Retribution, chapter 1, (spoilers)

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SYED
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Retribution, chapter 1, (spoilers)

Post by SYED » Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:17 pm

Yay, new story, really kind of unexpected, I was thinking we would be getting the earth bond finale first.

The time skip was far shorter than I was expecting, apparently it was only a couple of weeks. So the story will be more focused on andromeda. I was expecting it to be skipped yo the arrival of the consortium evacuation fleet, but thanks to the new advanced FTL engines, they have more options and can meet the fleet I the void of flat space. Jason is planning on finding a distant galaxy to settle them. Since this is a colony fleet, he could give them a range of terraforming tech so they could adapt planets to their needs. According to the Kimdori, they are mass producing stasis pods. So could they mess with their logistics, to smuggle more people out using the nexus bridge.

Most of the syndication operations will be focused around the dreamers. The thing is we see where the general population of them is kept, but what about the oracles that are locked in a nightmare world. They can't go after the general population with out securing the oracles as well. I keep on thinking, if the dreamers were secured on this moon, where was the species originally based? That planet might have valuable clues. But the thing is, to keep the secrets of the dreamers, the ordinal world is likely destroyed.
While they are highly divided, Jason could get a lot of goodwill if they supply plenty of food. I wonder if aria has any actual relatives left on the planet. I bet the benga try to track bloodlines, so keep an eye on oracle development. Due to the mention of them being divided, I wonder if there might be a secret conspiracy on that moon opposing the benga. They can't be happy about the benga messing with them, and kidnapping oracles. The dreamers were said to be similar to the faey, and the faey do have neutral orders and organizations for the greater good. Any such order would have to be secret, or the benga would undermine their efforts.
While they did not recieve everything from their admiral, they must be aware of some of the things that happened to their expedition. While there would be no official notification, I bet there was some back chatter, supplying info to their patrons.

I read this story would how a fictional Mars gained its independence from the corpArations that ran both earth and Mars. Due to some civil disturbance, Mars declared independence. On earth there was a big declaration that they were going to restore order to Mars, by a huge military campaign. But then the full military plans was released. And they were ordered to stick to the plans. And then the corporate executives made sure their assets were protected from military strikes. That act crippled the expeditions ability to respond. The Martian forces used their home field advantage and knowledge of their operations to cripple the expedition. They concentrated on harming their logistics and supply system, operating on such a distance would undermine all their operations.
The benga to me have a similar corrupt corps tigon based system. So their own flaws could be similarly used against them. The corporation each have their own interests that they would prioritize over the welfare of the benga as a whole.
.S.A.M.K.M

SoronelHaetir
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Re: Retribution, chapter 1, (spoilers)

Post by SoronelHaetir » Thu Sep 21, 2017 2:54 am

I see zero chance that Jason would help get more Consortium civilians out. Giving them a one-way trip to somewhere else is one thing providing ongoing support is something else entirely. Giving the Consortium that trip would already piss off plenty of his local allies, doing more would likely be seen as unforgivable. Same with providing terraforming tech. This is a 'if you didn't bring it and it turns out you need it tough shit pal' situation.

I really don't understand how simply having a plan that destroys the oracle home would be enough, in the past they've deomonstrated the ability to see trouble at where they are going and not where they are now. Aria for instance saw the interdiction trap and had the fleet drop out of hyperspace early.

Given that I don't see a plan to engineer a disaster that wipes out the oracle system as viable. If the plan all along is to avert the disaster I would think the oracles would see that, I don't see how someone could hold the contradictory mindsets of allowing the disaster and stopping it at the same time. Better to somehow bring Aria into the planning, inject her experience since being rescued into the dreamscape so that the Dreamers know the offer is legitimate.

Also, I can see whatever oracles are away with other Syndicate fleets as being a much bigger threat than those trapped on the moon. Although Jason has an answer to that, just takes some time to get an infiltrator on board and then perform a nexus jump.

As for the moon itself, can gates work while moving after being linked? If so just send their new whopping big gate through the oracle home system and steal the entire thing out from under the Syndicate.

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Re: Retribution, chapter 1, (spoilers)

Post by SYED » Thu Sep 21, 2017 3:30 am

The impression I got is that the oracles responded to demands and questions put forth by the benga mainly. They would be asking about the expedition, the resistance they are meeting and the new galaxy. They would also be focusing on the consortium. If they could easily detect threats, then they would not have a constant defence force in play.
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Re: Retribution, chapter 1, (spoilers)

Post by Belgarion213 » Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:53 am

Could be that the plan is to destroy the system no matter what, with some group planning to swoop in and pick up the Oracles before it happens.

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Re: Retribution, chapter 1, (spoilers)

Post by artreus » Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:55 am

ouch,
i hope this is Zaa's error, and not Fel,
strange that uber engineer Jason didnt notice

“Wait, 168 isn’t divisible by three,” Zaa noticed.

1+6+8 = 9+6 = 15 = 1+5 = 6 , so it is divisible by three
being 150 +18 / 3 = 50 + 6 = 56

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Re: Retribution, chapter 1, (spoilers)

Post by SoronelHaetir » Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:05 am

One bit I find odd is how poorly Kellin is doing at the exo-mech training. He has been described as an avid bachi player and has had numerous reconstructive procedures to repair injuries suffered while playing. I would have expected him to have mostly gotten over the Faey male mind-set, particularly when it's not his body on the line.

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Re: Retribution, chapter 1, (spoilers)

Post by Tuga555 » Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:33 am

SYED wrote:Yay, new story,(...) the earth bond finale first.
I think/feel that Earth Bond is still as long as Retribution, just the ONU mess/ambassador is another chapter or 2.
SYED wrote:The time skip was far shorter than I was expecting, (...) So could they mess with their logistics, to smuggle more people out using the nexus bridge.
I don't feel that the nexus would make a significant change on the logistical plans, and we still need to see what kind of society the consortium has, how many races, and how loyal are they to the light beings. Because what might have started has a nice gesture for every race... have the insect drones became the soldiers, might have been the trap that turned the consortium into a dictatorship , the light beings are the other's side Benga.
SYED wrote:Most of the syndication operations will be focused around the dreamers. The thing is we see where the general population of them is kept, but what about the oracles that are locked in a nightmare world. They can't go after the general population with out securing the oracles as well. I keep on thinking, if the dreamers were secured on this moon, where was the species originally based? That planet might have valuable clues. But the thing is, to keep the secrets of the dreamers, the ordinal world is likely destroyed.
While they are highly divided, Jason could get a lot of goodwill if they supply plenty of food. I wonder if aria has any actual relatives left on the planet. I bet the benga try to track bloodlines, so keep an eye on oracle development. Due to the mention of them being divided, I wonder if there might be a secret conspiracy on that moon opposing the benga. They can't be happy about the benga messing with them, and kidnapping oracles. The dreamers were said to be similar to the faey, and the faey do have neutral orders and organizations for the greater good. Any such order would have to be secret, or the benga would undermine their efforts.
While they did not recieve everything from their admiral, they must be aware of some of the things that happened to their expedition. While there would be no official notification, I bet there was some back chatter, supplying info to their patrons.
I agree with everything you say here, besides all the time this preparation takes, allows for kindori infiltrators to the oracle's ships, now the problem is, do they just steal the oracle or blow the ship to protect a bigger secret, the bridges?
SYED wrote: I read this story would how a fictional Mars (...) The corporation each have their own interests that they would prioritize over the welfare of the benga as a whole.
Every supply system is riddled with corruption and that's here on earth where it is frowned upon. For the Benga it should be almost standard (unless you got caught of course). So upsetting it should be easy. What i don't know is if Jason has the courage to put Ylia Trefanni and Kumi directing that Kaba pod, the house could pay itself with what they could steal from the Benga

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Re: Retribution, chapter 1, (spoilers)

Post by drowsy19 » Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:43 am

I have to wonder if being good enough at splitting would let you merge into two things at the same time.

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kyli
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Re: Retribution, chapter 1, (spoilers)

Post by kyli » Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:56 pm

SoronelHaetir wrote: I really don't understand how simply having a plan that destroys the oracle home would be enough, in the past they've deomonstrated the ability to see trouble at where they are going and not where they are now. Aria for instance saw the interdiction trap and had the fleet drop out of hyperspace early.

Given that I don't see a plan to engineer a disaster that wipes out the oracle system as viable. If the plan all along is to avert the disaster I would think the oracles would see that, I don't see how someone could hold the contradictory mindsets of allowing the disaster and stopping it at the same time. Better to somehow bring Aria into the planning, inject her experience since being rescued into the dreamscape so that the Dreamers know the offer is legitimate.

Also, I can see whatever oracles are away with other Syndicate fleets as being a much bigger threat than those trapped on the moon. Although Jason has an answer to that, just takes some time to get an infiltrator on board and then perform a nexus jump.

As for the moon itself, can gates work while moving after being linked? If so just send their new whopping big gate through the oracle home system and steal the entire thing out from under the Syndicate.
I have to agree.  If there is a 100% chance that the Karinnes wouldnt wipe out the Dreamers, then the Dreamers shouldnt see any disaster at all.  In order for it to succeed, the Karinnes would have to make sure there is a certain chance that they actually destroy the system.  If there is no chance, then there is no disaster.  Of course, we havent heard this master plan yet so i'm hoping its something that takes this into account. Unless, Fel is dooming this mission from the start...... I'm not saying that they wont free the Dreamers, only that a plan B might be needed quickly, though i'm just speculating.  I think plan A will succeed but from what I've read so far, it really shouldn't.

That huge stargate isnt big enough to fit the Dreamers moon. A small moon can fit though, but the moon the dreamers are on is probably a bit larger then Terra, based on its standard gravity.


And potentially putting FTL drives in fighters would be almost revolutionary for Karinne fighter combat.  Assuming they could switch from FTL to combat mode quickly enough, they could engage FTL for a split second and get inside firing range without having to do a potentially deadly approach. 
And i was honestly waiting for the shoe to drop.  I didnt expect too much to really happen in a first chapter but there is the question someone asked on twitter after conviction14 that "things on Karis are going super well! When's the monkey wrench gonna hit?" He replied, "lol, yes, there's one coming. It's big. And scary.."  I had that in the back of my mind throughout the entire chapter and will continue to think about it until the monkey wrench drops, so to speak.
The Tabis sound interesting.  Jyslin wasnt the only one who thought they would make excellent security animals.  But i would have figured Aria would have gotten one.  A companion like that would have been good for her in my opinion. 

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Fel
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Re: Retribution, chapter 1, (spoilers)

Post by Fel » Thu Sep 21, 2017 1:33 pm

kyli wrote:I have to agree.  If there is a 100% chance that the Karinnes wouldnt wipe out the Dreamers, then the Dreamers shouldnt see any disaster at all.  In order for it to succeed, the Karinnes would have to make sure there is a certain chance that they actually destroy the system.  If there is no chance, then there is no disaster.  Of course, we havent heard this master plan yet so i'm hoping its something that takes this into account. Unless, Fel is dooming this mission from the start...... I'm not saying that they wont free the Dreamers, only that a plan B might be needed quickly, though i'm just speculating.  I think plan A will succeed but from what I've read so far, it really shouldn't.
Knew this would be hard to explain.

The Oracles see things in the reference of the circumstances that exist in the moment that they make their prediction. Because the future can change, predictions based on the progression of future events that are in flux, subject to change, are much less reliable...thus the probability of something coming to pass, instead of a certainty that it will. When Jason sets his plan in motion, at that moment when the Oracles foresee the disaster, they will see it as just that. A disaster that wipes out all life on their moon. In that snapshot of time that the Oracles will see what's coming, every circumstance leads to the same point...doom. When Jason "pushes the button" to start the plan, he has to do so with the full intent and knowledge that he is exterminating the entire Dreamer race. He has to be willing to do it, he has to push that button EXPECTING that the Dreamers will die.

This is IMPORTANT.

Aaaand, because of that, Jason won't be the one that actually presses the button, because he doesn't have that kind of ruthlessness. That job, the job to order the operation to begin and set the plan in motion, will be placed in the scaly hands of someone that does have that capability.

Recall Conviction, how Zaa reported that the Oracle's predictions of what was going to happen changed, because the circumstances upon which she predicted future events changed. This is what Jason is going to be exploiting.

That creates the circumstances that will cause the Oracles to foresee destruction, because in that moment, in that snapshot of time when they make the prediction, that is EXACTLY what is coming. If nothing changes, then they will all die, and the decision to make those changes is based on future events that are in flux, so they are not guaranteed to come to pass. That's why the Karinnes will cut all comm to the Dreamer system AFTER they warn everyone but BEFORE circumstances change that will alter that prediction.

Timing, timing, timing. If their timing is perfect, they'll have fooled people who can see the future by using that very power against them.
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Re: Retribution, chapter 1, (spoilers)

Post by GotToGo » Thu Sep 21, 2017 2:42 pm

Fel,
Wouldn't Jason need to let it destroy them anyway if the Benga will not leave the system? With all those massive ships around them not be a true target, and taking the dreamers out of play to the Benga too? So that if the Dreamers don't make the Benga to believe, they all will die.

A bit heartless but a true military target. Sacrifice a few too save many times more lives in both galaxies.

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Fel
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Re: Retribution, chapter 1, (spoilers)

Post by Fel » Thu Sep 21, 2017 2:56 pm

GotToGo wrote:Fel,
Wouldn't Jason need to let it destroy them anyway if the Benga will not leave the system? With all those massive ships around them not be a true target, and taking the dreamers out of play to the Benga too? So that if the Dreamers don't make the Benga to believe, they all will die.

A bit heartless but a true military target. Sacrifice a few too save many times more lives in both galaxies.
Yes. That's the contingency part of the plan, and one of the major reasons why the plan can work...because they will be executing it fully knowing and understanding that it very well may come to them having to commit genocide.

If they can't free the Dreamers, they have to kill them. They absolutely cannot allow the Syndicate to keep control of the Oracles. or the war with the Syndicate will never end.
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Re: Retribution, chapter 1, (spoilers)

Post by SoronelHaetir » Thu Sep 21, 2017 3:16 pm

Okay, the fact that the attack might have to be allowed to complete was the item I was missing, either it wasn't discussed or I missed it. And yes, in that case I can understand the Dreamers not being able to see through the ruse.

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Re: Retribution, chapter 1, (spoilers)

Post by kyli » Thu Sep 21, 2017 3:18 pm

Fel wrote:
GotToGo wrote:Fel,
Wouldn't Jason need to let it destroy them anyway if the Benga will not leave the system? With all those massive ships around them not be a true target, and taking the dreamers out of play to the Benga too? So that if the Dreamers don't make the Benga to believe, they all will die.

A bit heartless but a true military target. Sacrifice a few too save many times more lives in both galaxies.
Yes. That's the contingency part of the plan, and one of the major reasons why the plan can work...because they will be executing it fully knowing and understanding that it very well may come to them having to commit genocide.

If they can't free the Dreamers, they have to kill them. They absolutely cannot allow the Syndicate to keep control of the Oracles. or the war with the Syndicate will never end.
Ok lf they actually would fully execute the plan if the Syndicate remained behind, then i can see it working since the Dreamers will still see a flee or die situation. I always just assumed they would have abandoned the plan if it failed. I didnt see them as willing to commit genocide after only one failed attempt.

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Re: Retribution, chapter 1, (spoilers)

Post by GotToGo » Thu Sep 21, 2017 3:49 pm

[quote="kyli]
When's the monkey wrench gonna hit?" He replied, "lol, yes, there's one coming. It's big. And scary.."  I had that in the back of my mind throughout the entire chapter and will continue to think about it until the monkey wrench drops, so to speak. [/quote]

Kyli,
Is the potential genocide of the Dreamers not big and scary enough?

Also, on the Tabis is interesting and I wonder what role they end up playing? Makes you wonder how they will react to a Benga and how the Benga will react to a Tabis, would it be like how many humans react to snakes, rats, and/or spiders?

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