing him, and that was only because she did something really naughty to him and had to apologize, in that special way that only a Faey woman can that proves how sorry she is! But she doesn't have "the hots" for Jason. Nuh uh.

Well, NOW she does. Let's just say that Jyslin trained him well.
Bad fel, heh :P Makes us want the chapter that much more, so Hypothetically If he would Marry her (using the white rose you mentioned earlier) what would happen to House Karinne?

Edit: You could also post chapter 20 in 2 parts.. *wink*

User avatar
Fel
Weavespinner
Posts: 1832
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2003 6:04 pm

Re: From Terra with Love

Post by Fel » Sun Jan 14, 2007 7:39 am

If Dahnai married Jason, he'd still be the Grand Duke Karinne, and would remain in the House Karinne. Not even marriage to the Empress can unseat him from his house leadership position, but, since she IS the Empress, he'd become part of Merrane. He'd be a member of two houses, with two separate titles. He'd be the Grand Duke Jason Karinne, but also the Royal Consort Jason Merrane. But, it's tradition to go with just one title, so they would be combined for the purposes of announcing him and referring to him. He would then be the Grand Duke Royal Consort Jason Merrane Karinne. His Grand Duke title would outrank the title of Royal Consort, so it would be first. And since his Karinne title would outrank his Merrane title, the name of Karinne would come last.

That'd be one hell of a proper name: Grand Duke Royal Consort Jason Augustus Fox Shaddale Merrane Karinne.

I'd hate to have to write something like THAT.
Just another guy from the shallow end of the gene pool.

User avatar
Fiferguy
Cloudy, 12C, to -2C o/n with a chance of scattered postings
Posts: 1364
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 5:03 pm
Location: Kidarn Mountains of Dolaria
Contact:

Re: From Terra with Love

Post by Fiferguy » Sun Jan 14, 2007 3:39 pm

Fel wrote:Oh, and Fifer: Dahnai, having "the hots" for Jason? Have you no shame? She goes practically half the chapter before seducing him, and that was only because she did something really naughty to him and had to apologize, in that special way that only a Faey woman can that proves how sorry she is! But she doesn't have "the hots" for Jason. Nuh uh.

Well, NOW she does. Let's just say that Jyslin trained him well.
LOL... I told you so... :twisted: It took a little time, but in the end, I was right. :twisted:

Suprmark
Talent
Posts: 4
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2007 6:29 pm

Re: From Terra with Love

Post by Suprmark » Sun Jan 14, 2007 6:18 pm

lapland wrote: Jason first tries to establish a democrecy inside the reserve with leanings toward military rule. Even in our democratic society we have military rules. If natural or man made disasters fall we all have to follow protocals to insure for immediate servival. This is not declaring communism. Jason is forming a military. He is the General, and he has asked for volunteers to join his military campaign. That is decidedly anti-communist. It is purely American Democrecy because America is the only country with an all volunteer military. However once you join you are required to fulfill your obligations under military rule.
I think you are confusing democracy and capitalism. Democracy is rule by the people - voting for your leaders. Capitalism is owning the means of production and using them to create profit based on the free market system. Communism is shared ownership of the means of production, and distributing those products based on the common good. As I experienced living in China, it is possible to have a democracy within an Communist state. Although I'm unclear on many of the details, local communist leaders were elected, although most people weren't interested in voting. What we see in most communist countries is the "transitional" dictatorship that doesn't really go away.

When Jason first arrived, Temika was driving all sorts of produce between the different squatters - free-market capitalism. When he founded his town all the food was made common, electricity was common, the replicator he bought was for common use; labour was distributed based on skill level, not desire. One might argue that this could be acheived through a military-style government, but militaries are definitely not democracies. And Jason's decision to turn to military tactics occured only after he found out about the slavery. BTW, the last I looked China has an all-volunteer military, as do many other countries.
lapland wrote: Communism asserts an individuals place within society. Permantly placing individuals where it deams best and controls everything about them, from their beliefs to their daily activities. It is clear Jason provides entertainment possibilities, but everyone knows their are limited methods of leaving the protections and still be safe. Those methods are researved for military purposes because of limited equipment. This is standard military rule.
There is a great deal of propaganda in Western countries about how (bad) people in Communist countries lives are, and a great deal of propaganda there about how bad certain things are here. Communist governments hardly control everything about an individual, but yes the education system there is less about independent thought, there have been certain community obligations, and a centrally planned economy is a disaster. However, I don't really want to get into a debate about what communism is like in practice in the real world, just in Jason's world.

I look at Jason's idea of having everyone share the burden of farming as similar to the ideal of classlessness in communism, everyone needs to share in that burden - and he doesn't seem like the type of guy who would allow someone to buy their way out of that duty. Of course that is pretty naieve, as is his decision to divide the world up back into the UN recognized countries - I would argue that many of the problems we face globally are due to territorial disputes. As an example of what might happen if he did that, China would almost definitely take over Taiwan, as it isn't recognized by the UN. But perhaps those sorts of problems are what Jason will have to face in a second book?

User avatar
Fiferguy
Cloudy, 12C, to -2C o/n with a chance of scattered postings
Posts: 1364
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 5:03 pm
Location: Kidarn Mountains of Dolaria
Contact:

Re: From Terra with Love

Post by Fiferguy » Sun Jan 14, 2007 9:30 pm

Ah, but the Marines are there to stop any of the kind of fighting that we used to have about it. And with the global institution of free travel, a basic right to any Imperial citizen, a lot of those problems will evaporate. Why would there be a border dispute if there isn't truly an independent border? As Fel has described it, the new "country borders" will be similar to US State borders, or political subdivisions in the UK. Basically, except for local taxes and local administration, there isn't much of a border there. I would imagine that the new system will be a lot freer than the old system, especially with the poorer countries of the world where there is a lack of resources for simple life. Jason and the UN will be able to distribute food to the people that need it, and with the help of the Marines, keep peace on Earth.

Suprmark
Talent
Posts: 4
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2007 6:29 pm

Re: From Terra with Love

Post by Suprmark » Sun Jan 14, 2007 10:45 pm

Fiferguy wrote:Ah, but the Marines are there to stop any of the kind of fighting that we used to have about it.
True you have a point there, but if another Jason-like character (after all if there is one there can always be another - potentially even more effective, athough unlikely) decided he or she didn't like the new system that character would wage war against Imperial forces rather than house forces.

I'm just speculating on potential problems Jason might face on planet Earth, as I'm too cynical to believe all of humanity's problems can be solved by an alien race arriving and giving us a whole bunch of technology and a democratic and peaceful world, and all they ask in return is a lot of food. That's obviously not what actually happened, but it seems like the state that Earth is in now that Jason is in control. But now Trillane also has an army of human drones, some of which might be telepathic, hates Jason's guts, and perhaps will try to undermine him. Ah, speculation... :lol:

User avatar
Hearly
Speed Racer!
Posts: 1077
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2004 5:06 am

Re: From Terra with Love

Post by Hearly » Sun Jan 14, 2007 10:54 pm

Suprmark wrote: True you have a point there, but if another Jason-like character (after all if there is one there can always be another - potentially even more effective, athough unlikely) decided he or she didn't like the new system that character would wage war against Imperial forces rather than house forces.

I'm just speculating on potential problems Jason might face on planet Earth, as I'm too cynical to believe all of humanity's problems can be solved by an alien race arriving and giving us a whole bunch of technology and a democratic and peaceful world, and all they ask in return is a lot of food. That's obviously not what actually happened, but it seems like the state that Earth is in now that Jason is in control. But now Trillane also has an army of human drones, some of which might be telepathic, hates Jason's guts, and perhaps will try to undermine him. Ah, speculation... :lol:
Jason Received a LOT more help than he even realizes from the Empress, With trying to Hide him, etc., I'd bet no one else could really do what Jason did without outside support Jason Received.

Now could someone else do it? Maybe, but very very doubtfull.

Locked