Inception 12 [Spoilers]

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Wolfee
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Inception 12 [Spoilers]

Post by Wolfee »

So what do you all think Myleena is going to find buried in the math for the Hrathari translight drives? I'm wondering if Fel is going to pull a rabbit out of his hat and present us with time travel or something truly off the wall.
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Re: Inception 12 [Spoilers]

Post by physicalard »

I'm just expecting MUCH faster hyperspace travel. Intergalactic speed hyperdrives. At least a tenth the time maybe much shorter. I could be wrong though.
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Re: Inception 12 [Spoilers]

Post by Hugin »

My guess is that Myleena will come up with stable worm holes... I was trying to keep track of all of Jason's kids but I did not see any reference to Yana.. I seem to remember that she was pregnant with a son for Jason, Walter? Any idea on the timing for that one?
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Re: Inception 12 [Spoilers]

Post by MartinK »

physicalard wrote:I'm just expecting MUCH faster hyperspace travel. Intergalactic speed hyperdrives. At least a tenth the time maybe much shorter. I could be wrong though.
Nah, its already way too easy to get to other galaxies, just go to a ship and activate the jump drive, wait a few years and voila, you are there. Take a gate with you and you even have a way to instantly travel those distances after another wait of a few years for sync. Once, jumping was limited by the time you could stay in jump space or the necessary cold sleep.

The Kimdori even used a way to cheat and jump halfway across the distance in a matter of seconds, just with a bit more risk. So no, simply jumping faster would not give us all that much more advantages. I am more disturbed that you can fly into any interdicted space and cross the 1 lightyear distance in just 40 minutes. If one race invents a way to do so, another one can, too. And you won't be able to move thousands of ships from one side of the confederation to the other in just 40 minutes if it becomes necessary. So, a way to block this type of travel would be a lot more important. Interdiction is one of the cornerstones of the defense of the Confederation.

Right now, only the most important systems are interdicted - which makes all that work for the Karinne merchant fleet in the first place. I wonder, we have heared often enough that there a ships being build in great numbers. It's been a time since anyone mentioned building new interdictors, placing them or any kind of plan for them when the next wave of the enemy arrives.
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Re: Inception 12 [Spoilers]

Post by betatester »

I too wonder about interdictors. I remember reading in earlier books that they did not have enough interdictors to even completely interdict both Skaa empires or the Alliance and now that the confederation has expanded to such a large size; that they have 4-5 sectors worth of empires and their systems, would they have enough interdictors?. Also remember that they have completely interdict the Imxi empire and the systems that confederation would claim in the P quadrant and maybe even perhaps those four peaceful empires that Jason mentioned at the end of Succession when they chopped Imxi empire up; if they don't want the Consortium to just roll right in with their colonizing fleet and set themselves up. They would have to interdict those systems to deny the consortium the chance to just take them.

Also I remember that interdictors require Terynium which can only be mined in hyperspace and needs months to refine it and that both Karinne hyperspace engines and interdictors use Terynium. Given that Karinnes are building ships like crazy and that every ship constructed with hyperspace engines requires Terynium; do they have enough Terynium?


I think Myleena would find a way to combine Karinne Translation engines and Hrathari Translight drives, which could enable the new Karinne engines to use less power, have more powerful acceleration & faster sub-light speed and they would be FTL engines not just sub-light engines. that would perhaps enable Karinne ships to fight in FTL which would reduce the chance that they would get damaged as the opposing side would also need to defend or attack in FTL speeds if they want to have a chance to hit anything. (just like Star Trek)
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Re: Inception 12 [Spoilers]

Post by expedient »

A few of my musings and ideas:

Is Rook the basis of Star Wars type droids, or potential full autonomous living house members?

Are Kimdori vulnerable to hyperspace jumps enough to possibly expose them when undercover?

Didn't Jason have a complete set of naval battle tactics downloaded into his head by the Kimdori, so why does he think he is not up to commanding the battle in chapter 11? (Not that I think he should have.)

Giving new CBIMs personalities based on current house members might offer an advantage in their ability to contribute more original ideas, such as using Myleena for an engineering CBIM and Jason for a defence CBIM.

Are different generations going to "bond" with each new CBIM in order to provide more telekinetic defenders when Karis is under attack?

I'm guessing that Myleena will realise that not only will the new FTL tech allow much greater power efficiency and speed in hyperspace but may even allow ships to manoeuvre, ie. slow down, speed up and alter course in hyperspace. I think the key is the artificial space-time bubble that they generate around their vessels – if they can move a large artificial object into hyperspace and keep it there, then there are many strategic advantages to doing so. Ships and missiles that can attack other ships in hyperspace or from within to strike enemies outside. Secure hyperspace stations which operate where enemies cannot attack them.

The Karinnes and Kimdori already have a huge advantage with undetectable hyperspace probes if they can move that forward to the next stage of operating ships and stations from within hyperspace, destroying ships as they are deploying, especially those flying under automated systems from Andromeda then… :wink:
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Re: Inception 12 [Spoilers]

Post by MartinK »

expedient wrote:Is Rook the basis of Star Wars type droids, or potential full autonomous living house members?
Wheres the difference? Weren't R2D2 or C3PO both full autonomous living house members? Well, unless under capture and restraint by those restraining bolts?
Didn't Jason have a complete set of naval battle tactics downloaded into his head by the Kimdori, so why does he think he is not up to commanding the battle in chapter 11? (Not that I think he should have.)
There is a difference between having read all kinds of naval battle history books and corresponding analysis and having training for and fought in countless battle actions yourself. You have likely read countless fantasy novels as well as the Firestaff, same as me. Neither of us can now do magic. Wouldn't that be great? ;-)
Giving new CBIMs personalities based on current house members might offer an advantage in their ability to contribute more original ideas, such as using Myleena for an engineering CBIM and Jason for a defence CBIM.
Uuuurg, despite what some parents try to do to their children i really hope that idea never gets anywhere. Any new sentient being should always have the chance to develop its own personality. You can see what disastrous results you get when you try to force a child to be just like his father/her mother or even how his father/her mother would have wished to live. It never truly works out.
Are different generations going to "bond" with each new CBIM in order to provide more telekinetic defenders when Karis is under attack?
Of course. A single generation can hardly go to more than a single CBIM and do that bonding thing to use the combined power to fight. I seem to remember that all generations can "bond" with all CBIMs, but Jason had the best results with Cybi. Here's hoping that its not Jason again with the best results upon bonding with Cyra.

On a side note: In the last fight, the power used was directly derived from the power that the generators offered. Wouldn't that mean that only one CBIM on Karis would be useful in a fight since another one can hardly get the generators cooled any faster anyway?

I'll save my breath on the speculations for Mylenna's FTL research since Fel will surprise us with a surprising and unexpected idea that fits perfectly into the storyline anyway. We are at chapter 12 right now for the current book. The last books all had 10 or less chapters so i'll spend my time worrying that the results of that research will only be known to us after reading the first chapters of the next book - after Fel has written lots of chapters in some other universes of his first. *worry*
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Re: Inception 12 [Spoilers]

Post by Griffinmane »

expedient wrote:Are Kimdori vulnerable to hyperspace jumps enough to possibly expose them when undercover?
I didn't even think of this possibility. It depends on if they see the ghosts to begin with. I think they would because even though the are a viral based life form the ghosts are caused by a 3D mind seeing 4D or higher space and rationizing it as seeing things that aren't there.
MartinK wrote:
On a side note: In the last fight, the power used was directly derived from the power that the generators offered. Wouldn't that mean that only one CBIM on Karis would be useful in a fight since another one can hardly get the generators cooled any faster anyway?
I think this is the main point and not a side note ;) The power generation is limiting factor and I believe it limits the range. Although now with broadcast power they may place emitters for the telepathic scream in orbit and power it by the broadcast power system. It won't extend it much (Earth's atmosphere is roughly 250 miles or so) unless the atmosphere actually diffuses the effect. Many things are affected by the Earths atmosphere: any telescopic vision system, signals including GPS are affected by atmospheric distortion. So it is possible that the emitter may have better range once it is in space and doesn't have the atmosphere interfering. And the reason they have it ground based was it keep it close to the generators.

One thing that makes me curious is why they send the largest ship through a gate first. I've read other series with a single point of entry like this (Honor Harrington's worm hole junctions, and the Stars at War series with the Warp points) They usually had smaller and faster scouts go through first to clear the way and then send larger and larger ships in later.

The only way I can imagine this is different is because of the interdictors prevent an enemy force from being on the other side of the stargate and the stargates can send status and tell the way is clear before sending the largest element first.

It does provide a battelfield commander with a first hand look to change tactics, but leaves them in a possible very vulnerable position. And I would think you would want some elements in the fleet go first so that commander has some to command when the arrive on scene.

In this environment where you know the way is clear it makes sense to send in heavies first to allow you to bring the largest amount of tonnage to the battle first, but I also see smaller ships being faster and simpler and bringing thier systems up and getting out of the way of the heavier tonage coming in behind.
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Re: Inception 12 [Spoilers]

Post by expedient »

MartinK wrote:
expedient wrote:Is Rook the basis of Star Wars type droids, or potential full autonomous living house members?
Wheres the difference? Weren't R2D2 or C3PO both full autonomous living house members? Well, unless under capture and restraint by those restraining bolts?
Yes there is a difference and it is somewhat described in the chapter in relation to how Cyra will understand the why of things. Droids in Star Wars, as far as I can tell, never showed true understanding. They followed orders, provided useful information and helped solve problems in regards to the mission. Their owners showed affection towards some droids but despite R2-D2's (in particular) ability to improvise they showed no true sentience. I think Rook might be. In a different way than the CBIMs.
MartinK wrote:
Didn't Jason have a complete set of naval battle tactics downloaded into his head by the Kimdori, so why does he think he is not up to commanding the battle in chapter 11? (Not that I think he should have.)
There is a difference between having read all kinds of naval battle history books and corresponding analysis and having training for and fought in countless battle actions yourself. You have likely read countless fantasy novels as well as the Firestaff, same as me. Neither of us can now do magic. Wouldn't that be great? ;-)
And yet Jason can speak and understand languages after a download plus he has already demonstrated his ability to direct naval battles using this knowledge. [I have studied a number of languages and yet despite having a partial knowledge of them I cannot communicate flawlessly well in them without long practice.]
MartinK wrote:
Giving new CBIMs personalities based on current house members might offer an advantage in their ability to contribute more original ideas, such as using Myleena for an engineering CBIM and Jason for a defence CBIM.
Uuuurg, despite what some parents try to do to their children i really hope that idea never gets anywhere. Any new sentient being should always have the chance to develop its own personality. You can see what disastrous results you get when you try to force a child to be just like his father/her mother or even how his father/her mother would have wished to live. It never truly works out.
You are misinterpreting what I'm trying to say here. The current CBIMs have a base personality based on Sora Karinne. That doesn't make them Sora Karinne but it might mean that their initial thought processes and motivations follow the Old Karinne ideals. If later CBIMs could have some of the base ethics and thought patterns of the Phoenix Karinnes not only might that better help the current house but it might allow greater levels of individuality later on. If only because all of the CBIMs will not have started with the same identical template.

I am not suggesting that they upload Jason et al into CBIMs and have virtual copies of themselves running around. That wouldn't work as the process described for the CBIMs gaining sentience would diverge those personalities quickly. I'm saying use those differences in the base code to take advantage of those divergences to offer a greater range of personalities in the CBIMs. Old Karinnes, Phoenix Karinnes, males as well as females.
MartinK wrote:
Are different generations going to "bond" with each new CBIM in order to provide more telekinetic defenders when Karis is under attack?
Of course. A single generation can hardly go to more than a single CBIM and do that bonding thing to use the combined power to fight. I seem to remember that all generations can "bond" with all CBIMs, but Jason had the best results with Cybi. Here's hoping that its not Jason again with the best results upon bonding with Cyra.

On a side note: In the last fight, the power used was directly derived from the power that the generators offered. Wouldn't that mean that only one CBIM on Karis would be useful in a fight since another one can hardly get the generators cooled any faster anyway?
My "bonding" thinking is more a question of which generations are going to partner up with those CBIMs. They are already described building more power plants for those complexes and the cities but even if the others don't have as much power as the original they would offer a substantial increase in defensive capabilities.
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Re: Inception 12 [Spoilers]

Post by expedient »

Griffinmane wrote:
expedient wrote:Are Kimdori vulnerable to hyperspace jumps enough to possibly expose them when undercover?
I didn't even think of this possibility. It depends on if they see the ghosts to begin with. I think they would because even though the are a viral based life form the ghosts are caused by a 3D mind seeing 4D or higher space and rationizing it as seeing things that aren't there.
Early on Zaa is described as using her higher tolerance for hyperspace travel to arrive at Karis quicker than is normal. Certainly quicker than a fleet with individuals having variable tolerances.
Insurrection Chapter 5, Fel wrote: “Why didn’t you help us sooner?” he blurted out.

“I got the fleet there as quickly as I could, cousin,” she told him calmly.  “When the second fleet arrived, Handmaiden Miaari called me.  But I was unavailable when she called, and it took her nearly five minutes to get in touch with me.  She explained the situation, and I mobilized our fleet to reinforce you, which, as you know, is not an instantaneous matter.  I took them about ten minutes to organize and jump, and then they had to travel there.  It takes nearly sixteen minutes of continuous hyperspace travel for them to reach Karis from Kimdori.  It is a long way there from here, cousin.”

Sixteen minutes?” he gasped in surprise.

She nodded.  “It is usually done in stages, because of the dangers of that much hyperspace exposure to the crew, so in actuality it takes nearly thirty minutes to get there.  The fleet only made one brief stop to relieve the crews from hypserspace exposure, so they arrived in twenty-two minutes.  I ordered our fleet to assist as soon as I was warned of your predicament.”

“I didn’t know it takes that long.  You always just seem to get here so fast,” he said in wonder.

“I am quite resistant to hyperspace exposure,” she smiled.  “I, and many individual Kimdori, can tolerate such a long journey safely.”

“Well, I’m sorry then, Denmother,” he said contritely.  “I didn’t mean to accuse you.”
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Re: Inception 12 [Spoilers]

Post by The Thing »

MartinK wrote:Take a gate with you and you even have a way to instantly travel those distances after another wait of a few years for sync.
If I recollect right, its not only time dependant but even energy dependant. It only takes time to sync two gates far apart but also, the father apart the gates are, the more power is needed to maintain the link. So, either its not feasible or more research needs to be done on how to address this drawback.
MartinK wrote:So, a way to block this type of travel would be a lot more important. Interdiction is one of the cornerstones of the defense of the Confederation.
Agreed. More research needs to be put into how to properly and with certainty destabilize a worm hole (this research to stay with Karinnes until a way to over come this is found out by them for their own safety). If that can be achieved then it will be easier to understand worm holes and learn to stabilize them and use them for quick large distance travels, like between galaxies. and that can be started by getting the feedback about their travel from the Kimdori who are going to Andromeda. So we might end up with

FTL - Intra galaxy with time consumption
Hyperspace - Intra galaxy with minimal time consumption
Wormholes - Inter galaxy with minimal time consumption

betatester wrote:Also I remember that interdictors require Terynium which can only be mined in hyperspace and needs months to refine it and that both Karinne hyperspace engines and interdictors use Terynium. Given that Karinnes are building ships like crazy and that every ship constructed with hyperspace engines requires Terynium; do they have enough Terynium?
Along with their on going mining of the material, if I remember right the Consortium had mined loads and loads of this material to build that giant ball like thing they were building. As I recollect it was a ball bigger than the moon Kosigi. So I would guess they are also recycling that too. :D But it would be so much more great if they can make their replicators make this material or build some replicator which works in hyperspace and use it in hyperspace to replicate this material (since people can stay in hypersace for a long time now).
betatester wrote:That would perhaps enable Karinne ships to fight in FTL which would reduce the chance that they would get damaged as the opposing side would also need to defend or attack in FTL speeds if they want to have a chance to hit anything. (just like Star Trek)
Hmmmm, interesting concept, I would love to see it.The thing that bothers me is, all your weaponry are particle based which travel at sub light or close to light and you are moving FTL. So it will lead to a whole lot of new weird physics which needs to be understood first and then implemented in the story. Anyway, that's FEL's headache, not mind. :P
expedient wrote:Are different generations going to "bond" with each new CBIM in order to provide more telekinetic defenders when Karis is under attack?
I was thinking about the same thing in a bit of different way. Skipping the other generations, I was thinking of only Jason's kids. Now since a lot of his kids are being taught how to run the Karinne house, couldn't his kids take up different sections of responsibility. For example, Zach is a very strong TK, and since for joining a CBIM and using the boosted TK will need someone with that power, why not him ? He might be weak telepathically, but he's good to team up with the defence CBIM. Similarly this new kid Jason has with Myleena can team up with some R&D CBIM, boost up her thinking capability and come up with solutions quicker. And so on....
MartinK wrote:Wheres the difference? Weren't R2D2 or C3PO both full autonomous living house members? Well, unless under capture and restraint by those restraining bolts?
In my opinion they are a whole lot different. R2D2/C3PO are more like the current world computers+technology. Yes, the current world computers can do amazing things which will be awe inspiring. Considering the case of Google now/Siri they can even interact with human world, even when a statement with the same meaning is stated in different ways, they understand and interact with you. BUT, the way they interact must be understood. They do it based on they referencing it to their database of it being done by some human and then using it in their interaction. Its NEVER self generated. Its feedback to any human interaction is based on a set of rules and/or a copy of how another human had reacted in the same scenario. Its always the same case, any number of times you repeat the scenario.
Where as in the case of Rook, its more of a sentience where the being has its own thought process. ONLY with a biogenic chip can you introduce the irrationality of a living being into an rational computer. Rook is just another being similar to Cybi, except he doesnt have the awesome processing capability of Cybi and hence will always end up being a little less smarter than her. But provide him the hardware for it and he is sure of matching any other CBIM in sentience.


I have to agree with some of the comments on here. In my opinion is Myli will find something new in the engine design which can be implemented ONLY in the Karinne design. With that design with the same engine they can use it for FTL speeds in normal space and more manoeuvrability and control in the hyperspace region.
Disclaimer: I have no F'in idea if the technical mumbo jumbo I spew on here is even logically right or possible. Read at your own caution.
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Re: Inception 12 [Spoilers]

Post by Catawk »

Griffinmane wrote:
One thing that makes me curious is why they send the largest ship through a gate first. I've read other series with a single point of entry like this (Honor Harrington's worm hole junctions, and the Stars at War series with the Warp points) They usually had smaller and faster scouts go through first to clear the way and then send larger and larger ships in later.

The only way I can imagine this is different is because of the interdictors prevent an enemy force from being on the other side of the stargate and the stargates can send status and tell the way is clear before sending the largest element first.

It does provide a battelfield commander with a first hand look to change tactics, but leaves them in a possible very vulnerable position. And I would think you would want some elements in the fleet go first so that commander has some to command when the arrive on scene.

In this environment where you know the way is clear it makes sense to send in heavies first to allow you to bring the largest amount of tonnage to the battle first, but I also see smaller ships being faster and simpler and bringing thier systems up and getting out of the way of the heavier tonage coming in behind.
The reason the large ships go first is because when ships come out of the Stargate the larger the ship the higher the velocity. So if a smaller ship goes first and don't get out of way fast enough they could be hit by the larger ones. Remember that ship have to turn off their plasma when going through the Stargate.

Doesn't the 40 minutes FTL seem faster then some hyperspace drives. I mean 2 hours to go 3 light years where it seems like some peoples hyper drive delay is a day to go the same distance.
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Re: Inception 12 [Spoilers]

Post by Griffinmane »

Catawk wrote: The reason the large ships go first is because when ships come out of the Stargate the larger the ship the higher the velocity. So if a smaller ship goes first and don't get out of way fast enough they could be hit by the larger ones. Remember that ship have to turn off their plasma when going through the Stargate.
Thanks I must have missed that the larger ships have more velocity coming out of the gate. Makes more sense now.

I knew they went through powered down and was thinking a smaller ship type would be able to bring thier systems up faster and hence get out of the way.
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Re: Inception 12 [Spoilers]

Post by miraborn »

Griffinmane wrote:
Catawk wrote: The reason the large ships go first is because when ships come out of the Stargate the larger the ship the higher the velocity. So if a smaller ship goes first and don't get out of way fast enough they could be hit by the larger ones. Remember that ship have to turn off their plasma when going through the Stargate.
Thanks I must have missed that the larger ships have more velocity coming out of the gate. Makes more sense now.

I knew they went through powered down and was thinking a smaller ship type would be able to bring thier systems up faster and hence get out of the way.
One more point regarding this - When using stargates, one can assume knowledge of what is on the other end. You, the fleet commander, theoretically have control of both gates, thus some modicum of control of the exit point. If the fleet was Jumping, that would be a different situation - the destination could be a complete unknown, thus all ships sync jump engines so they stay in formation throughout the journey and arrive all at the same moment. With the stargates, you are traveling from one known area to another known area. Even if there are hostiles at the destination, the gate operators at both ends should have that information and be able to feed that to the fleet commander for tactical analysis.
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Re: Inception 12 [Spoilers]

Post by SYED »

I think the translight is very cool, but why is the other alternative FTL method being ignored, the one where mass was negated and it caused the object to be immune to most things due to being out of phase. THose relays created an energy field, which degrades at a rate that can be specified before hand. I always thought this if hyper space could be made into a catapult, then perhaps this form ftl could be fitted to a ship like an engine. At the very least if minituized, it would allow missiles to be harder to intercept and eliminate as missile launches will be ftl capable. At the very least it shoul be investigated for its protective properties. For example, can it protect against radiation or the energies from hyperspace?

Terra is an independant system, with nominal ties to the faey imperium. THe thing is if mars and venus become property of faey nobles houses wont that change the status quo. I am all for terraforming planets, but this seems like it could become a big political issue. It would be better if the planet belong to house karrine, or even better belong to terra it self. THe confederation would love more habitable systems in terra, and more food available, but the thing is this will turn in to a political issue. it is a matter of appearances.

One of the races was said to be an expert at shields, both hard and soft shields, so I was wondering if they could help advance the terraforming of planets. THe core is too filled with radiation to be properly habitable, but what if better shields are create to negate that radiation. Then using plants and ecosystems that feed on radiation, clean a planet of it, to allow those less immune to it able to colonise it. Sort of like how that radioactive moon was covered in a shield to keep the planet near it protected from the radiation. It is likely that the planet will never be as safe as any other habitable planet, but it should become an easier option to colonize it.
If the academy can make it cheaper or easier to colonize/terraform planets, then those expanding members of the confederation would focus on developing places with in their borders.

We know the academy does alot of big projects, so why not see if they can improve terraforming. COuld they design alternative habitats, so floating cities, space habitats. If there are ships the size of small moons, why not habitats that size. They could design domed, underground,or mega cities even arcologies.

Does the karrine academy have a cooking school? Imagine learning to combine ingrediants and recipes from multiple planets. That has to deserve its own cooking show. We know food is a big deal, and the food industry is huge, it would be a way to encourage differnt races to try new foods.

How big are the incoming consortium and syndicate fleets and what is the timetable for their arrival? I know the syndicate fleet is first, but that is all i remember. We know that jason is capable of creating an ambush that can take out a thousand of ships, I wonder will they be aiming for pure destruction, or will they want to capture some ships so study the syndicate tech base, to add to their own, or find ways to disable the enemies ships in the future.

I am wondering, just how fast is indictor production, will they be able to keep up. Unless they eliminate the alien fleets as they arrives, they may face alien fleets active in our galaxcy. I got the impression that their is only a slim corridor of entry to the galxcy, but, if they know there is trouble, they could always find alternative or suprising ways to ensure they get in. WHile they have stolen karrine tech and numbers backing them, they can do alot of damage. We know there are other hyperspave energies, i wonder how many matertials can be extracted from it. If you combined a hyperengine with a replicator, could you access those matrials?

Once the confederation has the numbers, I see them sending a hug fleet, with a stargate to the enemy galaxy. Hopeully in a way that suprises the enemy. they stop every so often, and use the gate to link back home. That way the fleet can keep the gate safe, and hold territory. Say the kimdori find a radiation deadly system, set a part of it to be safe, then invite the gate to be set up. While the fleet will be useful, i see DDD toys being sent to multiple systems, cause untold havoc, using the manufactory ability of the whole confederation, imagine the numbers. They could really mess with logistics in that galaxcy. The thing is, the forces sent against them have to act remotly or be telepathic, as they are highly telepathic as well, so keep it a level playing field.
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