Why exactly did Earth surrender?

[ANTIcarrot]

Did the Faey just mind bend every world leader into giving up (and quickly make them dissapear afterwards) or was it something else? I mean some world leaders are quite psychotic (N Korea springs to mind) and I really don't see them just signing on the dotted line right beside America.

[Were_Fan]

Did the Faey just mind bend every world leader into giving up (and quickly make them dissapear afterwards) or was it something else? I mean some world leaders are quite psychotic (N Korea springs to mind) and I really don't see them just signing on the dotted line right beside America.

They had two choices ... surrender or die. If aliens show up in interstellar spaceships, all the ballistic missiles on Earth would be about as effective as spears against a battleship. While perhaps psychotic, N Korea and others such as Saddam are more on equal terms of military strength with the rest of the world. In addition, they may believe their bluffs won't be called. In the case of an interstellar spaceship in orbit with Star Trek type weapons, there isn't any way to bluff.
--
Jim/Were Fan

[Phantom]

Did the Faey just mind bend every world leader into giving up (and quickly make them dissapear afterwards) or was it something else? I mean some world leaders are quite psychotic (N Korea springs to mind) and I really don't see them just signing on the dotted line right beside America.

Fel answers this question in the first page of the prolog.
it was just one paragraph and not expanded on a lot but here it is again.

Faced with an enemy vastly superior in technology to their own, the nations of Earth met in the United Nations met for two solid weeks and debated furiously, but such a debate had only one ultimate conclusion. That conclusion was reached March 26th, 2005, when the Secretary General of the United Nations, Vladimir Kosparivic, formally and officially surrendered on behalf of all the nations of Earth.
Without firing a shot, without killing a single human being, the Faey Imperium conquered Earth.
And so, Earth became a farming colony under Faey control. The second major shock that the natives—as the Faey called them—discovered about their conquerors was that there was much more to them than first believed. The Faey were a telepathic species, and they used that telepathic power to quickly move in and root out all the resistance movements that had sprung up since their arrival. All Terran governments were dissolved, replaced by a feudalist system where a Faey noble held absolute power over his or her territory. At first, the humans held hope that their conquerors could somehow be overthrown, but it was a feeble one. In two months, the Faey Occupational Forces wiped out every band of organized resistance, leaving the humans with nothing but grim resignation of the lot that had been dealt to them.

Looks like the Faey removed all Goverments easily ....any that didn't were rolled over with little problem.


Phantom

[ANTIcarrot]

Fel answers this question in the first page of the prolog.

No, Fel said that they did, he never explained why. In the 1991 gulf war the Iraqi army faced a technologically superior military who had every conceivable advantage. They still fought, because that's what armies do. The Iraqi government (for good or for ill) stood up to the foreigners, because that's what a government is supposed to do.

What was it that made every single last government on Earth simultaneously and unanimously decide to throw away hundreds of years of good government policy and military theory - and just give up at the first hurdle?

That has never been explained, which is why I ask the question.

[ANTIcarrot]

They had two choices ... surrender or die. In addition, they may believe their bluffs won't be called. In the case of an interstellar spaceship in orbit with Star Trek type weapons, there isn't any way to bluff.

The way to bluff is say, "I don't believe you flew all this way just to conquer a radioactive rock."

Faey technology and industry is also not nearly as advanced as their science is. If it was they wouldn't need farming planets. In fact they wouldn't be interested in planets much at all, save for their asthetic value. The fact that they are would suggest that they are either children with big toys, or that they have a water-empire economy. both are thinggs you can fight. You might not win, but you can go down trying.

I simply find it unbelievable that they would surrender.

[Stealth_Dragon]

My bet is some of the really powerful telepaths maybe some mindbenders just walked into the governments and simply forced their will of the leaders.

[Spec8472]

The way to bluff is say, "I don't believe you flew all this way just to conquer a radioactive rock."

Bluffing against someone who can read your mind, and their scanners, is stupid, and just won't work.

Faey technology and industry is also not nearly as advanced as their science is. If it was they wouldn't need farming planets. In fact they wouldn't be interested in planets much at all, save for their asthetic value.

I don't understand how need for farming planets == not advanced tech/industry?

Its a very similar situation to highly populated cities here. For example, most major cities, if they didn't have vast swathes of fertile un-populated areas in which to grow food, would simply starve.
Without some form of matter replication, or advanced enough nano-technology to construct food atom-by-atom (eg The Diamond Age), you cant bypass this requirement.

In any case, growing food is much easier than attempting to mass-produce food artificially.

You might not win, but you can go down trying.

I simply find it unbelievable that they would surrender.

It depends upon your outlook on the world.
Is it better to die in a futile fight now, or wait for a more opportune moment in which to strike?

What about if being "conquored" by these invaders actually makes life better?
eg: Getting an education, food, water, medical care, etc.

To many people barely surving in a third-world country, or the poor areas of the US, getting the basics is more important than some fancy idea of freedom and liberty.

I think this quote by Bertolt Brecht sums it up nicely: "Grub first, then ethics."

[Hearly]

My understanding from what Fel wrote, That they decided to Surrender Officially, but were going to form rebel groups throughout there countries to fight them in that manner, but once they surrendered they found out there were telepath's, and that fact killed any type of Rebellion....

[Were_Fan]

They had two choices ... surrender or die. In addition, they may believe their bluffs won't be called. In the case of an interstellar spaceship in orbit with Star Trek type weapons, there isn't any way to bluff.

The way to bluff is say, "I don't believe you flew all this way just to conquer a radioactive rock."

You can bluff when your opponent thinks you may have a chance of winning, however slim that chance might be. When your opponent is sitting in an interstellar spacecraft out of reach of all of your weapons, you are not in a position to bluff.

Faey technology and industry is also not nearly as advanced as their science is. If it was they wouldn't need farming planets. In fact they wouldn't be interested in planets much at all, save for their asthetic value. The fact that they are would suggest that they are either children with big toys, or that they have a water-empire economy. both are thinggs you can fight. You might not win, but you can go down trying.

On the contrary, Faey tech is much more advanced., They build interstellar spacecraft when we have only reached our moon with manned craft. However, some things are easier done the "old way" and farming is one of them. Plants rely on gravity to "decide" which way to send roots and which way to send stems, branches and and leaves. Gravity is also a useful tool in many day to day activities. Planets provide gravity, air, food, water and raw materials.

I simply find it unbelievable that they would surrender.

When the alternative to surrender is destruction, the sane surrender. The Faey took care of the insane after the sane surrendered.

--
Jim/Were Fan

[Phantom]

Fel answers this question in the first page of the prolog.

No, Fel said that they did, he never explained why. In the 1991 gulf war the Iraqi army faced a technologically superior military who had every conceivable advantage. They still fought, because that's what armies do. The Iraqi government (for good or for ill) stood up to the foreigners, because that's what a government is supposed to do.

What was it that made every single last government on Earth simultaneously and unanimously decide to throw away hundreds of years of good government policy and military theory - and just give up at the first hurdle?

That has never been explained, which is why I ask the question.

If you had reread the quote there from the prolog .....the Earth Governments were being just as arrogant as ever.....

The second major shock that the natives—as the Faey called them—discovered about their conquerors was that there was much more to them than first believed. The Faey were a telepathic species, and they used that telepathic power to quickly move in and root out all the resistance movements that had sprung up since their arrival.

they figured they could pull a fast one and come out on top ....problem was the Faey didn't tell them everything.

The answer to Your question is in this one simple line...

the Faey Occupational Forces wiped out every band of organized resistance

If they Resisted they were Wiped out .....


Phantom

[Phantom]

They had two choices ... surrender or die. In addition, they may believe their bluffs won't be called. In the case of an interstellar spaceship in orbit with Star Trek type weapons, there isn't any way to bluff.

The way to bluff is say, "I don't believe you flew all this way just to conquer a radioactive rock."

Faey technology and industry is also not nearly as advanced as their science is. If it was they wouldn't need farming planets. In fact they wouldn't be interested in planets much at all, save for their asthetic value. The fact that they are would suggest that they are either children with big toys, or that they have a water-empire economy. both are thinggs you can fight. You might not win, but you can go down trying.

I simply find it unbelievable that they would surrender.

Actually if I remember correctly (I can try and find the actual quote if you want) It wouldn't have mattered to the Faey ...
As they are able to clean up Atomic wastes and other pollution and repair any dammage done to the planet .....

Not a very good Bluff if the other side can just come right in clean it up and then carry on as if it never happened afterwards....

all they would lose is some cheep labor


Phantom

[ANTIcarrot]

I don't understand how need for farming planets = not advanced tech/industry?

Plants are not the best place for an advanced civilisation to set up shop. O'Neil showed that back in the 1980s and no one's come up with a better argument than, "But planets look nicer." For a couple of their two-mile-long ships they could build probably enough orbital farms to make earth unnecessary. That's the smarter approach technologically, because lots of little targets are harder to kill than one big target.

The Faey don't see things this way. So they're either run the same as as the Amtrak Federation, or they're not very bright, or a combination of the two.

Is it better to die in a futile fight now

False logic, presupposes the humans *knew* the Faey were serious about fighting. The humans did not know this. (Remember, at this time, Earth's combined land-forces alone is on the order of 10,000,000 soldiers.) From their point of view, it would have been very possible for the Faey to be bluffing.

"Ha! Puny Earthlings! I tell you Zerg, it won't even occur to them that our *snigger* two mile long starship is just a fifty meter tug hidden inside a two-mile long mylar blimp!"

Affecting Earth's tides again wouldn't do the trick. According to our current understanding, gravity manipulation is mandatory for FTL, and that kind of synthetic gravity well is on the order of magnitude for creating an FTL effect anyway. Again, impressive, yes, but not war winning and certainly no justification for surrender.

What about if being "conquored" by these invaders actually makes life better?

If the first chapter bore any relationship to the Faey's behavior to the rest of the story, then maybe. Unfortunately despite the implications in the first chapter than the Faey 'aren't that bad', by Chapter twelve the Faey seem intent on destroying every single human institution on the planet and carrying out intellectual purges against anyone who's got more than a high-school diploma. "After all, they're all going to be farmers, right? And an educated population is a *dangerous* one!"

Since this is the worst case scenario anyway, again, why did the humans surrender?

You can bluff when your opponent thinks you may have a chance of winning, however slim that chance might be. When your opponent is sitting in an interstellar spacecraft out of reach of all of your weapons, you are not in a position to bluff.

Or when you think you have a chance of winning; or when you think your opponent is bluffing/has a chance of loosing. See above comment about Zerg and mylar blimps.

On the contrary, Faey tech is much more advanced.

No, their *science* is more advanced. Technology is how you use that science to solve problems. With advanced science comes more advanced ideas on how to solve them - and the Faey have yet to show this. See Amtrak Federation comment above.

If you had reread the quote there from the prolog the Earth Governments were being just as arrogant as ever

Actually I just did, and they've about as spineless as amoebae. In fact they're as spineless as important people have in stories where The Hero/God-PC/Mary Sue is fated to save the day with his supreme intellect, perfect body, ninja skills, vast psychic powers, and the strange attraction alien women seem to have for him. Now of course that's slightly unfair, but not by much.

they figured they could pull a fast one and come out on top

Which would only be true if they believe (and had reason to believe) that this would be the best tactic, rather than the worst.

all they would lose is some cheep labor

Unless the humans outsmarted them just once. Say, a hidden 10MT mine combined by a stupid Faey general destroys a division of Faey troops. At the least that would be severely embarrassing to House Trillane. Which is the point. You give them a bloody nose in the hopes they'll back off, and if that doesn't work you make them damn well pay for what they take. Whatever form that payment takes.

[Were_Fan]

I don't understand how need for farming planets = not advanced tech/industry?

Plants are not the best place for an advanced civilisation to set up shop. O'Neil showed that back in the 1980s and no one's come up with a better argument than, "But planets look nicer." For a couple of their two-mile-long ships they could build probably enough orbital farms to make earth unnecessary. That's the smarter approach technologically, because lots of little targets are harder to kill than one big target.

The Faey don't see things this way. So they're either run the same as as the Amtrak Federation, or they're not very bright, or a combination of the two.
<snip>

The Faey could supply a few ships with food by using orbital farms but on a large scale, you really need a planet for large scale farming. The storyline has Earth supplying a goodly portion of food to the Faey empire.

I have no idea who this O'Neil you are refering to but I can think of a lot of reasons farming on a planet is better than orbital farms. Soil, water, fertilizer and atmosphere are readily available. Hydroponics has its own set of problems to deal with and you would need to contain the nutrient solution in zero gee. Speaking gravity, seeds get "confused" when grown in zero/micro gravity and don't know which way to send roots and leaves. Gravity also lets things stay put ewhen you put them down.

It would take an enormous amount of time and resources to construct a few million square kilometers/miles/hectares of orbital farms. However, there is all that nice farmland just sitting down there on that planet. Do you really think advanced aliens are going to go to all that effort instead of just looking for more farm planets? I'll just sit back and read the story when Fel puts up some more chapters and not worry so much about the tech aspects.

--
Jim/Were Cat

[ANTIcarrot]

The Faey could supply a few ships with food by using orbital farms but on a large scale, you really need a planet for large scale farming.

No they are not. That's like saying steam engines are needed for rapid transit. They are a low tech solution, but by no means the best.

I have no idea who this O'Neil you are refering to but I can think of a lot of reasons farming on a planet is better than orbital farms.

"While lecturing to a freshman physics class at Princeton University in 1969, O'Neill posed the question to his students: "Is the surface of a planet really the right place for an expanding technological civilization?" There are sound reasons why the answer appears to be no."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerard_K._O%27Neill

Now whether this kind of technology is practical or not for the Faey in their curent situation (it is hinted that their need for Farming was very sudden and the result of one of their wars) it indicates a level of creativity the Faey have yet to demonstrate. Which is backed up by Jason's little toys. And then again, this probably isn't the first big war they've faught. Why didn't they impliment sensible strategic solutions to the food problem in previous wars?

It would take an enormous amount of time and resources to construct a few million square kilometers/miles/hectares of orbital farms.

1) Where do you think those two mile long ships came from?
2) It would take just one missile to destroy the planet beyond the Faey's ability to economically recover it. See Kiziniti Lesson and John's Law.
http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/rocket3a.html#johnslaw

[Shadowhawk]

[However, some things are easier done the "old way" and farming is one of them. Plants rely on gravity to "decide" which way to send roots and which way to send stems, branches and and leaves. Gravity is also a useful tool in many day to day activities. Planets provide gravity, air, food, water and raw materials.

As a side-note: ever heard of hydroponics? Besides, I would think that there are some (many?) planets, which can support agriculture, perhaps after some terraforming, but which has no intelligent species. Unless Faey wanted cheap/free workforce for their farms as well...