How many humans can a Fey effect.

[Belgarion213]

I wonder how many hunans a single averagely powerful fey could individually. I mean can they only control so many or is it mearly a object of both power and skill. Is there like a powerful female can control say x while a powerful male can control x/3 or something? where x is the number a powerful female ly Jyslin can control

[Phantom]

I wonder how many hunans a single averagely powerful fey could individually. I mean can they only control so many or is it mearly a object of both power and skill. Is there like a powerful female can control say x while a powerful male can control x/3 or something? where x is the number a powerful female ly Jyslin can control

I thought i remembered seeing some thing about the marines being strong enough to handle ( a  hundred ) by themselfs but i can't find it right now.
However i did find this and i think jason is talking about normal Faey Noble troops not Imperial Marines.

Theyd just march in and telepathically dominate every mind that
came into range. They could overrun the entire town outnumbered 20 to 1 and never have to fire a single
shot.

I also went back and pulled these out

Jason remembered that powerful telepathic ability was a requirement for being a Marine. If she was
strong enough to be a Marine, then she was indeed strong. Zora, Sheleese, Maya, and Jyslin were probably
four of the strongest telepaths in the theater.

Jason, you have talent, she revealed. And its not weak. When I joined with your mind, I found it
within you, bursting at the seams to be realized.
What? he asked in shock.  Youre a telepath, she told him evenly. And a damn bloody strong one. Youre as strong as I am,
and Im considered in the top ten percent among Faey.

It appears Jason is a Very strong Telepath in the top 10% of known Faey.. most likely unheard of in a Male.
I bet jason can use being a male to his advantage as well.  Most Faey may not see him a much of a threat   Not as much as a female would be viewed to be one.


Phantom

[Plshade]

I'm don't think that really matters how many humans that one Faey can handle because I would assume that it depends on how they would use their telepathy. Whether they would simply render humans unconscious one by one, try to dominate and completely control the humans, or if they tried to attack a large number at once.

And a power rating would be meaningless where actual "Talent" is concerned, especially against other telepaths. (Faey or Human) Remember that even though Jyslin is a very powerful telepath, Symone can listen in on any telepathic conversation that Jyslin had, no matter how tightly sent it was. That is Symone's talent and she's not even anywhere close to Jyslin's telepathic strength.

It appears Jason is a Very strong Telepath in the top 10% of known Faey.. most likely unheard of in a Male. I bet jason can use being a male to his advantage as well.  Most Faey may not see him a much of a threat   Not as much as a female would be viewed to be one.  


Phantom  

I agree that because of lifestyle of the Faey would lead them to continually underestimate Jason, since they have been conditioned since they were young that the female is dominant over the male.

Also What if Jason is able to learn how to do things with his telepathy that the Faey have never thought of just like he can create new technological devices that the Faey would have never considered using obsolete technology. Remeber the conversation between Ailan and Jason in ch.5;

You know, I think Ive figured out how you think this stuff up, Ailan had confided last week, as they went over his project after Jason brought it in to show him, his one and only chance to have the instructor check his project.  You come into this with absolutely no pre-conceived notions.  You have a fresh outlook on things, you know?  I almost envy you for that, you know.

     All you have to do is open your eyes and look at things, Ailan, Jason chuckled.

     Yes, but you see, I have years of training jading my point of view, he answered.  You dont.  You look at something and see something I never considered, because your lack of training lets you approach it from an angle I wouldnt consider.

     You might be right, Jason had acceded.

     That was a pretty interesting point, Jason had to agree.  Jason didnt come into this thinking in only one manner, because it was all so new to him.  He saw something and immediately his mind started thinking of how it could be used, without knowing what it really could be used for.  That let him see a way to use something that Ailan might not, because hed discount that to be used in that manner, or ignore it because something else also did that.

     The railgun was a perfect example of that.  No Faey would think of something like that, because it seemed primitive in the age of energy weapons.  But in its own way, Jasons railgun was the equal of any MPAC in production, it just worked in a different way.  If  he could ever get the damn thing to work, anyway.

Who knows what type of "Talent" that Jason could develop that the Faey might not think of or expect, if he had the time to explore his telepathy uninterupted.

[Phantom]

I'm don't think that really matters how many humans that one Faey can handle because I would assume that it depends on how they would use their telepathy. Whether they would simply render humans unconscious one by one, try to dominate and completely control the humans, or if they tried to attack a large number at once.

It would all depend on how quickly they could do each one.
Here is one area where power rating would come into play the more powerful the telepath the quicker they could control each person.

And a power rating would be meaningless where actual "Talent" is concerned, especially against other telepaths. (Faey or Human) Remember that even though Jyslin is a very powerful telepath, Symone can listen in on any telepathic conversation that Jyslin had, no matter how tightly sent it was. That is Symone's talent and she's not even anywhere close to Jyslin's telepathic strength.

While I think there is a lot of truth here. (see the above)
Remember even though Symone can hear sending she can't effect as much using telepathy and has a shorter range.
Even she knows and states just how powerful jason truly is.
She can only teach him to a point then he's beyond her.
But she's teaching him equalizing tricks..

The big question i have had is do Telepaths express at their full potential or does their power rating slowly increase to it as they before mature Telepaths ?

If so What would jasons current rating be now ?
can he be as strong or stronger then the strongest Faey?

I agree that because of lifestyle of the Faey would lead them to continually underestimate Jason, since they have been conditioned since they were young that the female is dominant over the male.

Yup my thoughts exactly

Also What if Jason is able to learn how to do things with his telepathy that the Faey have never thought of just like he can create new technological devices that the Faey would have never considered using obsolete technology. Remeber the conversation between Ailan and Jason in ch.5;

Who knows what type of "Talent" that Jason could develop that the Faey might not think of or expect, if he had the time to explore his telepathy uninterupted.

I had not started thinking in that way..
It's an interesting idea.
But jason has had little time to explore that area yet.
And I don't think he could do it without a telepath of at least Jyslin's power rating to be able to practice.



Phantom

[ANTIcarrot]

A single Faey convinced the UN that they didn't stand a chance. The question becomes: How many deligates did he/she have to ceize control of before the rest were convinced that fighting wasn't an option?

It may also depend on the mental state of the humans and the Faey in question, how much training the Faey has had and one the relative positions and velocities of the humans. There's a difference between:
*Ten humans standing in front of the Faey.
*Ten humans surrounding the Faey.
*Ten fighter pilots moving towards the Faey at 600mph.
*Ten fighter pilots moving in ten different directions at speeds between 500mph and 200mph.

At a guess the answer is the length of a piece of string in inches.

ANTIcarrot.

[Phantom]

A single Faey convinced the UN that they didn't stand a chance. The question becomes: How many deligates did he/she have to ceize control of before the rest were convinced that fighting wasn't an option?

It may also depend on the mental state of the humans and the Faey in question, how much training the Faey has had and one the relative positions and velocities of the humans. There's a difference between:
*Ten humans standing in front of the Faey.
*Ten humans surrounding the Faey.
*Ten fighter pilots moving towards the Faey at 600mph.
*Ten fighter pilots moving in ten different directions at speeds between 500mph and 200mph.

At a guess the answer is the length of a piece of string in inches.

ANTIcarrot.

Ok that was quite a deep thought   your right distance and speed.  
Jason has stated it him self about just being able to keep from being controlled long enough to Hit them on the Chin and break the concentration.

Jason is going to need to work on his skills as well as it would work both ways..
also Add to your string being able to measure two or more strings at the same time while walking and chewing gum.

Being able to use your telepathic abilities while flying a fighter or Exomech during a dogfight could be a very deciding factor in the outcome.

Jason has to be able to juggle all of these things at the same time while possibly being or doing telepathic attacks (maybe more then one at the same time).. not easy to do I would say


Phantom

[thisandthat]

As Per http://sennadar.plebian.net/other/subjugation/sub08.htm

It took just two hours to round up the west end gang, first by capturing their patrols, then assaulting their home base.  Jason was impressed by Symone when she barged in and quickly subdued twenty humans in a matter of moments, letting them shoot at her to their hearts content.

Symone can grab up 20 people ...

So the answer is .... A bunch.

... and I think that is SHOUT at her to...

[ANTIcarrot]

No, shoot. She was wearing her super-armor, which meant she just stood there until they realised their weapons weren't going to work and they gave up.

IIRC, telepathy was only used to vet peoeple who wanted to stay.

ANTIcarrot.

[Phantom]

Symone can grab up 20 people ...

So the answer is .... A bunch.

... and I think that is SHOUT at her to...

No, shoot. She was wearing her super-armor, which meant she just stood there until they realised their weapons weren't going to work and they gave up.

IIRC, telepathy was only used to vet peoeple who wanted to stay.

ANTIcarrot.

While I want to agree with Anticarrot on this one.
As it seems Symone just let them shoot at her Armor.  

Lets go clean out some low-lifes, Symone winked at Jason before putting on her helmet.
With Tim directing them, they quickly and efficiently swept Huntington clean. They started in the
west end, all the way in Kenova. Symone and Jason used their talent to track down anyone in the vicinity,
then Symone did the honors of subduing them with telepathy, to hide Jasons talent from them. It was done
at a distance, and since at first nobody realized what they were doing, it was ridiculously easy. They were
disarmed, tied up, then Symone transported them to a central location with her airbike while Jason tracked
down their next target. Symone was putting them in the old Redmen Bingo hall at the foot of the west end
bridge. Tim would guide her back to Jason, and theyd do it again.
It took just two hours to round up the west end gang, first by capturing their patrols, then assaulting
their home base. Jason was impressed by Symone when she barged in and quickly subdued twenty humans
in a matter of moments, letting them shoot at her to their hearts content. There had been one injury when a
ricocheted bullet hit a man in the shin, but it wasnt serious at all. They then ranged up into downtown
Huntington, and it took them about three hours to round up the sixty or so members of the downtown gang,
first the patrols and then the two concentrations of unmoving gang members.

But if we read it closely it seems she did use talent to subdue them abet slowly.

Another place were we find something about telepathic ability and the number 20 is in chapter 10 and we find this

If they could defeat an MPACit made his mind wander back to that old idea of open rebellion. But
that was still impossible, because of the telepathic advantage. If the Faey ever attacked Chesapeake, theyd
almost certainly not do it with guns. Theyd just march in and telepathically dominate every mind that
came into range. They could overrun the entire town outnumbered 20 to 1 and never have to fire a single
shot.

So we Still have no definitive answer we can point to on the question how ever it would seem that most Faey can control at least 20 or more to some extent but it also brings up the question of range.

It still seems to come back to Time and distance (range) as the biggest limiting factors we can figure out so far.  
If these are the only real factors.
Then the strength of the telepath doing the controlling would become a big factor in how fast or now far away they could be controlled


Phantom

[MechCraft]

I think the telepathy range for an average fey to control 20 people is about 10m/30ft

i based this on the mask of zorro movie where antonio bandaris is learning to fight in the circles. and the normal human sense of when someone is watching you and you feel it.

as some marital arts instructors say "feel the invironmnet, you should be able to sense when someone is neer"

[ANTIcarrot]

In a potential combat situation, humans could be using portable weapons like M2HBs, claymores, RPG-7s, TOW/Milan,  and heavier weapons. Things which have a small chance of denting Faey body armour (or stunning the person inside) and have the range to maybe impair Faey telepathy.

Even if the weapons themselves can't penetrate, having that lot come at you is probably REALLY SCARY! Such intimidation might have a significant impact on a Faey's ability to operate.

ANTIcarrot.

[Shadowhawk]

Sniper killings from very, very far. That far that telepathy is out of range. Or maybe mechanical traps...

[Phantom]

I think the telepathy range for an average fey to control 20 people is about 10m/30ft

i based this on the mask of zorro movie where antonio bandaris is learning to fight in the circles. and the normal human sense of when someone is watching you and you feel it.

as some marital arts instructors say "feel the invironmnet, you should be able to sense when someone is neer"

See Quote and comments below

In a potential combat situation, humans could be using portable weapons like M2HBs, claymores, RPG-7s, TOW/Milan,  and heavier weapons. Things which have a small chance of denting Faey body armour (or stunning the person inside) and have the range to maybe impair Faey telepathy.

Even if the weapons themselves can't penetrate, having that lot come at you is probably REALLY SCARY! Such intimidation might have a significant impact on a Faey's ability to operate.

ANTIcarrot.

See Quote and comments below

Sniper killings from very, very far. That far that telepathy is out of range. Or maybe mechanical traps...

Quoting From Chapter 3
When Im with other Faey, I tend to speak more than send, but thats because Im not as strong as most other women.  I guess I hide my inadequacy by not making it common knowledge.  But sometimes we do have to speak, she explained.  Most Faey women have a telapathic range of about three human miles, on the average.  Most men have a range of about a mile and a half.  Im not very strong at all, she admitted.  Barely stronger than the average man.  I have a range of about two miles.  The strongest have a range of like ten miles.  Some of the strongest men are stronger than I am, she admitted candidly.  So, if we want to communicate outside our range, we have to use a communicator.  

If we follow Symones explanation above.  We can see while its possible to say use a sniper rifle to take out a Faey it could be quite dangerous. you would very possibly be trading one for one.  And if the Faey wasn't alone then the sniper would be quickly found and dealt with by the other Faey present.  
1500 Meters would be a fantastic shot if one was able to do it. But it's still well within the 3 mile average range for most Female Faey

M2HBs, claymores, RPG-7s, TOW/Milan,  and heavier weapons some of these can be set as booby-traps and wouldn't require an operator for their operation.
But in doing so you would be unsure or their ultimate target. (IE; Civilians, animals, ect,)  

Most of these weapons are only effective well with in the 3 mile range. The Improved TOWS even, Only have about a little over the 3000 meter range. Claymores your talking meters and they would have little effect against body armor.. and we know any wound that doesn't kill outright.....Faey medicine can repair.

So the problem is how to use any of these weapons and still retain the Trained operator ?

Also gleened from the above quote Jason is suppose to be a strong telepath some where possibly in the top 10% of all Faey.  I would assume his range should fall somewhere between 3 and 10 miles?.

Just a small observation/thought for the future.



Phantom

[Shadowhawk]

If we follow Symones explanation above.  We can see while its possible to say use a sniper rifle to take out a Faey it could be quite dangerous. you would very possibly be trading one for one.  And if the Faey wasn't alone then the sniper would be quickly found and dealt with by the other Faey present.  

1500 Meters would be a fantastic shot if one was able to do it. But it's still well within the 3 mile average range for most Female Faey

I don't know if rail gun (gauss rifle) has range limit, beside the obvious horizon limit. And you could proably use UV/gamma laser rifle, if there is range limit below 3 miles for rail gun.

There is a trick, found in "Czarne Oceany" ("Black Oceans") by Jacek Dukaj, to snipe a telepath. You send snipers to observe him thru rifle scope, and train them so they think only about looking, observing him/her. Press the button when sniper sees him thru scope. Actual shot is done via radio from afar. And Faey don't wear full body armor all the time...

As to booby traps: observe area via industrial TV (or planted cameras + heavy encryption, e.g. single-key, with the length of key equal to the maximum length of encrypted information -  I have forgot the name of this sure cipher, key being two copies of the same random sequence).

The problem is with planning such an operation without detecting, if there are no telepaths in resistance.

[Phantom]

I don't know if rail gun (gauss rifle) has range limit, beside the obvious horizon limit. And you could proably use UV/gamma laser rifle, if there is range limit below 3 miles for rail gun.

There is a trick, found in "Czarne Oceany" ("Black Oceans") by Jacek Dukaj, to snipe a telepath. You send snipers to observe him thru rifle scope, and train them so they think only about looking, observing him/her. Press the button when sniper sees him thru scope. Actual shot is done via radio from afar. And Faey don't wear full body armor all the time...

As to booby traps: observe area via industrial TV (or planted cameras + heavy encryption, e.g. single-key, with the length of key equal to the maximum length of encrypted information - I have forgot the name of this sure cipher, key being two copies of the same random sequence).

The problem is with planning such an operation without detecting, if there are no telepaths in resistance.

I can see this working on Single targets  but against group targets it couldn't work for very long

Besides once the First couple of Faey died I'm sure there would be an Overwhelming response to the attacks.  Changes in Tatic's to Minimize this type of attack
To include active area mind scans looking for Target Viewers

It's good for one or two attacks but after that.... Well i'm sure you can see it would lose it's effectiveness quickly


Phantom