chapter 7 (spoiler) discussion responses to actions

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SYED
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Re: chapter 7 (spoiler) discussion responses to actions

Post by SYED »

Making slavery costly would really shake up the system. Could they sustain their power structure if such a shift occurred? The increase in available man power would alter their aims and priorities, so new projects would be started up to take advantage of this. That might have the concequence of increasing the military. On the other hand, they could send the extra personnel to terraform or colonise new worlds. I wonder if it is possible to revive those slain world's in andromeda.

The thing is there are likely to be companies that earn money from the war, but those other projects could earn other companies money so get their backing. If deception is so big amongst the Benga I bet they do a lot of illegal things, under the mantra don't get caught. The corpArations are likely to spy upon each other. The kimdori does not have to frame them, they just reveal their existing secrets. Their own rules and laws would penalize them.

Those planet killers, any chance they could be secretly purposes. If they are already in place, might as well use them in some manner. They ignite the atmosphere, but then leave the world ready to be reclaimed with some effort. So could it be used to create storms, force them to invest resources in every world to help them.

They claim due to their tech, they can free up atleast 50% of their ship space by replacing the engines. That is not counting the replacing and upgrading of the other technological systems. We have seen how karrine warships go against other of equivalent class, imagine a moon ship with karrine tech. I bet it could be an epic forward base, especially seeing as small ships can take down the big ships. A lot of the freed up space in the ship could be used as docking and repair spaces.

The academy could start a project to allow them to compete with the moon ships, they could learn how to make inflating asteroids viable. Using them as a base, would make constructing such huge vegicles even easier.
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Re: chapter 7 (spoiler) discussion responses to actions

Post by Belgarion213 »

Te real issue is again your only going to hit a very minor part of these guys Empire. I mean, they control half a galaxy. Even with the indescriminate slaughter over the last 6000 years in the war against the Consortium, that's an almost incalculable combination of raw resources and sheer population. Much like the Imperium of Man in Warhammer 40,000, pure manpower might very well be an almost endless supply. The amount of damage you would need to do to have it impact on a galactic level could very well bankrupt the Milky Way empires.

And yeah, the allied empire's don't want the salves coming over to the Milky Way either, its already crowded enough.

Now, using the planet busters that are in plac...I'm not sure that's a real viable way unless your going to blackmail somebody by saying you could activate it t any time (but that only works if your willing ot pull the trigger and kill potentially billions to trillions of potential non-combatants).

Now, my personal view if they want to go over there and cause havoc is get some kind of major computer virus going. The Kimdori ability to impact it could really screw things up...and might be to throw a wrench in the prediction programs ability to report things (it doesn't do you much good if you can predict somebody if you can't act on that information).

Really, other than somehow rewriting the laws of physics or creating a barrier around Andromeda I'm really having a hard idea of a end game on STOPPING a galactic force like the Syndicate or the Consortium. The sheer numbers on their size are mind boggling. Yeah, compared to when it was just the Faey and a few others the 'good guys' have grown a lot more numerous but its still a very big numbers imbalance and without something like a WMD to force people to the negotiating table (provided you could trust them to abide by the terms) its hard to imagine how the Karines are going to force the Consortium or the Syndicate to chose another galaxy to go bother. Jason is to morally centred to consider doing something like detonating a galaxy (with very good reason) but it leaves people fighting untold quadrillions of enemies who simply won't stop coming.

It's a very tricky situation that's been placed before everybody involved.
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Re: chapter 7 (spoiler) discussion responses to actions

Post by Mizriath »

Hmm.... i was thinking JAson is just going to throw in, I forgot the term that was used by Fel, a kind of growing black hole or nebula or solar storm in one of the earlier chapters, that basically wipes out systems and it moves. It is devastating but Jason needs to be devastating since the Consortium wipes out the planets in our galaxy. And the Syndicates are worse.
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Re: chapter 7 (spoiler) discussion responses to actions

Post by MartinK »

Mizriath wrote:Hmm.... i was thinking JAson is just going to throw in, I forgot the term that was used by Fel, a kind of growing black hole or nebula or solar storm in one of the earlier chapters, that basically wipes out systems and it moves. It is devastating but Jason needs to be devastating since the Consortium wipes out the planets in our galaxy. And the Syndicates are worse.
Yeah, that thing moves and there is no stopping it. It was mentioned as a worst possible case and since Jason is sort of the good guys leader, no way will he use anything that kills off whole star clusters.

Also, since that thing moves, what is to stop it moving towards the milky way galaxy? A thousand years after the Andromeda Galaxy was decimated it may start in on eating up OUR galaxy. No, using such a thing as that is not just irresponsible, it is plain evil.
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Re: chapter 7 (spoiler) discussion responses to actions

Post by SYED »

The thing is with the new tech, Karrines are allowing smaller ships capable of dealing with the moon ships. It seems like the Benga use the force of these huge ships to win their battles, but if that advantage is reduced, then they won't be key. So their material advantage won't be that big a help. A few captured and converted moon ships, to support these fleets of minor ships.

If they can jam their intellarstellar communication systems, by using those hidden systems to place those systems needed. That would cost those corpArations a great deal. Forcing them to depend on a courier based communication system. They could make it so only karrine systems are viable in that Galaxy.

The benga were apparently unaware the Karrines had telepathic computers, I bet they would be amazed at the generations. The imperium has a school dedicated to the telepathic arts correct, so it is reasonable to believe that such a telepathic race as the Benga has a similar institution. So if the kimdori gained access to this database, they could learn a lot. This would allow the Karrines to co opt the systems for themselves. Leaving benga only their material and number advantage.
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Re: chapter 7 (spoiler) discussion responses to actions

Post by Belgarion213 »

Well the Kimdori are not themselves telepathic (or at least we have no evidence of a telepathic Kimdori), so I'm not sure how much use getting them near the telepathic school would be. Sure they can hide themselves but other than finding out in general terms what kind of tricks the Benga like to use its not going to help much.

I also agree that as Karine ships get smaller and better able to destroy the Moon ships the difference in materials is not going to be AS big a difference but quantity has a quality all its own. When they can afford to send a thousand ship, from a thousand shipyards for a single Karine ship its going to rank up.

Now if they get the Karine type Translite drives on a few captured Moon Ships and use the moon ships to ferry around entire fleets, that's a different matter...but it still leaves potentially hundreds of thousands of systems to have to fight off. Yeah, Lorna's good and the ships the Karines and their ally's are making are great but...that's a LOT of ships to fight.

As I said I'm really struggling to see the end game with the Consortium/Syndicate. When Jason and suc were fighting against the Fey, the end goal was rather clear. Jason wanted the governship of earth to be a Human, for the Fey to stop being dicks to the human's , but he wanted to remain in the Imperium (to avoid Earth getting picked off by any of the other Empire's).

Here, both the Consortium and the Syndicate can't be trusted, are horribly regimes, and have so much material advantage that Jason can't just out tech them like he did to a few of the other brutal regimes who pissed him off. He has to get into a real nasty slugging war. he can't conquer that much territory, he doesn't wan that amount of civilian casualties it would take to cripple the empire's. Even if they surrendered nobody could trust them...
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Re: chapter 7 (spoiler) discussion responses to actions

Post by SYED »

They need to establish stronger defences, potentially making capable of being mobile so to redeploy them if needed. The Karrines had that canon on the moon that would keep going until it hit something. They now have a version on their ships. If the other nations had a similar weapon, a weapon that has no range limitation, then the Benga use of giant ships would be a weakness. They are simply bigger targets, easier to hit at extreme ranges.
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Re: chapter 7 (spoiler) discussion responses to actions

Post by kyli »

Belgarion213 wrote: As I said I'm really struggling to see the end game with the Consortium/Syndicate. When Jason and suc were fighting against the Fey, the end goal was rather clear. Jason wanted the governship of earth to be a Human, for the Fey to stop being dicks to the human's , but he wanted to remain in the Imperium (to avoid Earth getting picked off by any of the other Empire's).
I agree. I've always struggled with seeing an endgame as well. I've read many idea's on here recently but they all either seem like pin pricks vs an Empire as large as the syndicate, or are something i hope Jason will never seriously consider. I'm of course talking about that doomsday bomb that was very briefly mentioned in an earlier book. I'm unpleasantly surprised how often that was mentioned. In a universe that exists for many more billions of years, the permanent rupture in space that the bomb creates could destroy thousands of galaxies over such a long period of time. In my opinion, it would be better if the syndicate won, though that won't make a good story.

So how to win a war vs an enemy with unlimited resources? Target the leaders. The Karinnes might only be inflicting pin pricks with lots of attacks on targets of opportunity but if they focus on a surgical attack on the leaders, it could work if they arrange for a change in goverment and policy to replace the leaders. It may or may not work but its one of my best ideas. We'll see what brilliant sceme Fel comes up with.

And i personally think the consortium will sue for peace fairly quickly. I don't think the confederation would let them into the milky way but there are other galaxies around. Think of this, the syndicate fights for greed but the consortium fights for survival.
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Re: chapter 7 (spoiler) discussion responses to actions

Post by SYED »

I can see Jason making a deal with the consortium, they might settle in the Milky Way or perhaps that near by Galaxy Jason visited. Hopefully such a deal favors the confederation, like full access to their tech and scientific databases, as well as full intelligence concerning the andromeda galaxy and the Benga syndicate. I bet if Jason could get the shaman to contact the energy beings directly, it would make them come to the table.

I think to keep the Benga in check, Jason needs to demonstrate three things. The first is the capability to reach and return from andromeda at will for his fleet. The second is the possession of a huge technological advantage, demonstrated by a fleet capable of causing untold damage against the syndicate. These two will hopefully soon be fully achieved and realized, allowing for the invading fleets to be repulsed.
The third aspect is the trickiest and possibly impossible, but it is the only thing that would truly cause the benga, a bunch of conquering ambitious slavers to back down. One of the biggest reasons why the benga are a threat are their mental abilities, not only their telepathy but their ability in some manner to perceive portions of the future. The imperium and the other telepaths of the confederation can keep most of their telepathic issues in check to match the enemy, and the generations can used their amplified and enhanced telepathic and telekinetic abilities on the battle field for a big tactical advantage.
The divination abilities will be the key issue. If Jason can mimic, block or turn this power against the Benga, that would greatly undermine them. The loss of such an advantage would make any one cautious. From the description of the stasis tech, I have a theory about how they achieved this advantage with their lower tech level. The stasis tech placed the subject in a unique state of mind, I wonder if it can artificially place a subject in the right mental state to allow for enhanced prophetic abilities that potentially be directed for a specific purpose. If so, then house karrine could create their own version, which would be enhanced by the biogenic systems that allow any mental talent to be strengthen and enhanced.
They just need to find a generation with just a hint of that talent, and allow their system to enhance it to use against the enemy. We know house karrine had a breeding program to enhance their mental gifts, I can't believe they would ignore the other abilities, even if they could get proven results. The fact they do not suffer ill effects to merging a unit in a location with temporal issues makes me very optimistic. It also makes me wonder would an application of the tech or techniques allow the other rare gifts to be more viable.
Could someone post the mental gifts that have been attributed to the telepaths of the imperium? I know pyrokinetic is one, that would be epic on the battle field.
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Re: chapter 7 (spoiler) discussion responses to actions

Post by expedient »

SYED wrote:The divination abilities will be the key issue. If Jason can mimic, block or turn this power against the Benga, that would greatly undermine them.
I agree with this. It is their ability to know when and where to commit their forces that underpins the Syndicate's arrogance. Either by undermining this or by showing that even if they are aware of key events the Karinnes can counter them or overpower them the Syndicate will begin to doubt themselves.

I believe the Parri have already begun Jason on his path to discover the abilities needed. [accompanied by the sounds of wind chimes and rustling leaves]

Plus killing off the more intractable leaders should help too. :twisted:
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Re: chapter 7 (spoiler) discussion responses to actions

Post by MartinK »

kyli wrote:So how to win a war vs an enemy with unlimited resources? Target the leaders. The Karinnes might only be inflicting pin pricks with lots of attacks on targets of opportunity but if they focus on a surgical attack on the leaders, it could work if they arrange for a change in goverment and policy to replace the leaders. It may or may not work but its one of my best ideas. We'll see what brilliant sceme Fel comes up with.

And i personally think the consortium will sue for peace fairly quickly. I don't think the confederation would let them into the milky way but there are other galaxies around. Think of this, the syndicate fights for greed but the consortium fights for survival.
I disagree that targeting the leadership will help in any way. The society that leadership grew up in is based upon distrust, betrayal and exploitation. I expect that a small number of the leadership regularly changes due to accidental death. It is not the leadership you have to target but the society itself. And that is only possible by becoming part of that society, for which the Kimdori are uniquely suited. Take over one of the huge corporations after another, create new ones that grow naturally and sabotage (with information!) the corps with the worst excesses. Then, over time, change over from values of that society to the one you want to change it into. Be variable for all corporation leadership under your control. Over time, possibly generations, the society will change.

In the meantime, fight a defensive war in the Milky Way Galaxy as well as manipulate how many ships are getting send and when. Who knows, they might have also send scouts to other galaxies. Better to know if they open their very own pandoras box. It might swap over to your galaxy later on, so better to know now.
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Re: chapter 7 (spoiler) discussion responses to actions

Post by kyli »

I know that just killing the leaders won't work. Thats why a revolution would be needed. I guess i didn't make that clear enough. I'm typing on my phone.

The karinnes may not need unlimited resources to match the syndicate if they can support or create someone else with resources to fight the syndicate. (ie. A revolution inside the syndicate thats supported and maybe guided a bit by the kimdori but not led by them.) The Benga would also not need to be the ones in charge after such a revolution. I don't think any Benga led government could be trusted.
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Re: chapter 7 (spoiler) discussion responses to actions

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If the corpArations structure so imbedded could some way creating massive profits keep them in check. Sort of how Jason bolstered the businesses and empire so greatly profit terrain from the confederation, so much so that they would keep the confederation even after the threat of the andromeda forces has been dealt with.

Do you guys remember the stargate tv series? The idea about shaman powers and enhanced mental abilities reminds me of Ascension. Part of it was genetic evolution and another was a state of mind by reaching a new level of conciousness. Imagine if he develops the augementation state of mind technology, which would serve as a way for not only access to precognition but the other rare talents.
I wonder if the tech could allow a generation to access the realm of shaman abilities. That would be a huge advantage for the house. With the academy and confederation generally raising up the differing nations, the Karrines could have potentially needed an ace in the hole, to keep any possible enemy in check. Shaman ability could introduce a whole range of abilities and skills that would make the houses dangerous enemy to have.
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Re: chapter 7 (spoiler) discussion responses to actions

Post by physicalard »

I am expecting jason to attack trade the same way he did against the Faey. I am picturing roving groups of automated weapons and massive numbers of frigate with the new CMS armor and trans light drives. With bionoid crews, operating continuously the frigates can attack and destroy a few transports go to FTL then attack some more transports in another part of the system. When a military response gets too strong, jump to another system and go back in stealthed to repeat. A few hundred frigates being used like this could damage trade. A few thousand could devastate trade. You couldn't find the ships, chase them, hit them, or permanently damage them, and no house members would be at risk of death.
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Re: chapter 7 (spoiler) discussion responses to actions

Post by SYED »

We know at some point the consortium had access to a hyper space catapult, I wonder if the syndicate could have a catapult network. Targeting them would greatly affect shipping and transport. For a galactic empire to be truly viable, it needs some kind of advanced transport network, otherwise there would be extrem shipping times.

Can an indictor work if it goes into translight speed?
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