Why exactly did Earth surrender?

[Lochar]

[However, some things are easier done the "old way" and farming is one of them. Plants rely on gravity to "decide" which way to send roots and which way to send stems, branches and and leaves. Gravity is also a useful tool in many day to day activities. Planets provide gravity, air, food, water and raw materials.

As a side-note: ever heard of hydroponics? Besides, I would think that there are some (many?) planets, which can support agriculture, perhaps after some terraforming, but which has no intelligent species. Unless Faey wanted cheap/free workforce for their farms as well...

And that could actually make for a decent reason to join the Imperium as well. Overcrowded planet? We've got one we just terraformed. We'd like about 2/3 of your population that moves to it to make sure it grows food, but it's a great starter home!

[Shadowhawk]

[...] Besides, I would think that there are some (many?) planets, which can support agriculture, perhaps after some terraforming, but which has no intelligent species. Unless Faey wanted cheap/free workforce for their farms as well...

And that could actually make for a decent reason to join the Imperium as well. Overcrowded planet? We've got one we just terraformed. We'd like about 2/3 of your population that moves to it to make sure it grows food, but it's a great starter home!

Unless even with the Faey technology actual terraforming of the planets (even if they are inside eco-zone) is above it, too hard yet. Or perhaps Faye, due to some quirk in their intelligence, upbringing, cultural taboos or prejudiecs they cannot gotten the idea of terraformization.

[Were_Fan]

[However, some things are easier done the "old way" and farming is one of them. Plants rely on gravity to "decide" which way to send roots and which way to send stems, branches and and leaves. Gravity is also a useful tool in many day to day activities. Planets provide gravity, air, food, water and raw materials.

As a side-note: ever heard of hydroponics? Besides, I would think that there are some (many?) planets, which can support agriculture, perhaps after some terraforming, but which has no intelligent species. Unless Faey wanted cheap/free workforce for their farms as well...

Well .... ummm .... yeah .... I've heard of hydroponics.

If you read the post you are replying to, you will see hydroponics mentioned. As mentioned in the post, hydroponics has its own set of problems. A major problem is containment. On a planet, you can drip or spray nutrient solutions exactly where you need them. Can't do that in zero gee and fertilizer on leaves/food/fruit could have a bad effect.

As previously mentioned, gravity is a necessity for stable plant growth. Leaves and roots in a tangle generally don't provide a good crop. So, unless you like processed algae, zero gee is out regardless of cost or other factors.

The international space station uses food launched from the ground instead of growing it via hydroponics. Wonder why? A few, no, several hundred square feet per person of hydroponics launched into orbit would be hideously expensive compared to a few dollars/euros/yen/credits to plant the same area on a planet.

OTOH, hydroponics and/or conventional farming on a planet could be used. Given available cheap power, multiple story farm buildings could make sense. You have gravity and atmosphere without worring about trivial problems as meteorites which wouldn't be so trivial problems for large space farms.

Of course, I think we have all missed a major point. If space farms worked, the Faey would build them at their planets instead of building them in other systems.

--
Jim/Were Fan

[J-Man5]

And another point is the indigenious plant and animal life that are edible to the Faey and the rest of the Imperium. Remember about Stawberries and Lobster. How they had just been cleared for transport off planet and that they were an expected new delicacy. Thats something you get from conquoring (sp?) a new planet that you don't get by staying home.

J-Man5

[furry_wolf2001b]

I am shure you wuld wish to die rather then being alive and possible get the upper hand later.
But we others that actualy survives wull bow down and hope fore better days..

Is that clear enuf anticarrot?

Oh and about harvesting crops and stuff..

You sprout things that you can know nothing about, becuse they (as far as i know/remeber) havent been broght up in the story.

There can be MANNY reasons why concering earth wuld be a good idea.

And when to do it too.

They have know about us fore a while now, i dunno how long exactly.
But they wuld know -ewrything- i think they wuld need to know to take us ower.

And they know right now we can be taken ower pretty esoly and without much troubles.

In the future that might not be true.

Personally i think if there are aliens out there in rl, that are observing us, they wont be bothering with us unless we becomes a threat, like if we developt a ftl engine, or sent out sores of cold sleep ships.
(a localised problem can be soo easy to wipe out)

Building a farm in space is not that easy, and you still have to suply either the soil or nutrients to the wather fore it.

Then are the harvesting and resycling and long time were and tear on the whole prosess.

Plus it takes time and a whole lot of resorses.

Terraforming is not a fast thing.
Probably you only have mineral rock and wather/ice to work with.

Shure domed farms culd be made alot esyer then terraforming a whole planet tho.

Still you need the soil and whater and seed and workforse.
Unless you got robots fore the whole thing, witch in turn need to be maintaind.

Then is the transport issue.
(ok, maby thats not a huge problem)

But you have forgotten something.

Its not economickal.
(damd spelling, i am sorry people, fore this horribly mangling of the language)

Plus they seem to need LOADS of food, not simply enuf to suply fore a cuple of citys.

All that effort put in to space greenhuses culd be spent on something else, like bulding actual ships to defend with.
(or attack)

And still they might have green houses here and there.
We dont know, yet, if they have anny.

Or had, as the point might be.
Or have you forgotten that anny station wuld need to be defended?

And it wuld deliver food pretty regulary and get soild/whater regulary so you cant simply hide em all..

And like anny space indestry, a quick raid might take out ALOT of em.

Earth atleast has atmosphere to proteckt iself somewhat.

And a nuke or something wuldent take it ALL out.
Ewen if a hydrogen bomb rain wuld make a BIG mess of things, so what.
The elves might clean it up ewentually and contine to farm.

Same thing on a space farm and it is toast forewer.
Unless you count the molten metall..


Then you have another reason taking ower earth.
(ok there are sewral REAL obvius ones atleast)

One is taking it ower to keep it out of the hands of the enemy.
Another is its location might be good either as a buffer or a backup if things goes sour.

Still more reasons is the pure labor presented in the population.
Sure right now it is consentraded on farms, and farming.
But that dosent mean it culdent be in the long run a werry important addition to the factory and more advanced producktion needed.

A place to set up an outpost and possibly a minor colony culd be werry atractive considering there are a war on, and ewen if it only splits the atention of an enemy, that culd be important.

Ewentually having a whole planet population adn another race to help defending the empire might be desisive in the survival in the long run.

Its an Empire fore.. err gods sake, just becuse house trillian(or whatsits name) is a bloody gready fool and handling the whole operation in a maner that is foolhardy dosent mean the empress and or senate (or whatewer they have) have a plan or a good reason fore doing as they do.
Or did annyway.

One reason culd be your higly walued satelite farms had got caght in a raide/war/skirmish and got hurt bad, and posibly destroyd fore a large part.
It culd be a planet that culd have been hit that was the farm fore a large part of the empire.

We dont know what happend.

So while your ashes cools from the suit case bomb youwhere carrying left.
The rest of us that are alive will grind our theath and NOT strap nukes on our chest to die valiantly fore a lost cause.

We are not pre sient and able to know what will happen in the future.
But neither are we fools enuf that we will kill ourselves needlessly when there are anny hope fore life.

Shure there are people(or fools) that will fight, ewen if they will accomplish annything more then a -minor- inconviniense fore their lives.

And if your actions threthens the lives of me and mine, you are going to face not only the "elves".

Kill my children will you!

*Bang. thud*

[ANTIcarrot]

I am shure you wuld wish to die rather then being alive and possible get the upper hand later. <snip> *Bang. thud*

None of which explains why humanity felt they had to surrender.

[Hearly]

I am shure you wuld wish to die rather then being alive and possible get the upper hand later. <snip> *Bang. thud*

None of which explains why humanity felt they had to surrender.

Look at it this way..

I Cop has a gun on you and you have a very dull knife, and he's about 20 feet away from you.. What are you going to do? Rush him? or Surrender?

This is probably the way the world felt... (or at least the leaders..)

[Spec8472]

I am shure you wuld wish to die rather then being alive and possible get the upper hand later.

* Bitchy Spelling Mode: ON*

"Would"
"Sure"
"Will"
"For"

C'mon, these are the basics.
If you're not even trying, then people are NOT going to take your argument seriously.

[ANTIcarrot]

If I've got six billion gang-mates though, then I'm going to feel pretty damn safe, even if we all have blunt knives, especially if that one cop only has 14 bullets in his gun.

Also if I believe I have a valuable hostage (AKA: Earth itself - and there's precious little on the planet they'd want) then I'm also going to feel I'm in a position to at least negotiate - no matter what the cop says.

Then again - I'm a drugged up gangland street thug who *hates* cops and the idea of being sent to jail for life. I might attack anyway. Or I might run. Or I might just taunt him (Your father was a hamster, and your mother smelt of elderberries!) or I might just do any number of other things. Especially if the cop hasn't even drawn his gun yet.

By all accounts the cops in this case just showed up in their big shiny police cars, strobed their lights, wailed their siren, flashed their badge, struck dramatic poses, did not show, demonstrate, or prove any weapons - and everyone simply gave up.

I find no parallel for that in all of human history. Therefore I find it unbelievable; unless mind bending was involved.

[Hearly]

If I've got six billion gang-mates though, then I'm going to feel pretty damn safe, even if we all have blunt knives, especially if that one cop only has 14 bullets in his gun.

Also if I believe I have a valuable hostage (AKA: Earth itself - and there's precious little on the planet they'd want) then I'm also going to feel I'm in a position to at least negotiate - no matter what the cop says.

Then again - I'm a drugged up gangland street thug who *hates* cops and the idea of being sent to jail for life. I might attack anyway. Or I might run. Or I might just taunt him (Your father was a hamster, and your mother smelt of elderberries!) or I might just do any number of other things. Especially if the cop hasn't even drawn his gun yet.

By all accounts the cops in this case just showed up in their big shiny police cars, strobed their lights, wailed their siren, flashed their badge, struck dramatic poses, did not show, demonstrate, or prove any weapons - and everyone simply gave up.

I find no parallel for that in all of human history. Therefore I find it unbelievable; unless mind bending was involved.

Well, the shiny Police car just traveled billions of miles over terrain that we have bearly touched, that in-itself would be a good deminstration of "force"

[ANTIcarrot]

Disagree. You don't sabre-rattle with moon-rockets. Or with C-5 galaxys either for that matter. It's a very impressive display of technology - but only indirectly a threat. And even then not an effective one.

Western militaries after all have extensive experience of how air-strikes alone do not win wars.

[Lochar]

Yeah, but if they could bomb the living shit out of the whole planet and make it generally uninhabitable for humans but still viable for some type of farming, what's to stop them from doing that?

[Were_Fan]

Disagree. You don't sabre-rattle with moon-rockets. Or with C-5 galaxys either for that matter. It's a very impressive display of technology - but only indirectly a threat. And even then not an effective one.

Western militaries after all have extensive experience of how air-strikes alone do not win wars.

I think you severely misunderstand the magnitude of the threat that would be posed posed by an instellar conqueror. The magnitude would be many orders greater than that between a cop with a gun and a criminal with a dull knife. It would be more like a baby shaking a rattle at a battle tank.

You would have had NO hope of inflicting any damage on the Faey or their ship. On the other hand, they can literally throw rocks at you as kinetic weapons. Dust thrown up by the impacts causes crop failures on top of massive casualties. Long before they run out of raw materials from the asteroid belt, Earth population would be near zero. Then it would be a simple matter of eradicating the starving survivors.

[Lochar]

Disagree. You don't sabre-rattle with moon-rockets. Or with C-5 galaxys either for that matter. It's a very impressive display of technology - but only indirectly a threat. And even then not an effective one.

Western militaries after all have extensive experience of how air-strikes alone do not win wars.

I think you severely misunderstand the magnitude of the threat that would be posed posed by an instellar conqueror. The magnitude would be many orders greater than that between a cop with a gun and a criminal with a dull knife. It would be more like a baby shaking a rattle at a battle tank.

You would have had NO hope of inflicting any damage on the Faey or their ship. On the other hand, they can literally throw rocks at you as kinetic weapons. Dust thrown up by the impacts causes crop failures on top of massive casualties. Long before they run out of raw materials from the asteroid belt, Earth population would be near zero. Then it would be a simple matter of eradicating the starving survivors.

And then spending an extra few years cleaning up the air, and importing another compatible species onto the planet. End of the humans.

[furry_wolf2001b]

Sorry fore my atrocius spelling erlier.
Here are some more.

And a public apology to anti carrot fore my hars sleep deprived words.

I havent realy changed my mind tho.


One thing i arent realy shure that has been broght up.
Is how HUGe a planet is, and how much puinding it realy can take.

It can take alot, the planet iself that is, withouth protection of some sort (armord shelters with wather and food) the inhabitants are a bit exposed tho.

A whole planet producing crops is an enormus suplier.
Add to the modern mashinery and methods to turn ewen desserts to fertile soil and you have a wast surplus of food available.
Especially with minemum wage workers that the humans are(i think, house trillian has probably skimped their intended compensation down ewen then..)

Nothing of it is realy that expensive or hard fore the elvs to do too, and wuld be way way cheaper and fasterthen either terraforming a planet like mars or build a lot of space green houses..

Both the later options might still be done tho, as a new planet ewen if costly and time consuming, and difficult aswhell, wuld be a prime monny maker in the long run..

Umm, i dunno if they did anny powershow fore the world.
But one thing is, you got a telephatick race, wuld it be so hard to think they wuld prepare leeders and lobbyists fore the intended takower?

I dont remeber if they can influence people with their powers.

But they culd tow big lump of rock into orbit just as an implyed threat, or a outright spoken one at that.
Like;

See this BIG rock?
If you dont agree to play nice and do the sensible thing, we are going to drop it and about a chundred more down on the planet, real fast like.
You know what i mean?
Oh dont worry we will make shure not to hit you too hard, but rest ashurd there wont be annything left of your civilisation then scrap and some starved shellshoked survivors.
Oh And annyone gives us ruble, we can target them pretty precisly so we can write that bunch of pretty qickly.
I know you dont want annything like that to happen, so lets not be stupid and lets work togheter to make this so smooth and pain free as possible.

If needed(isert bribe here)

Hmm, i realy shuld re read the whole series to refreshen my memory of what is said/ impyed/ hinted at/ and to be possible, and what hasent been mentiond at all.