Capturing a super ship (potential spoilers)

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SYED
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Capturing a super ship (potential spoilers)

Post by SYED »

So we guess that in the next chapter house karrine will capture nearly intact a syndicate super ship. This will be done by using a weaker megatron to blast open the door down to the central computer core, hack in a specificly designed override system, then decompressing the whole ship at once. Cybi would be in full command of the ship, and can send it to terra to be inspected and refitted. This plan would be aided by an indictor to ensure it can not simply jump to escape, and deny reinforcements the chance to stop them. This whole operation has to be done quick, or the syndicate could have a chance to respond.

This seems like a key battle, so their Oracle system could potentially predict and counter this act.

Due to the sheer scale, and the resources needed to up grade their prize. I can see the house brining in partners, possibly not the confederation as a whole, but the kimdori and the Ruu. They would seem the type to give the ship the best tech around, but willingly let the Karrines be Incharge. These ships are said to be the product of whole systems, so getting aid might be a good idea. The karrine have most of their fleet preparing smaller warships, I wonder if they could dock and be carried by these giants.
It might be quicker and easier to simply let the confederation have most of the super ships, I doubt many single nation can spare the resources to upgrade one, so they would all have to be communal efforts. Even confederation level tech would give them an epic advantage

If the Karrines command ships are known to be able to kill super ships, imagine what an upgraded super ship could do to the syndicate fleet. I am thinking of something with multiple Graf cannons and teryon mass drivers. And it could be the carrier of plenty of Megatron attack forces.

I know they have those stealth ambush ships, decloak, fire, cloak. Do they have cloaked carriers? It would let those Megatron groups get in closer quicker. Can the whales be made stealth capable?

I have this strange idea. The main reason why the confederation has such trouble with the super ships is their hot plasma weapon, can pick them off, one by one. I wonder if a specially designed plasma shield could be an effective defence. It is an EM field that contains plasma covering a ship hull. It purpose is to absorb enemy fire. We know there are plenty of different plasma technologies, could one be adapted to counter the hot plasma? It won't be a perfect solution, but if it can help them stay in the fight long, it could very well be increadibly valuable.

I wonder if the torsion diffuser the syndicates have is that different from the confederation version. Imagine if studying the original version allows theirs to be improved or made more efficient. It might allow them to make the confederation torsion weapons to be viable even.
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Re: Capturing a super ship (potential spoilers)

Post by Hello World »

IIRC, the largest possible CMS ship is frigate sized which is way smaller than a carrier. Although the Urumi stealthfields may have a different size (but those can be more easily detected) so there may be some possibilities there.

And yeah, having a Karinne supership would probably be a mobile Kosigi of sorts, which would just be an almost silly amount of firepower in any engagement.

As for the Oracle system, my assumption is it's an active system where you have to input "What are the chances of doing XX?" or something in order to get a prediction. I'm also guessing the questions have to be very specific. Otherwise, they wouldn't be sending fleets to empty systems if they could just ask "Where should I send my fleets if I want to attack the enemy's systems" or something similar.
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Re: Capturing a super ship (potential spoilers)

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Hello World wrote: As for the Oracle system, my assumption is it's an active system where you have to input "What are the chances of doing XX?" or something in order to get a prediction. I'm also guessing the questions have to be very specific. Otherwise, they wouldn't be sending fleets to empty systems if they could just ask "Where should I send my fleets if I want to attack the enemy's systems" or something similar.
Why do you guys think that the Oracle system is a computer system? Jason did speculate that it was some type of AI but we know from what Fel has said that its a psycic ability.
Fel in another topic wrote:Benga precogs are exactly why they won the war against the Consortium. It's hard to beat someone who has a very good idea of who's going to win a battle before it starts.

But there's a way around a precog...if you're sneaky.
SYED wrote: This seems like a key battle, so their Oracle system could potentially predict and counter this act.
Even if it was predicted, and i think it wasn't, i don't think the sydicate can do anything about it know. That ship is isolated and i don't think it stands a chance. But i think the sydicate will only know that they will loose certain battle groups at this point. Since they don't have any intel from most of those attacks, they probably won't know right away which battles are key.
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Re: Capturing a super ship (potential spoilers)

Post by SYED »

The stealth system needs not hide the ship completely, it it can still detect it just make it near impossible for enemy targeting systems to lock on. It would be less effective, the closer they come to the weapons, but it still could be very useful.

It is said that a karrine engines would take up less space on their version. Would they stick to equivalent systems, or use some of the freed up space to bolster the ability of the systems? I can see them nt beyond equivalency, but not reaching the same percentages as the syndicates have. Say the syndicate engines are 60% of a ship, Karrines can do the same with 15, but instead they dedicate 30 so the ship would have faster and more capable engine than an equivalent enemy ship.

T is said their stasis units can feed into, in their trance states. They use telepathy yo share info, and I bet yo make peopl move their bodies in the real world, to affect systems. Look at what people are capable of while sleep walking. I bet with merge systems, the karrine version would be epic. Hopefully, while the only known system is on the planetoid super ship, the targeted one is large enough to be worth being fitted with the system.
Has anyone seen this show that was on? It had this guy fitted with this computer chip, it not only allowed him wireless access to systems, but it could use it to pool data and intelligence about a situation, event or operations in a simulated world. His mind would then fill in the blanks, using human intuition and deductions. It had the red head from CSI, the one that played Catherine willows.
I wonder if the karrine version would allow a more flexible divination about the future. The thing is this might be a telepathic system, so most useful to those races with the greater number of telepathy capable people. Do a big advantage to the imperium. Most races use their limited number of telepaths for spying or countering telepaths themselves. Now they would be dedicated to the oracle system.
If it is simply a computer system, then biogenic said would give it a huge boost for house karrine. But then it would beg the question, how come the consortium never had their own version?
This talk about tricking precogs, it reminds me of the film minority report. Where a man was framed for murder, or got away with murder as he played the system. They might know the players involved, but they can always change the game

Jason should ask the Parri Parri if there is a way for Oye trees to grow on terra. It would be a way to bring their wisdom to the confederation.

It would be cool if the karrine telekinetic deflection technique could be use to sent enemy fire into other enemy units.

Confederation ships are getting picked off one at a time as they can't inflict damage on the super ships to the needed level before they return fire. They should pool their targeting data for weapons like the mass driver, so they all go after the same spot, like the weapons that are killing their ships. If they could concentrate all their fire power into a singular location, they could at least make the ship vulnerable.

I have a cool way for kimdori to mess with the syndicate forces. The first is to locate all proprietary data, and share it with every one, sure there would be patents, but once the data is out, it is out. It would undermine their dealings as they can easily go to competitors for the same things. It would also give the academy a ton of data, to fuel the development of the confederation.
Has any seen mr robot? They attacked a company by messing with the records of debts, people every where were freed from debt. I bet the slaves in the corpArations owe money, which decides their freedom. If those records were destroyed or corrupted, the companies would be crippled and slaves made free.
The syndicate apparently has infighting and assassinations, but only acceptable if they don't get caught. So if they suddenly had their crimes revealed, their own people would pull them down. They should follow the money, in such a corpArations driven society, there must be hidden funds, monies made illegally or used to enable their crimes.
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Re: Capturing a super ship (potential spoilers)

Post by Hello World »

kyli wrote:
Why do you guys think that the Oracle system is a computer system? Jason did speculate that it was some type of AI but we know from what Fel has said that its a psycic ability.
I never said that the Oracle system is a computer system. I just said that the divination has to be very focused. ie. Somebody could only ask the question "is this exact event going to be successful" instead of "is this war going to be successful"
kyli wrote: Even if it was predicted, and i think it wasn't, i don't think the sydicate can do anything about it know.
Well, the syndicate could prep the ship for self destruct in case they lose it if they actually knew that the possibility of losing the ship may be high.
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Re: Capturing a super ship (potential spoilers)

Post by MartinK »

Hello World wrote:Well, the syndicate could prep the ship for self destruct in case they lose it if they actually knew that the possibility of losing the ship may be high.
I doubt the syndicate would build any sort of self destruct in their biggest, most powerful ship types. In a world full of conspiracy, betrayal and underhanded deals, the thread of sabotage is a lot more likely than someone actually trying to capture a ship the size of a small moon with hundreds of thousands of people fighting against them... well, that possibility would likely seem rather close to zero even if looked at realistically, which the natural arrogance and pride for that ship type would certainly make a bit difficult.

On the other hand, ways to eliminate the crew by opening all airlocks or spreading gas should be a lot harder to activate for boarders - still, those options have to be included since those moon sized ships are essentially their own worlds and they can certainly stage a mutiny.

As for the danger from oracle predictions on the enemy side... I believe those negligible, because before you are able to predict something, you have to be able to actually consider the possibility. If you believe something is impossible, it will never occur to you that the enemy will still try to do the impossible. And here it will be tried without any desperation at all, which increases the chance an enemy tries something you consider insane.
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Re: Capturing a super ship (potential spoilers)

Post by kyli »

MartinK wrote: As for the danger from oracle predictions on the enemy side... I believe those negligible, because before you are able to predict something, you have to be able to actually consider the possibility. If you believe something is impossible, it will never occur to you that the enemy will still try to do the impossible. And here it will be tried without any desperation at all, which increases the chance an enemy tries something you consider insane.
I agree that the threat of the syndicate oracle is negligible in this case only, but not for the same reason. If a precog couldn’t see the unexpected, then it would not be such an awesome advantage. So let me try and wright down some thoughts and speculation about the ramifications of seeing into the future:

First of all, if you can see the future, then it also means you can change the future. That means there are many possible futures and the more people who know the future, the more possibilities there are because more people will have the option of changing it. I would assume that the more possibilities there are, the blurrier the future would be for anyone trying to look into it and also the further ahead you try and look, the blurrier it will be. Because of that, I think if the Kimdori on the super ship could gain access to the oracle system without being discovered, they could blur what the pregog can see. This might be why the Syndicate have succeeded in keeping in such a big secret if they are forced to only tell those that absolutely need to know in order to give the precogs a more “clear” image of the future. Of course, I think it might be a challenge, even for the Kimdori, to discover the oracle system without the precog knowing they have been infiltrated. After all, as soon as the Kimdori discover it, it’s bound to change the possible futures a great deal and the precog would know something important just happened.

Now I also assume that a precog will not be able to see something unless that something has the possibility of impacting him/her in the near future. That is why they are probably still unaware of the interdictor at Oasis. So long as the Karinnes don’t activate it in the near furture, the pregog should not be aware of it. The same goes for the ship the Karinnes are trying to capture. Since there are no communications and the syndicate probably won’t discover that the super ship has been captured for possibly months, if at all, then the precog shouldn’t be able to predict it yet. But remember, this is all just speculation on my part.

Now let me bring up something from Brandon Sanderson’s Mistborn Trilogy. In the series, some individuals can for a short period of time gain the ability to see a few seconds into the future. This makes them nearly invincible in a fight unless they face someone who can do the same. Then instead of seeing one possibility of what their opponent is going to do, they see hundreds of possibilities because their opponent can also see into the future which changes what he’s going to do, which changes what their going to do, which again changes what he will do and so on…. That’s just something to think about.
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Re: Capturing a super ship (potential spoilers)

Post by SYED »

Before the biogenics or the oracle systems, was there any mentions of psychic abilities affecting or influencing non living entities? The syndicate are said to be less advanced that the confederation, consortium or the Karrines, yet they have a technological system that interacts with a telepathic power.

Biogenics only work for generations, so the oracle system might only work for Benga. If other telepaths can access the system, will all confederation members benefit from it? Could some races get their own unique versions due to their own unique telepathic potential? That race where males go crazy if they detect male not related to them, might focus on male competitors.
There have been no mentions about the benga have any other augemented mental skills. So this precog system only works for this gift. It might be that the benga only has telepathy and precognition. Imagine it combined with the enhancement capability of biogenic systems as well as linking minds to computers. This might be part of the reason the consortium was desperate for generations.

Telepathy is about people, so the precog system could be about the decisions people make.
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Re: Capturing a super ship (potential spoilers)

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kyli wrote:I agree that the threat of the syndicate oracle is negligible in this case only, but not for the same reason. If a precog couldn’t see the unexpected, then it would not be such an awesome advantage.
If you go shopping into the city, an encounter with a friend you haven't seen for a while is unexpected. You don't consider it impossible so you won't be blended by your own expectations. On the other hand, if you encounter some childhood friend who you thought had an accident long ago and died, that would also be unexpected but you wouldn't have seen it as a precog because your own assumptions worked against you.

So, of course a precog is still powerful. But it would have been even more powerful if the precog wouldn't have any presumptions that close the mind to certain possibilities.
kyli wrote:First of all, if you can see the future, then it also means you can change the future. That means there are many possible futures and the more people who know the future
I don't see how that necessarily follows from the existence of precogs. There is also the possibility that a precog can only see what is set in stone. You don't see the results. You see a disconnected scene of how a fight gets started. Let us say there is a huge space battle. You have your elements positioned all over the place and your precog doesn't tell you that you'll win. Instead, he tells you that the unit you put on the outer left side will get flanked. You will now go and put enough reinforcements at that place to lay a trap for those flankers. The vision is still true, only the effect on the battle is completely inverted.

You see the vision of the battle because there is no way you would stop the battle at this point in time. You see the scene of the flankers because you certainly will have a flank the enemy will attack. You don't any scenes of the reinforcements joining the battle resulting from the flanking maneuvers because you haven't set up that trap yet - or if you have, your enemy might have a spy in your ranks and finds a way to force you to use those reinforcements before that flanking maneuver somewhere else.

It gets quite involved and convoluted. I don't want to even think about how complicated it might get if the other side gets their hands on a precog of their own as well. A battle of warships? Hah! Not going to happen, the precogs will fight the battle in their minds beforehand and just tell your commanders which side wins and which ships get destroyed before it all started. But wait, if they do that then that battle won't happen and they shouldn't see anything.... uhhh... bah, I'll get a headache if i don't stop here. ;)
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Re: Capturing a super ship (potential spoilers)

Post by kyli »

SYED wrote:Before the biogenics or the oracle systems, was there any mentions of psychic abilities affecting or influencing non living entities? The syndicate are said to be less advanced that the confederation, consortium or the Karrines, yet they have a technological system that interacts with a telepathic power.
Ummm, how about telekinesis. And they have a system that interacts with the brain, not psychic abilities. I haven't found that system very impressive in any case since it seems even less advanced then cyberjacks.
SYED wrote: Biogenics only work for generations, so the oracle system might only work for Benga. If other telepaths can access the system, will all confederation members benefit from it? Could some races get their own unique versions due to their own unique telepathic potential? That race where males go crazy if they detect male not related to them, might focus on male competitors.
It still sounds like you are thinging of the Oracle system as some kind of technology. Its a living being that has a rare psychic ability who's brain is kept in a subconscious dream state by a technological system. But the technological system is only responsible for allowing someone to use his ability in hyperspace. And thats something that a cyberjack can do even better.
MartinK wrote: If you go shopping into the city, an encounter with a friend you haven't seen for a while is unexpected. You don't consider it impossible so you won't be blended by your own expectations. On the other hand, if you encounter some childhood friend who you thought had an accident long ago and died, that would also be unexpected but you wouldn't have seen it as a precog because your own assumptions worked against you.

So, of course a precog is still powerful. But it would have been even more powerful if the precog wouldn't have any presumptions that close the mind to certain possibilities.
As i understand it, a precog is about seeing the future. Not about asking questions to some mystical being and not getting any answers to questions you don't ask. I precog should know the future even if that future is something it would never have considered.
..... There is also the possibility that a precog can only see what is set in stone. You don't see the results. ......
.....Hah! Not going to happen, the precogs will fight the battle in their minds beforehand and just tell your commanders which side wins and which ships get destroyed before it all started. But wait, if they do that then that battle won't happen and they shouldn't see anything.... uhhh... bah, I'll get a headache if i don't stop here. :wink:
I actually considered that but the Oracle system did mention a percentage chance of winning so its not set in stone. And I agree that you can get a headache if you think to long about predicting the future. :o

PS sorry for these long winded speeches. They are very unlike me. Especially since i have to do it all on my phone. :shock:
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Re: Capturing a super ship (potential spoilers)

Post by SYED »

Telepathy is said to ignore distance and time, which is why generations don't suffer from merging in different time states. The benga likely had to train themselves extensively to adapt for somethin, that is natural for a generation, so to use the oracle system. Biogenics allow the Karrines to ignore distance so real time FTL communications every where, so what if the oracle system allows them to greatly ignore time somehow. It might mean the past is easier to perceive, or that looking beyond the present is more difficult, the further away the event they are trying to see.
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Re: Capturing a super ship (potential spoilers)

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SYED wrote:Telepathy is said to ignore distance and time, which is why generations don't suffer from merging in different time states.
Definitely not! Telepathy has nothing to do with it. Its a generations ability to literally think about two or more things at the same time that lets them do this without getting a headache.
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Re: Capturing a super ship (potential spoilers)

Post by betatester »

NO its Telepathy being able to ignore distance and time. reread the chapters in conviction and you'll find the reference
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Re: Capturing a super ship (potential spoilers)

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betatester wrote:NO its Telepathy being able to ignore distance and time. reread the chapters in conviction and you'll find the reference
Well without biogenics, its not possible to merge with a device further away then a few light years because of the delay. I never forgot that telepathy can communicate in real time at huge distances. But "SYED" also said:
.....which is why generations don't suffer from merging in different time states.

That is where i corrected him.
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Re: Capturing a super ship (potential spoilers)

Post by MartinK »

betatester wrote:NO its Telepathy being able to ignore distance and time. reread the chapters in conviction and you'll find the reference
Uhm, not exactly... otherwise there would be no need to put the mindstrikers into two-seat-fighters to strike at the enemy fighters. They could do so in comfort from behind the lines.
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