Book 5 - Karis Battle

[kyli]

Sorry about dragging things back to book 5 but somethings been bothering me for awhile about the battle at Karis. Everybody seems to think that just because the consortium could jump ships outbound on an interdiction effect that they would escape from the battle. Did nobody think about the second layer or what? They would only have gotten a light year away and then they would be stuck. None managed to escape but the karinnes shouldn't have panicked the way they did since none COULD have escaped.

[MartinK]

All the hyperspace interdictors are synchronized with each other. It was never explained how exactly that happens, but since we know the reactions of the good guys about exactly the possibility you are asking about we can assume that synchronized interdictor fields only destabilize hyperspace outward from the very center.

After all, if you put two interdictors next to each other without synchronizing they lower each others performance down sharply. And if you simply put them far enough from each other that they don't interfere with their respective neighbours you get holes in the grid. An interdictor field is, after all, a sphere. It wouldn't be all that helpful to only interdict direct lines and some places but not others. The enemy could just analyze it for a few minutes and walk through those nifty, predictable holes like a minefield. Avoid the mines and you are fine.

[Fel]

All the hyperspace interdictors are synchronized with each other. It was never explained how exactly that happens, but since we know the reactions of the good guys about exactly the possibility you are asking about we can assume that synchronized interdictor fields only destabilize hyperspace outward from the very center.

You, sir, get a cookie. This is partially how it actually works.

the full description is that layered interdiction fields intersect, they don't touch edges, and each additional layer of interdiction only uses half its interdiction field to extend the field out further. That's why there's only a three light year interdiction field around Karis instead of a FIVE light year field. To maintain maximum coverage and prevent ships from maneuvering along the edges of the interdiction fields, the second and third layers of the multi-interdiction field around the system only extend it out ONE light year, instead of two.

Remember, the interdictor has a interdiction field of a one light year RADIUS, not DIAMETER.

The interdictors are arrayed so that the next layer of interdictors sits right at the edge of the interior layer's interdiction effect, extending the interdiction out one more light year. This array creates an overal interdiction field that generates its field in a uniform direction, i.e., the entire interdiction field has a uniform waveform, and thus the entire field is "outbound" all the way to the edge.

By layering the interdictors in this manner, it creates an overall complete sphere of interdiction 3 light years in radius rather than am irregular rumple-bordered effect that might be 5 years in radius at one point and 1.6 years at another. The objective of the interdiction field is to prevent maximum difficulty for those jumping IN, they don't much care about the ability of ships already in to jump OUT.

[kyli]

By layering the interdictors in this manner, it creates an overall complete sphere of interdiction 3 light years in radius rather than am irregular rumple-bordered effect that might be 5 years in radius at one point and 1.6 years at another. The objective of the interdiction field is to prevent maximum difficulty for those jumping IN, they don't much care about the ability of ships already in to jump OUT.

Well I learned something today. I thought that the rumpled-bordered effect was exactly how it worked. So that means that they couldn't jump out?

Another question. Could the maximum power of an interditor be increased somehow? That they come out to exactly 1 light year seems a bit too coincidental to be possible unless it was done on purpose. Maybe the old karrinnes made it like that because they thought 1 light year was lots and nobody bothered to change the designs. I don't beleive in coincidences.

[MartinK]

Well I learned something today. I thought that the rumpled-bordered effect was exactly how it worked. So that means that they couldn't jump out?

You just learned how the interdiction effect got stacked by multiple interdictors. Why are you now asking the same question again?

Another question. Could the maximum power of an interditor be increased somehow? That they come out to exactly 1 light year seems a bit too coincidental to be possible unless it was done on purpose. Maybe the old karrinnes made it like that because they thought 1 light year was lots and nobody bothered to change the designs. I don't beleive in coincidences.

I'll bet again, lets see if i get another cookie!

You can build the interdictor bigger. At the current modell, it has neither a big enough interdiction generator nor a big enough power source to support that generator. There are margins of safety build in which would allow both of those to run at more than the maximum capacity at the cost of permanent lower capacity later on. It is, after all, designed to run permanently for many years on end. However, if you build it bigger, you will run into the law of diminishing returns. It is cheap to build up the effect close to the interdictor, but it gets more expensive the further you have to reach. I believe it is called the inverse-square law. You have to use four times the power to reach twice as far.

Thus, it is far easier to just build two small ones to get the effect of one big one. The big one would require the same time and resources to build as four of the small, current generation ones. Damn the law of physics!

And of course you can't build it much smaller, although that would be very helpful. It does not only consist out of stuff that can be miniaturized. Some parts can't be done smaller without losing its efficiency. Luckily the 1 light year value fell right into the small range that was possible. Wait... light year is dependent on the planet of origin. Are we talking about a terran year? A faey year? We, as in humanity, already have problems just erradicating the imperial system. Most of the world uses the metric system, only the US and some unimportant backwater places don't. And the side we drive our cars on is also not the same the world over. How is that managed among the Confederation. Hm... do they all speak Faey at their conferences? I doubt they agreed to speak in only one language out of which would result the implied length of a year.

On a side note: I believe at least one very expensive project humanity send out into space crashed because some people programmed it with miles in mind and some others thought they were using km. Now that is really a silly reason to waste millions of dollars.

[SoronelHaetir]

I too thought the "rumpled border" was the result you would end up with.

One thing I see though is that it doesn't really matter how "thick" the field is once it is beyond some minimal amount - say a couple weeks sublight travel (so long as it is a continuous barrier).

Either the interdictor works (because the enemy can't jump through it) or it is basically useless no matter how many of them you have. If it works then even just a few weeks field thickness should be enough, you attack the enemy fleet as well as simply plotting where the enemy chose to attack and then stacking more interdictors along that particular path rather than everywhere.

As for stacked interdictors intersecting and only using half their power to expand the field, wouldn't that depend entirely on how close or far apart they are placed? Unless there is some requirement of the interdiction effect itself that requires the entire volume covered by multiple interdictors to be saturated (meaning no 'hollow' center)?

If a hollow center is okay then it should be even easier to build out the shell. As soon as you get enough devices to completely hide one of the interior devices from the outside of the field you can turn it off and move it to the outer layer. So a layer that needs 'n' total interdictors should only need 'm' new ones, where 'm' is the number of interdictors needed for the next layer in..

[kyli]

One thing I see though is that it doesn't really matter how "thick" the field is once it is beyond some minimal amount - say a couple weeks sublight travel (so long as it is a continuous barrier).

A couple weeks sublight would be a few minutes with the fastest FTL drive we've seen so far. Thats why I'd like to see larger interdictors.

[SoronelHaetir]

My point is that with a couple weeks notice you then have time to park another interdictor on the other side of that gap and suddenly the enemy is looking at a travel time a whole lot longer than a couple weeks, and without the cost of filling the entire volume to be interficted (again so long as the effect will still work when the center is hollow). And of course, during that couple weeks and then the extra time you can be hammering away at the enemy.

I'm imagining the surface of a sphere of three or four ly diameter, made up of interdictors that would seem kind of like beads if you were to visualize it (except of course beads can't overlap where the interdiction effect of two generators can). You have the interdictors spread so that they are just close enough to each other to maintain whatever your planners say is the minimum time needed to be able to build and place more interdictors. That is the narrowest band of coverage will be that thickness (since the interdictor will kick the ship back into normal space for sub-light travel anyway).

[kyli]

My point is that with a couple weeks notice you then have time to park another interdictor on the other side of that gap and suddenly the enemy is looking at a travel time a whole lot longer than a couple weeks, and without the cost of filling the entire volume to be interficted (again so long as the effect will still work when the center is hollow). And of course, during that couple weeks and then the extra time you can be hammering away at the enemy.

I'm imagining the surface of a sphere of three or four ly diameter, made up of interdictors that would seem kind of like beads if you were to visualize it (except of course beads can't overlap where the interdiction effect of two generators can). You have the interdictors spread so that they are just close enough to each other to maintain whatever your planners say is the minimum time needed to be able to build and place more interdictors. That is the narrowest band of coverage will be that thickness (since the interdictor will kick the ship back into normal space for sub-light travel anyway).

I understand what you are saying but if an empire with FTL technology were to invade, you won't have much time. FTL drives can operate inside the interdiction and the Hrathari can travel 1 light year in 40 minutes with they're FTL drives. Now I know the Hrathari aren't really a threat because they are so slow in hyperspace that the karinne's would see them coming from a long way off but if someone with real time hyperspace engines gets their hands on those FTL drives or builds a better one, the karinne's would only have 40 minutes warning for every light year that the enemy has to penetrate. And the karinne's have to protect themselves from both their friends and their enemies or at least beware that their current friends might become their enemies. 40 minutes isn't long to prepare if the consortium or syndicate were to get those FTL drives and attack with thousands of ships.

[MartinK]

My point is that with a couple weeks notice you then have time to park another interdictor on the other side of that gap and suddenly the enemy is looking at a travel time a whole lot longer than a couple weeks, and without the cost of filling the entire volume to be interficted (again so long as the effect will still work when the center is hollow). And of course, during that couple weeks and then the extra time you can be hammering away at the enemy.

So, you'd be willing to let them scan the hell out of your interdiction generator? And you would also expect the enemy to simply send ships from all directions in large numbers at once? Who told you that the enemy would be a stupid computer AI that will keep their fleet all together no matter what? And we don't need to start talking about the days and hours that your interdictor would need to build up an interdiction field all while under the no doubt very detailed sensor scans of the enemy. I'm sure they'd just love that.

Why would you assume it would be worth the number of interdictors you could possibly safe? If you already have to build 150+ for the third sphere, whats 12 more for the second one? Or what exactly was the number needed for that?

I'm imagining the surface of a sphere of three or four ly diameter, made up of interdictors that would seem kind of like beads if you were to visualize it (except of course beads can't overlap where the interdiction effect of two generators can). You have the interdictors spread so that they are just close enough to each other to maintain whatever your planners say is the minimum time needed to be able to build and place more interdictors. That is the narrowest band of coverage will be that thickness (since the interdictor will kick the ship back into normal space for sub-light travel anyway).

Who says it will kick them back down? We already know that some races have developed FTL/Non-Hyperspace and got some quite useful results if you only have to get through one lightyear. This time they did not have that technology. Can you be sure they won't next time? They send the request for it back home, the next wave of that enemy will certainly bring it with them. Or even worse, their enemy will have listened to their request and taken the same precautions. Let us all hope that they find some sort of defence against that FTL/Non-Hyperspace tech before it is needed.

[kyli]

Maybe I should have named this topic Interdictors instead.  As it is, we've gone beyond the Karis battle.  And there's one more thing I'd like to discuss about interdictors. Would it be possible to install a hyperspace engine on the interdictors similar to the engines the karinnes already use on hyperspace spy probes? The interdictor would be stationary in hyperspace and would continue to interdict the area.  The only thing capable of attacking the interdictor in hyperspace then would be hyperspace missles capable jumping inbound through the interdiction.  In other words, only the karinnes and kimdori.   That is, if the interdictor would still work when in hyperspace.  I can't see why it wouldn't though.

[SoronelHaetir]

So, you'd be willing to let them scan the hell out of your interdiction generator? And you would also expect the enemy to simply send ships from all directions in large numbers at once? Who told you that the enemy would be a stupid computer AI that will keep their fleet all together no matter what? And we don't need to start talking about the days and hours that your interdictor would need to build up an interdiction field all while under the no doubt very detailed sensor scans of the enemy. I'm

I was assuming that the entire area (or at least each interdictor) would be covered by sensor jammers as well, which doesn't seem like it would be a problem as those appear to be much less expensive than interdictors.

As for races with engines that can travel at superluminal speeds through an interdiction effect - whether it be by hyperspace jumping, via FTL engines that keep the ship in normal space that are somehow immune to the effect or by whatever other means I would say in that case the interdictor is simply not a useful device. and that too should be part of your calculus as to whether to build the interdiction network.

If your enemy can't travel at FTL speeds through an interdiction effect right now but you project that they are only weeks or months away from being able to do so then it would probably be a better investment to redirect your military budget to something else. The interdictor seems like it would only be a critical investment so long as you know (or at least strongly suspect) it's going to work.

I was not assuming that the enemy would split their fleet and attack every narrow spot, perhaps come at two or three such spots but not all of them, and even that seems unlikely. (Unless the enemy were to develop sensor jammers of their own, then I could see such splitting being useful - send a sensor jammer at every narrow spot and split the fleet a bunch so that the Karins really would have to defend everywhere). Under that scenario I am assuming the Karins would know they were being jammed but would not be able to see through that jamming.

[MartinK]

Maybe I should have named this topic Interdictors instead.  As it is, we've gone beyond the Karis battle.  And there's one more thing I'd like to discuss about interdictors. Would it be possible to install a hyperspace engine on the interdictors similar to the engines the karinnes already use on hyperspace spy probes? The interdictor would be stationary in hyperspace and would continue to interdict the area.  The only thing capable of attacking the interdictor in hyperspace then would be hyperspace missles capable jumping inbound through the interdiction.  In other words, only the karinnes and kimdori.   That is, if the interdictor would still work when in hyperspace.  I can't see why it wouldn't though.

Ah, the Karinne Hyperspace Engines are able to surf the distortion waves of an interdiction field by knowing the exact formula on which to base the variable speed changes necessary to stay in front of one and behind the next wave. In other words: You don't move, you get kicked out. And to shortstop the obvious idea, no, the interdictor can't be moved while active in speeds worth mentioning. It would be a bit ridiculous, an interdictor trying to surf on its own wave, right?

[MartinK]

I was assuming that the entire area (or at least each interdictor) would be covered by sensor jammers as well, which doesn't seem like it would be a problem as those appear to be much less expensive than interdictors.

It's an armsrace writ large. A sensor jammer is just another piece of technology that becomes a hurdle to overcome. Minimize the time the enemy gets to scan and filter it, maximize the distance from which he can do so.

As for races with engines that can travel at superluminal speeds through an interdiction effect - whether it be by hyperspace jumping, via FTL engines that keep the ship in normal space that are somehow immune to the effect or by whatever other means I would say in that case the interdictor is simply not a useful device. and that too should be part of your calculus as to whether to build the interdiction network.

If your enemy can't travel at FTL speeds through an interdiction effect right now but you project that they are only weeks or months away from being able to do so then it would probably be a better investment to redirect your military budget to something else. The interdictor seems like it would only be a critical investment so long as you know (or at least strongly suspect) it's going to work.

The fact is, we simply don't know. The enemy can have superluminal FTL engines. He can have something completely new. He could jump across the interdiction effect in a few minutes. Or take anything between that or a few years. Better to have it and not get any good return on your investment than to not have it and find that it would have been the single most effective protection. Besides, the interdictor is also one of the foundation stones that the Karinne are using to both protect other species from each other as well as to foist of their vision of a galactic trade gate network, which would make simply starting a fight against someone ruinous in the first few days. Similar tactic that several governments have used for more than a decade with their "Oh, no, terrorism, let us cut back your rights! - Oh, yes, please" campaign. Not that i find anything to criticize with that Karinne tactic at all.

I was not assuming that the enemy would split their fleet and attack every narrow spot, perhaps come at two or three such spots but not all of them, and even that seems unlikely. (Unless the enemy were to develop sensor jammers of their own, then I could see such splitting being useful - send a sensor jammer at every narrow spot and split the fleet a bunch so that the Karins really would have to defend everywhere). Under that scenario I am assuming the Karins would know they were being jammed but would not be able to see through that jamming.

The most simple sensor jammer should be build in on every ship. Blast all possible frequencies and hope for the best. Or just repair your broken ships enough to make them fly, no need for guns, crews and whatnot, as long as they fly straight and look like ships on the enemies sensors. But one has to assume that they will have some kind of sophisticated sensor jammer, killing off the enemies information gathering system is rather obvious. Still, if you have better jammers than the enemy, changes are you have better sensors as well. If you know better ways to block something, you are halfway to detect it again already.

But when i look at those ridiculous numbers of ships, i wonder if they would even need such tactics. Even the first, rather small wave, almost overcame the the good guys defence by numbers if not for that exploding moon. How effective would a simply straight run with constant course changes have been i wonder. Well... if they wouldn't have starved in the 3 years until their arrival that is.

[kyli]

Maybe I should have named this topic Interdictors instead. As it is, we've gone beyond the Karis battle. And there's one more thing I'd like to discuss about interdictors. Would it be possible to install a hyperspace engine on the interdictors similar to the engines the karinnes already use on hyperspace spy probes? The interdictor would be stationary in hyperspace and would continue to interdict the area. The only thing capable of attacking the interdictor in hyperspace then would be hyperspace missles capable jumping inbound through the interdiction. In other words, only the karinnes and kimdori. That is, if the interdictor would still work when in hyperspace. I can't see why it wouldn't though.

Ah, the Karinne Hyperspace Engines are able to surf the distortion waves of an interdiction field by knowing the exact formula on which to base the variable speed changes necessary to stay in front of one and behind the next wave. In other words: You don't move, you get kicked out. And to shortstop the obvious idea, no, the interdictor can't be moved while active in speeds worth mentioning. It would be a bit ridiculous, an interdictor trying to surf on its own wave, right?

Surfing the waveform is what you do when jumping outbound. That's what they did in the biginning before they could jump inbound. The upgraded karinne engines shouldn't have a problem holding position in the interdiction field.