Retribution, chapter 7, possible ideas and theories (spoilers)

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SYED
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Retribution, chapter 7, possible ideas and theories (spoilers)

Post by SYED » Fri Mar 23, 2018 5:29 am

I just had an idea. When the benga ordered an evacuation of the planet, I doubt they would allow those ships keep such a valuable asset in an unsecured location. They were kept a complete secret, all that was known was for some reason a planet of total telepaths had to be kept completely secured.
Also, the dreamers are powerful telepaths. A large number of them in a singular location, present a huge security risk. So temporarily they would be taken to a secure central location. While telepaths were recruited heavily for this posting, naval personnel were not really expected to encounter the natives that muc, so general crew might not be gifted.

I bet the kimdori would have intercepted a copy of such orders, so arranging to eliminate or capture the remaining dreamers in bondage.
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Re: Retribution, chapter 7, possible ideas and theories (spoilers)

Post by Wolfee » Wed Mar 28, 2018 6:12 pm

SYED wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 5:29 am
... I bet the kimdori would have intercepted a copy of such orders, so arranging to eliminate or capture the remaining dreamers in bondage.
Remember what the captured mech pilot said in the opening minutes of the battle to take the dreamer home world... If "command" can edit their warbook remotely to say capture a Karinne command ship at all costs, what else could the Kimdori remotely edit and push down to all the enemy fleets in andromeda? "Updated" navigational charts? False orders taking a fleet into a trap, etc..

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Re: Retribution, chapter 7, possible ideas and theories (spoilers)

Post by MartinK » Thu Mar 29, 2018 2:13 am

Wolfee wrote:
Wed Mar 28, 2018 6:12 pm
Remember what the captured mech pilot said in the opening minutes of the battle to take the dreamer home world... If "command" can edit their warbook remotely to say capture a Karinne command ship at all costs, what else could the Kimdori remotely edit and push down to all the enemy fleets in andromeda? "Updated" navigational charts? False orders taking a fleet into a trap, etc..
And once they use it, they only have a short time left until the enemy notices and comes up with countermeasures. It'll also manage to grab their attention pretty badly in that they will start hunting spies or traitors in their ranks. So... unless the Kimdori can come up with a series of commands that will essentially win the war for them, having their spies up high in the enemies headquarters not getting bothered is much, much better than sending an enemy fleet off into a black hole.

Still, it won't be long until the Kimdori end up in a situation much like the british shortly before Coventry was bombed. Churchill let it happen rather than risk the Germans finding out that their Enigma code was broken. I can see the Kimdori making the same decision... but could Jason?
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Re: Retribution, chapter 7, possible ideas and theories (spoilers)

Post by kyli » Thu Mar 29, 2018 6:40 am

MartinK wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 2:13 am
Wolfee wrote:
Wed Mar 28, 2018 6:12 pm
Remember what the captured mech pilot said in the opening minutes of the battle to take the dreamer home world... If "command" can edit their warbook remotely to say capture a Karinne command ship at all costs, what else could the Kimdori remotely edit and push down to all the enemy fleets in andromeda? "Updated" navigational charts? False orders taking a fleet into a trap, etc..
And once they use it, they only have a short time left until the enemy notices and comes up with countermeasures. It'll also manage to grab their attention pretty badly in that they will start hunting spies or traitors in their ranks. So... unless the Kimdori can come up with a series of commands that will essentially win the war for them, having their spies up high in the enemies headquarters not getting bothered is much, much better than sending an enemy fleet off into a black hole.
Well it could be set up so the Syndicate doesnt know what happened. Send the ships into a trap and clean up the evidence on your end. Meanwhile, let the trap take care of the evidence on the other end.
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Re: Retribution, chapter 7, possible ideas and theories (spoilers)

Post by Wolfee » Thu Mar 29, 2018 4:29 pm

kyli wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 6:40 am
MartinK wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 2:13 am
Wolfee wrote:
Wed Mar 28, 2018 6:12 pm
Remember what the captured mech pilot said in the opening minutes of the battle to take the dreamer home world... If "command" can edit their warbook remotely to say capture a Karinne command ship at all costs, what else could the Kimdori remotely edit and push down to all the enemy fleets in andromeda? "Updated" navigational charts? False orders taking a fleet into a trap, etc..
And once they use it, they only have a short time left until the enemy notices and comes up with countermeasures. It'll also manage to grab their attention pretty badly in that they will start hunting spies or traitors in their ranks. So... unless the Kimdori can come up with a series of commands that will essentially win the war for them, having their spies up high in the enemies headquarters not getting bothered is much, much better than sending an enemy fleet off into a black hole.
Well it could be set up so the Syndicate doesnt know what happened. Send the ships into a trap and clean up the evidence on your end. Meanwhile, let the trap take care of the evidence on the other end.

Agreed if the Kimdori have achieved total network penetration, and from what we know of the Kimdori - they have or will have...and we know how "cheap" the Syndicate can be... then Kyli isn't exaggerating that it is entirely possible. Depending on the resources available the Confederation can well and truly hamstring Syndicate militarily for at least a generation using misdirection, manipulation, data corruption, tactical control of the enemies network and of course interdictors. They could basically conquer the andromeda galaxy in a month or 2 if they have enough indicators and the ability to order admirals to move Syndicate fleets into traps without being detected. Sure you would have to reduce a few planets or a 100 to rubble and their populations as well, to obtain cooperation at a planetary level. But the answer is yes you could at the least the the Syndicate Navy out of the picture in short order If you have the above resources. Planetary conquest might get a wee bit genocidal for Jason's taste. But it could be very easy to free the andromeda galaxy from the Benga, if Jason is bloody minded enough.

How does a mouse eat a elephant? One bite at a time....the caveat is the mouse just needs to take one bite at a time very quickly till he has delivered a mortal blow.

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Re: Retribution, chapter 7, possible ideas and theories (spoilers)

Post by SYED » Fri Mar 30, 2018 12:03 am

I could see the kimdori being aware of potential evacuation plans for the dreamers, so slip in a tracking beacon. At least temporily, the evacuated would be kept together. The benga priority would be attempting to retake the plant, wiping out the remaining dreamers, eliminating the enemy or even capture new technology. So while important, the held dreamers would not be a priority. Held deep in a ship or installation, to them would be highly secured. They are not aware yet of the portal capability of their enemies yet.
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Re: Retribution, chapter 7, possible ideas and theories (spoilers)

Post by GBLW » Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:29 am

SYED wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 12:03 am
They are not aware yet of the portal capability of their enemies yet.
Oh come on now - they have a major battle in which hundreds of HUGE ships appear out of nowhere, then discharge huge numbers of warriors who proceed kick their forces butts. Then most if not all of those conquering forces disappear again. I would think that they just might have a little bit of a suspicion that their enemies are able to move just a tiny bit faster and further than they can. In fact I'm fairly sure that that one battle might cause them just a touch of trepidation about future battles - either in space or on planetary bodies.
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Re: Retribution, chapter 7, possible ideas and theories (spoilers)

Post by Wolfee » Fri Mar 30, 2018 3:05 pm

GBLW wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:29 am
SYED wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 12:03 am
They are not aware yet of the portal capability of their enemies yet.
Oh come on now - they have a major battle in which hundreds of HUGE ships appear out of nowhere, then discharge huge numbers of warriors who proceed kick their forces butts. Then most if not all of those conquering forces disappear again. I would think that they just might have a little bit of a suspicion that their enemies are able to move just a tiny bit faster and further than they can. In fact I'm fairly sure that that one battle might cause them just a touch of trepidation about future battles - either in space or on planetary bodies.
I agree with GBLW, the Confederation will have to take advantage before the Syndicate adapts... the Syndicate is evil and cheap, not lazy and stupid.

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Re: Retribution, chapter 7, possible ideas and theories (spoilers)

Post by SoronelHaetir » Mon Apr 02, 2018 6:03 am

But Syndicate leadership has been blinded to what was actually done. At least I assume the usual sensor masking was performed before this battle. And even then, knowing there are gates capable of transporting ships great distances doesn't tell them there are also man sized gates that can work even in the very heart of their battleships.

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Re: Retribution, chapter 7, possible ideas and theories (spoilers)

Post by MartinK » Mon Apr 02, 2018 9:08 am

SoronelHaetir wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 6:03 am
But Syndicate leadership has been blinded to what was actually done. At least I assume the usual sensor masking was performed before this battle. And even then, knowing there are gates capable of transporting ships great distances doesn't tell them there are also man sized gates that can work even in the very heart of their battleships.
You are in enemy territory. You have grown soft relying on the advantages you had in your own galaxy. Now, you are almost expecting them.

Sensor masking does not stop the enemy from communicating with each other. They certainly opened a channel to transmit battle data home for later analysis. I also have no doubt that there are passive and/or hidden sensor platforms distributed throughout the system which would take years to hunt down completely. Unless Jason has a way to gather and ship the shipwrecks, any enemy will also find plenty of data in those.

And if that isn't enough... say you loose contact with an experienced battlefleet on watch at your most secret military base after they reported that cosmic event and taking certain precautions to avoid any damage. You see that the cosmic event was stopped before it arrived by unknown forces. Now, without even going there and looking what happened, it obviously was an intelligence behind that event. And to obliterate your entire fleet there you either need an enemy that went there with a fleet of ships or used some unknown terribly powerful weapon.

If said weapon was really so terribly powerful, he could just as easily go and attack you at your home world and force your surrender... or kill the head of the snake in the hopes you don't have contingency plans. Now why would he start with a secret base targeted at taking your precognition ability if he could wipe out fleets so easily? So, most likely it was a fleet of enemy ships.

So, plenty of ways for the Syndicate to learn exactly what happened and deduce all kinds of things from it we would rather they didn't learn. They aren't stupid!
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Re: Retribution, chapter 7, possible ideas and theories (spoilers)

Post by Wolfee » Mon Apr 02, 2018 9:53 pm

MartinK wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 9:08 am
SoronelHaetir wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 6:03 am
But Syndicate leadership has been blinded to what was actually done. At least I assume the usual sensor masking was performed before this battle. And even then, knowing there are gates capable of transporting ships great distances doesn't tell them there are also man sized gates that can work even in the very heart of their battleships.
You are in enemy territory. You have grown soft relying on the advantages you had in your own galaxy. Now, you are almost expecting them.

Sensor masking does not stop the enemy from communicating with each other. They certainly opened a channel to transmit battle data home for later analysis. I also have no doubt that there are passive and/or hidden sensor platforms distributed throughout the system which would take years to hunt down completely. Unless Jason has a way to gather and ship the shipwrecks, any enemy will also find plenty of data in those.

And if that isn't enough... say you loose contact with an experienced battlefleet on watch at your most secret military base after they reported that cosmic event and taking certain precautions to avoid any damage. You see that the cosmic event was stopped before it arrived by unknown forces. Now, without even going there and looking what happened, it obviously was an intelligence behind that event. And to obliterate your entire fleet there you either need an enemy that went there with a fleet of ships or used some unknown terribly powerful weapon.

If said weapon was really so terribly powerful, he could just as easily go and attack you at your home world and force your surrender... or kill the head of the snake in the hopes you don't have contingency plans. Now why would he start with a secret base targeted at taking your precognition ability if he could wipe out fleets so easily? So, most likely it was a fleet of enemy ships.

So, plenty of ways for the Syndicate to learn exactly what happened and deduce all kinds of things from it we would rather they didn't learn. They aren't stupid!
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Re: Retribution, chapter 7, possible ideas and theories (spoilers)

Post by Rakshasa claw » Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:03 pm

It is worth noting that even IF he had a fleet that could crush the syndicate in one blow, stealing the Oracles from the Syndicate to ensure they can't predict it and have their fleets escape would make them a very, VERY valid military target prior to a major military strike. So the fact that they stole the Oracles isn't proof positive that he can't destroy them in a single strike, I mean that is why the Consortium lost. They had better tech and comparable fleets and won most of the battles but the Oracles ensured the Syndicate won the right battles.

And for the record, making a major striking hoping the enemy doesn't have a contingency plan.... that's insane. You should always assume your enemy has contingency plans for the reasons mentioned above by Wolfee.

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Re: Retribution, chapter 7, possible ideas and theories (spoilers)

Post by MartinK » Wed Apr 04, 2018 2:37 am

Rakshasa claw wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:03 pm
So the fact that they stole the Oracles isn't proof positive that he can't destroy them in a single strike, I mean that is why the Consortium lost. They had better tech and comparable fleets and won most of the battles but the Oracles ensured the Syndicate won the right battles
Actually, if they had enough power to end it in one single strike, it wouldn't matter if the Syndicate was able to predict an attack.

Kind of like the predictions on earth about an asteroid impact of suitable size to end all civilization on earth or a supervolcano like Yellowstone erupting. We know that it will happen in the future, just not how much time we have. It might be tomorrow, it might be in a thousand years. But it doesn't really matter since we have no way to stop it. We also have failed to prepare for much smaller natural events our scientists told us would happen. Instead we ignored it, let it happen and played the blame game afterwards.

If you have enough power to just get rid of an invader, you don't waste your time with espionage to find out about tech levels and military secrets. You don't meticulously plan an attack to the extent of creating and using natural events to manouver your enemy into a certain position first before you attack. You also don't waste time in attacking, cleaning up and vanishing before enemy reinforcement arrives.

A friend had a problem with ants getting into his kitchen once. He just used chemical warfare to end those ants. No need to look into them. Just step on them and be done with it.

So, the Syndicate is aware that, while their new enemy has limited resources, they do have a tech advantage in some ways but still are unable to face the Syndicate directly. And there are surely plenty of more things to learn just from their actions.
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Re: Retribution, chapter 7, possible ideas and theories (spoilers)

Post by SYED » Wed Apr 04, 2018 3:45 am

I just had an awesome idea. They rob the benga most valuable bank. That target they would care about. While they likely are digitally based, there must be hard currencies or the equivalent of safety deposit boxes.
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Re: Retribution, chapter 7, possible ideas and theories (spoilers)

Post by Wolfee » Wed Apr 04, 2018 4:38 pm

SYED wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 3:45 am
I just had an awesome idea. They rob the benga most valuable bank. That target they would care about. While they likely are digitally based, there must be hard currencies or the equivalent of safety deposit boxes.

LOL A grand heist to clean out the piggy banks of the board of directors! I live it!

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