Inception, Chapter 1 [Spoilers]

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SYED
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Inception, Chapter 1 [Spoilers]

Post by SYED »

I forget how many enemy ships are stuck in the nebula. For the first time, they can do an epic stomp on the bad guys, i think. I know one energy being got dealt with on karis, another should have been taken out in the nebula, but have the other two been confirmed kills or are they on the run. they have other allies and assets out there, to manipulate the system for when their people come.
I bet we are all fascinated by the newest tech seen. Imagine, biogenic crystal, combined with an internal cyberjack/gestalt device. Biogenic crystals can recieve telepathic info, its just only generations are able to understand them. Currently, generations can commune with tech, kimdori and other generations. I wonder if they will be able to commune with those outfitted with such a crystal. We have no idea what it could do, but we are all guessing it will be big. Especially with jason upgraded brain cells.
More babies yay, i wonder what children from an altered Jason can do.
who wants to lay down bets that one day temika will break down and embrace faey life style?
When will earth get to expand? I am thinking that for a long term project they will attempt to terraform mars, or another celestial body in system. I wonder if they will attempt to encourage colonization of planets, by more that one race. like one that prefers snow, the other deserts, one mountain and the other seas.
The kimdori have been exploring for a long time, i wonder what their libraries are like. to fight the invaders they need every advantage around, so would Zaa give jason complete access to the tech bases of more advanced races. we have seen how he has used the karrine database for great success, not with consortium tech on the open market, they need a way to ensure karrine dominance, so they can keep the peace.
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Re: Inception, Chapter 1 [Spoilers]

Post by khms »

I'm a bit irritated by the orbital mechanics there:
The two planets orbited one another around a fixed imaginary point between them rather than one orbiting the other, which was what made the phenomenon so exceedingly rare. Systems like that became unstable very quickly in the measuring of time in astronomy, where the instability would cause the planets to either fly out of their orbits or crash into one another. In fact, a thousand years ago, the astrocartography mission that had surveyed the system had predicted that the system would become unstable and cause the smaller planet to become captured into an orbit around the larger planet in 4.6 million years. The gravitational pull of the larger planet was slowing the smaller planet down in its orbit, and when it reached a critical point, the orbit of the two planets around their imaginary fixed point would become unstable, the larger planet would become fixed within its orbit, and the smaller planet would be captured by the larger planet and become a very large moon.
Some small problems here:
  • There is no fundamental difference between double-planet orbits and planet-moon orbits. The only difference is in the size (mass) of the bodies involved. The bodies always "orbit one another around a fixed imaginary point between" their centers, except if one is much larger than the other, that point is so close to the center of the larger one that it is below it's surface. For example, this is true for the Terra/Luna system (even though some people have called that one a double planet - relative to Terra, Luna seems to be the largest moon in the system). For that matter, if you look at it from a distance, you'd notice that Luna doesn't seem to orbit Terra; both orbit the sun on a somewhat wobbly orbit, where they change who's closer to the sun every two weeks. (Luna's wobbles are larger than Terra's, of course.)
  • I'm pretty certain stability depends on these things:
    • If three bodies are approximately equidistant, it's much less stable than if two are much closer to each other. (Except if they are exactly equidistant, the system is stable. That's the orbit the Trojans are in, for example.)
    • It's bad for stability if two bodies are so close that their diameter is not much smaller than their distance. (In fact, that's closely related to the previous one.)
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Re: Inception, Chapter 1 [Spoilers]

Post by GBLW »

khms wrote:I'm a bit irritated by the orbital mechanics there:
The two planets orbited one another around a fixed imaginary point between them rather than one orbiting the other, which was what made the phenomenon so exceedingly rare. Systems like that became unstable very quickly in the measuring of time in astronomy, where the instability would cause the planets to either fly out of their orbits or crash into one another. In fact, a thousand years ago, the astrocartography mission that had surveyed the system had predicted that the system would become unstable and cause the smaller planet to become captured into an orbit around the larger planet in 4.6 million years. The gravitational pull of the larger planet was slowing the smaller planet down in its orbit, and when it reached a critical point, the orbit of the two planets around their imaginary fixed point would become unstable, the larger planet would become fixed within its orbit, and the smaller planet would be captured by the larger planet and become a very large moon.
Some small problems here:
  • There is no fundamental difference between double-planet orbits and planet-moon orbits. The only difference is in the size (mass) of the bodies involved. The bodies always "orbit one another around a fixed imaginary point between" their centers, except if one is much larger than the other, that point is so close to the center of the larger one that it is below it's surface. For example, this is true for the Terra/Luna system (even though some people have called that one a double planet - relative to Terra, Luna seems to be the largest moon in the system). For that matter, if you look at it from a distance, you'd notice that Luna doesn't seem to orbit Terra; both orbit the sun on a somewhat wobbly orbit, where they change who's closer to the sun every two weeks. (Luna's wobbles are larger than Terra's, of course.)
  • I'm pretty certain stability depends on these things:
    • If three bodies are approximately equidistant, it's much less stable than if two are much closer to each other. (Except if they are exactly equidistant, the system is stable. That's the orbit the Trojans are in, for example.)
    • It's bad for stability if two bodies are so close that their diameter is not much smaller than their distance. (In fact, that's closely related to the previous one.)
Theoretically he is correct, however, both of you seem to have forgotten the tidal effects of a multiple (two) body system [and yes, even without oceans, planetary bodies have tidal effects.] Over a relatively short geological period, tidal effects between two bodies will cause both of their rotational periods to slow, which in turn causes them to gradually separate, not grow closer to each other. (If you don't believe me, just tie a weight to a string and swing it around overhead. Once it is rotating well, gradually allow the string to slip through your fingers! The longer rotational distance will cause the period of rotation to slow and eventually you will be unable to cause the weight to swing.)

In the real world, our year is gradually becoming longer because of that same effect.

kp
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Re: Inception, Chapter 1 [Spoilers]

Post by khms »

GBLW wrote:Theoretically he is correct,
He who?
GBLW wrote:however, both of you seem to have forgotten the tidal effects of a multiple (two) body system
Actually, that's a close relative to
khms wrote:if two bodies are so close that their diameter is not much smaller than their distance
- or maybe I should say the effect is even larger than I made it sound there, because what's bad about that situation are the tidal effects. You get the instability because the bodies don't behave like points.
GBLW wrote: [and yes, even without oceans, planetary bodies have tidal effects.] Over a relatively short geological period, tidal effects between two bodies will cause both of their rotational periods to slow, which in turn causes them to gradually separate, not grow closer to each other.
This is correct.
GBLW wrote: (If you don't believe me, just tie a weight to a string and swing it around overhead. Once it is rotating well, gradually allow the string to slip through your fingers! The longer rotational distance will cause the period of rotation to slow and eventually you will be unable to cause the weight to swing.)
Conservation of angular momentum. That's why when dancers want to do a pirouette (and turn very fast), they pull in their arms.
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Re: Inception, Chapter 1 [Spoilers]

Post by GBLW »

A: In the sentence "Theoretically he is correct' I was meaning Fel, not khms and the sentence should have continued, with; "Theoretically he is correct in part, but not in full."

B: Tidal effects are NOT the same as 'if two bodies are so close that their diameter is not much smaller than their distance'!!! For instance, using the present relative velocities of the Moon and the Earth as an example - if they passed each other that closely even now - at a much reduced speed than there would have been many millions of years ago - you would have a 'slingshot effect' for the Moon which would fling it far and fast, well out of orbital range. As well as that you'd have a major disruption of the mantle of the Earth because of the tidal effects. At a minimum it would cause major disruption - earthquakes, tsunamis, volcanic eruptions, etc.

BTW- A book was written using the effect of two planetary bodies passing that closely to each other as a basic premise. It was titled "Four from Planet 5" written by Murray Leinster in the 1950s. (Supposedly Planet 5 was shattered and became the asteroid belt, but the residents were able to build a time/space machine and a few of them managed to move forward in time and space to land near the south pole of Earth.)
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Re: Inception, Chapter 1 [Spoilers]

Post by khms »

GBLW wrote:A: In the sentence "Theoretically he is correct' I was meaning Fel, not khms and the sentence should have continued, with; "Theoretically he is correct in part, but not in full."
Raises eybrow like Spock
GBLW wrote:B: Tidal effects are NOT the same as 'if two bodies are so close that their diameter is not much smaller than their distance'!!!
... and I didn't actually claim that, of course. Rather, that both are cases of the bodies not behaving like points.
GBLW wrote:For instance, using the present relative velocities of the Moon and the Earth as an example - if they passed each other that closely even now - at a much reduced speed than there would have been many millions of years ago - you would have a 'slingshot effect' for the Moon which would fling it far and fast, well out of orbital range.
When you get a slingshot effect in what is pretty much a two-body problem, then you didn't start from an orbit - the relative speed was already too fast for an orbit. You never get a slingshot from an orbit without a third body close by. Conservation of angular momentum and energy pretty much make that impossible. With three or more bodies involved, now ...

What you do get, in the extreme case, is a body destroyed by the tidal effects.

And in less extreme cases, you get some exchange between the three angular momentums involved, usually leading to slower rotation of the bodies and a slower, larger orbit.
GBLW wrote:As well as that you'd have a major disruption of the mantle of the Earth because of the tidal effects. At a minimum it would cause major disruption - earthquakes, tsunamis, volcanic eruptions, etc.
That much is true.
GBLW wrote:BTW- A book was written using the effect of two planetary bodies passing that closely to each other as a basic premise. It was titled "Four from Planet 5" written by Murray Leinster in the 1950s. (Supposedly Planet 5 was shattered and became the asteroid belt, but the residents were able to build a time/space machine and a few of them managed to move forward in time and space to land near the south pole of Earth.)
I believe there are quite a number of stories that have the asteroid belt the remains of a destroyed planet. Of course, today we know that the opposite is true: it's part of the pre-planet system that never condensed into planets, surviving only because it was in the right neighborhood. (See also: Kuiper belt, Oort cloud.)
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Re: Inception, Chapter 1 [Spoilers]

Post by GBLW »

khms wrote:
GBLW wrote:For instance, using the present relative velocities of the Moon and the Earth as an example - if they passed each other that closely even now - at a much reduced speed than there would have been many millions of years ago - you would have a 'slingshot effect' for the Moon which would fling it far and fast, well out of orbital range.
When you get a slingshot effect in what is pretty much a two-body problem, then you didn't start from an orbit - the relative speed was already too fast for an orbit. You never get a slingshot from an orbit without a third body close by. Conservation of angular momentum and energy pretty much make that impossible. With three or more bodies involved, now
I believe there are quite a number of stories that have the asteroid belt the remains of a destroyed planet. Of course, today we know that the opposite is true: it's part of the pre-planet system that never condensed into planets, surviving only because it was in the right neighborhood. (See also: Kuiper belt, Oort cloud.)
LOL - would you care to read my sentence again, especially the part that reads "if they passed each other that closely even now." In other words I was not assuming an established orbit for the Moon, but was postulating it as an invasive body that wandered into Earth's orbit. (Sorry if you read it as anything else, but if the two bodies existed in that small orbit at any time, gravitational influences would tear them both apart, so I had to use an invasive body scenario to illustrate my point.)

I was also using it as a means of introducing Leinster's book to the discussion. His method of discussing the situation is 'almost' theoretically possible, but his story led me to learn about Jupiter's gravitational influence on the primordial (or pre-planetary) formation of the asteroids and the establishment of the Kuiper belt and the Oort cloud. In fact Leinster's book is probably one of the reasons I have done much study of the Solar system and the Universe at large. Since then, well let's face it, I've had over 60 years to learn a 'little' bit about celestial mechanics so I've seen various astronomical theories and events come and go. (Right now I'm planning to get out of bed early on the morning of December 3rd and hoping for a clear day so I can see if Comet Ison survives a trip through the Sun's corona.)

Late Edit:
Dang it - there I was up at 5:30 AM for the last three days because the sky was clear - dang cold though - couldn't see a darn thing and no surprise, Guess I shoulda check the internet first huh?
http://news.discovery.com/space/astrono ... 131202.htm
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Re: Inception, Chapter 1 [Spoilers]

Post by dellstart »

What affect does the Academy still have, on the newly freed Earth? Is it not just an interdependent University? SO why would the UN send reports to Jason? Jason isn't sending reports or reporting to Draconis, whilst its true he's their TRUE ally ,nevertheless, they owe him nothing now but their gratitude?
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Re: Inception, Chapter 1 [Spoilers]

Post by lapland »

The academy is still ran by the Kerrines. Jason is the only ruler with a clear claim to Terra and yet has granted them autonomy. Jason uses Kerrine technology to ensure safety of the independent planet. No one will risk attacking Terra without rousing the anger of the Kerrines. Why wouldn't th UN send him regular reports? They are his protectorate.
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Re: Inception, Chapter 1 [Spoilers]

Post by SYED »

SO far all the nano tech comments have been involving telepathy, communion and gestalt implications. That are other purposes theorised, say increased strength, speed, reflexes, immune system, able to survive different atmosphere, consume a more varied diet safely, improved healing etc.
Replicators can only produce single material items, i wonder if the introducing nanites would increase its capabilities.
There have been talk about creating repair nanor tech for ships, and medical ones, but it would be cool to see more.
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Re: Inception, Chapter 1 [Spoilers]

Post by Blyker »

Bit of inconsistency here

Secession chapter 10:
Twins weren’t all that uncommon in Faey biology, in fact they were about 27% of all births, with identical twins representing nearly 11% of all births, leaving 16% of twin births fraternal.

Imception chapter 1:
Identical twins weren’t as uncommon among Faey as they were among Terrans, some 10% of all births, due to a quirk in Faey biology that caused the initial cell division in a female fertilized egg to completely separate, forming identical twins. Male eggs, on the other hand, were much less apt to completely separate, which caused a large disparity between female twins and male twins. The only thing rarer was fraternal twins, because Faey women virtually never released two eggs during a cycle.
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