Revolution Chapter 8 (Spoliers)

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Not a ID
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Re: Revolution Chapter 8 (Spoliers)

Post by Not a ID » Thu Nov 07, 2019 1:53 pm

SoronelHaetir wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:43 am
I don't buy the commune being the vector idea for the simple reason that the folks manifesting the disease aren't sensitive to it. Nearly every humanoid species is susceptible to this.
Exactly, and when paired with the matter that if commune is the the vector, then the Karrines should be facing the larger outbreak, not the Fae it simply doesn't hold up.
I almost suspect some sort of invasive means, slipped in during recent medical visits (possibly even using adulterated medications). That the reason it's not picked up on any of the scanners is that it simply cannot exist in the free environment.
I'm certain that adulterated medications are involved. What makes the feat more impressive is they seem to have slipped it past Songa's medical team and had them unknowingly infect Jason. unless of course, they did ultimately do what I suggested earlier. The FMS gave Dahnai "a medical examination" which infected her so she could go about infecting Jason.

It does appear both of them were infected, and efforts were certainly made to make it so the two of them do appear as "patient zero."

Just based on the Karrine side of things though, it HAS to have a contagious element, so it does exist in the environment for a time. Otherwise there is a challenge with addressing how somebody managed to deliberately infect everyone in close proximity to Jason in Karis over the past month. Only the CBIMs and the Imperial Guard should have that level of knowledge on his movements.

My best guess at this point is that they're "encapsulating" the virus inside something else which the scanners would generally ignore. Like inside of a medical nanodevice, where you can then also account for the sudden practically synchronized outbreak. If it was being held inside "a benign medical device" scanners would likely ignore it and only register the device. So long as the virus is being constrained by the device, it is undetected, and since it IS being constrained by the device, the "payload" doesn't get released until a signal is sent directing it to be released. At which point you get a large synchronized outbreak.

And it very easily could be another case of the Karrines being victims of their own cleverness. This may have only become possible for the FMS to achieve thanks to broadcast power. So in that respect, it may be found that the outbreak only extends to worlds where broadcast power was being used. (As they had their "viral carriers" self-destruct if they ran out of juice) Of course, I don't remember if that was a tech that was shared with others or kept in house only. (Where Draconis has a broadcast power install because of the Palace)

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Re: Revolution Chapter 8 (Spoliers)

Post by imthejman85 » Thu Nov 07, 2019 2:18 pm

Not a ID wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 3:46 am
I really think the dragon in the vision is the FMS, I think Dahnai is going to learn about what was going on as they "connect the dots" and she's going to be particularly enraged about the "Experiment" she was made part of 4 years previous. As such, she's going to be at great risk of trying to lash out and do what she commented on in chapter 8:
You interfered in the Medical Service, Jason, you just don’t do that. Not even I would ever dream of doing something like that, it would get me bounced off my throne.
I'm pretty sure if Dahnai had proof the FMS were experimenting on unknowing/unwilling test subjects the average citizen would take notice. If she had said proof and released it to the Imperium at large it might undercut the rage that's sure to follow after Zaa finally cracks that egg.
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf. -George Orwell

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Re: Revolution Chapter 8 (Spoliers)

Post by Not a ID » Thu Nov 07, 2019 6:07 pm

imthejman85 wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 2:18 pm
Not a ID wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 3:46 am
I really think the dragon in the vision is the FMS, I think Dahnai is going to learn about what was going on as they "connect the dots" and she's going to be particularly enraged about the "Experiment" she was made part of 4 years previous. As such, she's going to be at great risk of trying to lash out and do what she commented on in chapter 8:
You interfered in the Medical Service, Jason, you just don’t do that. Not even I would ever dream of doing something like that, it would get me bounced off my throne.
I'm pretty sure if Dahnai had proof the FMS were experimenting on unknowing/unwilling test subjects the average citizen would take notice. If she had said proof and released it to the Imperium at large it might undercut the rage that's sure to follow after Zaa finally cracks that egg.
But can you get Dahnai to wait long enough to do that?

Also remember in the dream vision, she attacks the dragon first.

Edit to add: Something else I noticed going back to the Conviction 10 comments and stuff surrounding it. I suspect we'll find some of the questions from back then are likely to get some answers in the story-arc. I suspect we're going to find that the FMS has been "helping" make sure Generation numbers were low up until now, as part of an effort to prevent House Karrine from rising again, and otherwise keeping the Generations from becoming a threat again.

And a certain practice by the FMS in regards to a taboo regarding fertility treatments is potentially linked into it. As a (almost) sterilized Generation who cannot get help with having children is someone who won't be helping create the exponential population growth curve they'd otherwise need to have contended with, and "somehow" didn't happen after the fall of House Karrine. (1 generation has 2 children, who have 2 children each, who then have 2 children each, and do on)

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Re: Revolution Chapter 8 (Spoliers)

Post by SoronelHaetir » Fri Nov 08, 2019 6:59 pm

Actually I am not at all certain the average Imperial citizen will be that torqued about this. I mean the possibility of getting a massive power-up with little risk (what with how this version is vastly safer than the original retrovirus). And the non-Faey are likely to be thrilled.

And I don't think the IMS had anything to do with keeping Karinne down. The Kimdori had a hard enough time tracking the Generations, and they had much more reason to do so, being considered family (that is keeping track of every known Generation, regardless of whether they were close to political power or not). IMS might have had reason to track those close to power but not all of them. And as far as we know it's only the few Karinnes on Earth that had the medical problems, what with how lacking treatment was until the Subjugation. Those left in the Imperium likely had symptoms but they were easily treated.

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Re: Revolution Chapter 8 (Spoliers)

Post by Not a ID » Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:23 am

I'm going to agree that the estimated extremely low risk factor of this version of the retrovirus (4 years in the making) would likely cause most to be thrilled to have been infected with it.

Although being told that the Empress had been nearly killed by an earlier version of it that the FMS infected her with may be another matter.

I think the FMS actually was in a better position to track the Karine descendants than the Kimdori were. Further, if they knew enough about the generations, it would have been easy for them to have implemented a routine test (which would be placed in a database that would go back to HQ) which could flag the presence of the virus, even if the attending Physician never was aware of a flag being set.

At which point the FMS personnel at HQ could decide to act on it or not. And considering every Fae child is likely to be screened by the FMS at one point or another, they likely would have the better part of a decade to get a "specialist" in position to do whatever dirty deed they wanted to do(making conception more difficult/impossible) before either moving on to somewhere else, or sticking around to become "the family care provider" for that individual for years/decades to come.

Also, IIRC, one of the Fae Generations mentioned at one point that her parents had difficulties conceiving children. Being an only child also is something of a typical experience for the Generation Fae. Of course, you can cite the parents being academics and more focused on other pursuits, but that may just have been an excuse they used to cover for the real reason. As I doubt Fae women(or men for that matter) would be particularly open about being infertile, given some of the insults that get used, and the taboo about fertility treatments. In fact, in some cases, it might go so far as it actually being a case that because of their infertility, they became academics.

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Re: Revolution Chapter 8 (Spoliers)

Post by kyli » Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:57 am

My theory. The FMS released the virus, likely on purpose. They're motive is simple. Power! They believe that the Karinnes can detect Generations so they won't risk just infecting themselves and making themselves into a beacon that the Karinnes know shouldn't be there. So instead, they infect the entire Imperium. And I also suspect that all 10 races that can get the virus will also have a break out, because I suspect that the virus was hidden in the outbreak of that virus in New York when Jason visited. Which would mean it would likely be all over Terra by now and spread across the Confederation.

The motive for infecting 8 different races besides Terrans and Feay? Protection. If their are 10 different races the become Generations, that prevents the non-generation races from being able to gang up as easily and do what was done to the Dreamers in Andromeda. It will have races focus on converting the virus to work on them instead of trying to take advantage of the Generation races.

Best case, the virus was released with good intentions for the betterment of all. I actually think that will be the long term effect if the virus manages to spread everywhere. I think I mentioned at one point that I would like to see Jason come up with something to turn Tarrans into telepaths. This would happen if the virus effect everyone on Terra. Short term, a lot of shit will hit the fan no matter what.

I think the end result will be the entire Confederation becoming Generations and resulting in the relationship between the Kimdori and Karinnes expanding to include the entire Confederation creating a truly United Galacitic Confederation and everyone being telekinetic as well as powerful telepaths. This might take decades or longer to see this result though. Right now, the shits gonna hit the fan.

I am being optimistic about this because despite the shit storm this will cause, the virus, if engineered, is designed to be very safe, and actually has an positive effect, when looking at it objectively. That doesn't mean that whoever did it didn't break a ton of laws, and should be locked up and the key thrown away.

And Aria is going to be a Generation Dreamer. I wonder how that will effect her abilities.
"Revenge is a dish best served cold, and revenge is sweet, so for all intents and purposes, revenge is ice cream."

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Re: Revolution Chapter 8 (Spoliers)

Post by Not a ID » Mon Nov 11, 2019 9:43 pm

kyli wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:57 am
My theory. The FMS released the virus, likely on purpose. They're motive is simple. Power! They believe that the Karinnes can detect Generations so they won't risk just infecting themselves and making themselves into a beacon that the Karinnes know shouldn't be there. So instead, they infect the entire Imperium. And I also suspect that all 10 races that can get the virus will also have a break out, because I suspect that the virus was hidden in the outbreak of that virus in New York when Jason visited. Which would mean it would likely be all over Terra by now and spread across the Confederation.
Hadn't considered that option, the CBIMs aren't going to be able to track the movement of every person on Earth, or just in NYC. Sure somebody could possibly backtrace their steps in due time, but by then its too late and doesn't matter. In the interim most would try to assume they came 1st/2nd/3rd "hand" contact with Jason while he was contagious in New York. Rather than conclude that the FMS infected them when they sought treatment for exposure to the Shio Danza Virus. Of course, with Jason having gone to the UN, that gives the FMS a chance to screen everyone for Danza at the UN, and then deliberately infect them with the retrovirus... And if you just made UN Headquarters a "hot spot" for the new Generation Retrovirus and set it to be undetectable for several weeks...
The motive for infecting 8 different races besides Terrans and Faey? Protection. If there are 10 different races the become Generations, that prevents the non-generation races from being able to gang up as easily and do what was done to the Dreamers in Andromeda. It will have races focus on converting the virus to work on them instead of trying to take advantage of the Generation races.
I was initially lumping the cross-species aspect to be an oversight on the part of the FMS as a consequence of their using samples from both Dahnai and Jason. But if we go with the above theory that they wanted to deliberately infect everyone at UN Headquarters as well, that would indicate that they wanted the virus spread far and wide, where the Faey and humans were not only target. Although it also is possible they did intend for the Humans to be infected(gives them "common cause" with the Faey), but the wider spread remained unintended.
Best case, the virus was released with good intentions for the betterment of all. I actually think that will be the long term effect if the virus manages to spread everywhere. I think I mentioned at one point that I would like to see Jason come up with something to turn Terrans into telepaths. This would happen if the virus effect everyone on Terra. Short term, a lot of shit will hit the fan no matter what.
I'm still sticking to the theory the virus was released out of paranoia about the House Karrine Generations stemming from the first fall of that house. Obviously they saw a "betterment" angle for releasing it upon the Faey population at large, but the Faey being Faey, I don't see them really wanting to share. Humans were likely to only have been included because they've come to realize humans and Faey are very closely related, and probably not two divergent species from different worlds as initially presumed. I've actually started a re-read to go find some of the stuff I have distant memories of, where I've already found this as a justification for the FMS to have been experimenting on humans sent to the farms:

From Jyslin in Subjugation:
Our physiologies are virtually identical, and we’re even genetically compatible.  Faey and humans are nearly the same race.
--and we know from Fel that Jyslin was more correct than she thought(or possibly even still thinks) when she said that. Because the Faye are from Earth.
From Rann in Subjugation:
I’ve noticed that humans are very, very similar to us.  We’re not just genetically similar, we’re psychologically similar.
From Songa in Subjugation:
Humans and Faey are genetically compatible, Luke.  That’s almost exactly identical.
In particular, Songa's comment pretty much "seals it" in terms of why the FMS would have wanted to perform covert experiments on humans during the Subjugation of Earth. It was a prime opportunity to do a lot of "real world testing" without concern about outsiders asking too many questions. At least until House Karinne returned from the grave, under the leadership of a human no less.

So the inclusion of humans in the retrovirus was both a stab at Jason because of very close ties with Earth, and to also give the Faey some additional backing, as Earth has become very important on the inter-stellar stage.

Of course, "All hell breaking loose" on Earth is perhaps an understatment. Subjugation made it clear how dangerous humans were when their telepathy "awakened" back then, and most of the ones who were caught out in public weren't Generations, but rather were just normal Faey descended telepaths. But you have them awaken as a generation, with biogenic commune present(on Karis and to a lesser extent on Earth), and pair it with every generation being telekenetic, and things could turn nasty very quick for anyone near those humans. Or the other non-telepaths who just awakened to a genetic ability they didn't have a few weeks ago.
I think the end result will be the entire Confederation becoming Generations and resulting in the relationship between the Kimdori and Karinnes expanding to include the entire Confederation creating a truly United Galacitic Confederation and everyone being telekinetic as well as powerful telepaths. This might take decades or longer to see this result though. Right now, the shits gonna hit the fan.
Assuming the outbreak doesn't wreck several of those societies outright as they try to cope with all the awakening telekinetic telepaths in their midsts.
I am being optimistic about this because despite the shit storm this will cause, the virus, if engineered, is designed to be very safe, and actually has an positive effect, when looking at it objectively. That doesn't mean that whoever did it didn't break a ton of laws, and should be locked up and the key thrown away.
Even with the low risk factor I wouldn't call it "very safe," they just set something in motion that is likely to infect billions of people. The number of people who will be put on death's door is going to be very high, and the death-toll is likely to be in the millions if they're unable to contain and control the rate of conversion if nothing else. Even with "one tenth of 1 percent suffering adverse effects" as per Songa's projection, that is 1 in 1,000. While a significant improvement over the virus the Karrines used, I think that still makes it far more dangerous than even the common cold, albeit a much better reward for surviving it.

For the roughly 100 people living on/near the strip that means there is a 1 in 10 chance of severe complications impacting at least 1 of them, and that is only on the strip.

Assuming there are still more than 5 billion humans running around, that retrovirus is likely to put 5 million humans into the hospital and potentially killing most of those 5 million people. Now start looking at those numbers for the Faey Imperium, the people on Karis, and then their allies if it spreads further. Once they survive that, then you have to try train all those billions of people in how to use their new abilities, before they lose control and either harm themselves or others.
And Aria is going to be a Generation Dreamer. I wonder how that will effect her abilities.
Yup, Jason is going to get the answer to a question he wasn't seriously expecting an answer to for decades to come, if ever.
Last edited by Not a ID on Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Revolution Chapter 8 (Spoliers)

Post by kyli » Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:15 pm

As I said, a real shit storm in the now. But in a few decades, most people might look back and see it as a blessing. Unless in triggers huge wars. Then its probably a disaster no matter what.
"Revenge is a dish best served cold, and revenge is sweet, so for all intents and purposes, revenge is ice cream."

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Re: Revolution Chapter 8 (Spoliers)

Post by Not a ID » Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:16 pm

And the Moridon Virus can't be the handiwork of the FMS, forgot this part of the story, but found it while doing some searches rather than simply re-reading:
[Well, the Moridon, being who they are, saw the Kimdori as a threat to their security.  So, they engineered a complex molecule bioagent to attack any Kimdori that visited Moridon.  It was effective, but what the Moridons probably did not realize was that it took a long time for the agent to do its work on a Kimdori, and that those Kimdori infected by the agent were contagious.  To make the story a short one, it literally threatened their race with eradication.  I am sure the Moridons did not intend this,] the computer mused.  [It is not their nature.  The Kimdori came to the Karinnes in desperation, seeking help to find a cure, for it was well known that Karinne science and their geneticists were among the finest in the galaxy.  The Karinnes found a cure for the bioagent and saved the Kimdori race.  Since that day, the Kimdori have been the staunchest allies of the House of Karinne.  And, as I think you have deduced, the Generations are also vulnerable to that agent.  The segments of Kimdori DNA it attacks are also part of your DNA, and to the agent, you look like a Kimdori.  It killed several Generations that visited Moridon until they were able to develop a vaccine.]
The bioagent predated the Generations Program, more specifically, because of the Moridon Bioagent, the Generations Program became possible in the first place. So the FMS gets a pass on that one, although the case involving Maeda Karinne may be part of how the FMS became more aware of the Generations program back in the distant past.

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