Tribulation(spoilers ) chap 2

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andy_t_roo
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Re: Tribulation(spoilers ) chap 2

Post by andy_t_roo »

the insects are vulnerable to gravity, so i was thinking, whats the best way to create a wide-spread gravity wave?

What would happen if you dropped an active stargate into a black hole? -- i would expect that as it fell in, the other side would experience an increasingly strong gravitational pull (if you have a look at the elastic-sheet analogy, then a point in space would be being pulled "down". Eventually the forces on the stargate at the blackhole would become too great, and at that point it would collapse.

The gravitational pressure at the other end would suddenly be released, and a large gravity wave could be released. it wouldn't be largely damaging, but i expect that it would be like a huge engine blow-up; the shock would kill any insects in the vicinity. The question is, could you make it big enough to do this to a planet, or large space station?
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Re: Tribulation(spoilers ) chap 2

Post by andy_t_roo »

If fell was truly nasty, the new insects being bread will have heavy exo-skeletons, and can withstand gravitaitional force :evil: -- there goes the utility of 1/2 of fell's nasty toys, which would force more reliance on the already important telepaths.

Another nasty trick:
Earlier, it was explained that you can't predict exactly where 1 object will exit hyperspace; what if you were to jeteson an entire bucket of satans marbles, while in the vicinity of the target? it would only take 1 or 2 exiting at hyper speed inside the target object to raise mayhem ; excellent psychological warfare. If it stretches the limit of existing computer tech to do the calculations, what if you had an entire CMBI to do it? It would mean that the flagship would have to approach the target in hyper, which would be a potentially risky move, but the payoff could be large.
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Re: Tribulation(spoilers ) chap 2

Post by Gerard »

The ultimate trick is to do the unthinkable create more generations...
" Fighting with toys was one thing, but here he was considering a manned attack on a heavily fortified enemy position, where people were going to die." For his people to have the best chance at surviving they would need to be generations.. By not using the genetic skills of Karinnes to enhance Fay and Humans Jason is ignoring what could the his most powerful tool. Re-thinking the core aversion to using genetic manipulation could really shake this story up...
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Re: Tribulation(spoilers ) chap 2

Post by SYED »

For the generations to be created there must have been extensive studies of the telepathic and telekinetic powers, what things did they discover, were any new abilities possible, can ordinary humans be upgraded.
CAn other races be made telepathic, he could get the colonies of nine to join if he gave them the key to becoming wholy telepathic. What an incentive, join us and gain the ability of phycics.
He can strengthen telepaths, can he weaken or resrict them. Can he weaponise them.
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Re: Tribulation(spoilers ) chap 2

Post by dellstart »

Fel wrote:
dellstart wrote:A few questions

1) since(as anti carrot has suggested) the interdictor is the literal wall that's holding the barbarians at bay , question is does it have any weaknesses ? In this chapter , they are very adamant of pulling it from protecting the Z's , if they feel its integrity might be breached. whilst that's only prudence , it does lead one to ask , just what is the crick in the Armour.

2) How beneficial in the long run , is it to maintain close ties to the mob or telafanis, in our case. plus having Yila and Kumi working on the same page , doesn't bode well for everyone else.

3)is there such a thing as too much paranoia , Ala Aya and co. where's the balance or can there be balance?
1) Yes, the interdictor has weaknesses. The Karinnes have already discovered one of them, the ability to "phase match" the interdictor waveform to jump through it, in the same direction the waveform travels. They haven't figured it out yet, but they can further adapt to allow a ship to jump through the interdictor in any direction. And even if they don't figure it out, it's classic tactics and only smart to prevent your enemy from learning ANYTHING about your advantages. Jason and the Karinnes are assuming that the Consortium is easily as smart as they are, and that just might save their asses further down the line.

2) it never hurts to have the mob on your side, especially when you can schmooze the law to have her turn the other way.

3) Aya is doing her job, keeping Rann, and to a further extent Rann's family, alive. There can never be too much paranoia for a woman in that kind of a situation. Not when so many people want what the Karinnes have, and one way to get it is to attack the Grand Duke and his family.
thank you for clearing that up.
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Re: Tribulation(spoilers ) chap 2

Post by dellstart »

SYED wrote:For the generations to be created there must have been extensive studies of the telepathic and telekinetic powers, what things did they discover, were any new abilities possible, can ordinary humans be upgraded.
CAn other races be made telepathic, he could get the colonies of nine to join if he gave them the key to becoming wholy telepathic. What an incentive, join us and gain the ability of phycics.
He can strengthen telepaths, can he weaken or resrict them. Can he weaponise them.
syed , nice carrot and all but how you going to do it?
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Re: Tribulation(spoilers ) chap 2

Post by GBLW »

SYED wrote:For the generations to be created there must have been extensive studies of the telepathic and telekinetic powers, what things did they discover, were any new abilities possible, can ordinary humans be upgraded.
CAn other races be made telepathic, he could get the colonies of nine to join if he gave them the key to becoming wholy telepathic. What an incentive, join us and gain the ability of phycics.
He can strengthen telepaths, can he weaken or resrict them. Can he weaponise them.
In the very first book (Subjugation) it was made clear that telepathy, telekinesis, and all other psychic abilities were genetic -- in other words, if ya ain't born with it, ya can't do it! So NO, there is no way to 'upgrade' a normal person to have psychic powers. Jason can teach his children, or others with the same genetics and thus the same raw ability, but there is no apparent way he can change anyone's genetic makeup or 'teach' a normal human to have any psychic ability. The most he could do would be to give them a special interface to work with one of his new AI controlled ships -- and why would he give something like that away?
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Belgarion213
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Re: Tribulation(spoilers ) chap 2

Post by Belgarion213 »

Actually that's not ENTIRELY true. Remember when he first landed on the home-planet of his ancestors and was learning about what the Generations were he learned HOW the Generations came about. A genetically created Fey whose powers were made stronger that way and could actually listen and send to Tech computers. Once that was stable and understood many members of the house underwent the gene-therapy to upgrade themselves. It MIGHT be possible to turn a human into a very weak telepathy (by Faey standards) but since the gene therapy etc is probably very dangerous I doubt you could really justify it without writing of hundreds of casualties taht probably would die from the procedure. Then you have to teach huge amounts of Telepaths .

Most likely 'Talent' will spring up more often in humans as the fact that there are more Faey around to stimulate the latent telepathy of those humans WITH the genes and add extra vectors of telepathy into the gene pool is good enough in the long term. Jason deciding to experiment on humans in an attempt to 'make' talent would not only be crossing the Moral Event Horizon in a serious way, but would make him even more of a hypocrite for condemning the Karine for doing essentially the same thing and then turning around and doing it the first moment of convenience.
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Re: Tribulation(spoilers ) chap 2

Post by dellstart »

Belgarion213 wrote:Actually that's not ENTIRELY true. Remember when he first landed on the home-planet of his ancestors and was learning about what the Generations were he learned HOW the Generations came about. A genetically created Fey whose powers were made stronger that way and could actually listen and send to Tech computers. Once that was stable and understood many members of the house underwent the gene-therapy to upgrade themselves. It MIGHT be possible to turn a human into a very weak telepathy (by Faey standards) but since the gene therapy etc is probably very dangerous I doubt you could really justify it without writing of hundreds of casualties taht probably would die from the procedure. Then you have to teach huge amounts of Telepaths .

Most likely 'Talent' will spring up more often in humans as the fact that there are more Faey around to stimulate the latent telepathy of those humans WITH the genes and add extra vectors of telepathy into the gene pool is good enough in the long term. Jason deciding to experiment on humans in an attempt to 'make' talent would not only be crossing the Moral Event Horizon in a serious way, but would make him even more of a hypocrite for condemning the Karine for doing essentially the same thing and then turning around and doing it the first moment of convenience.
There a post some where in the back files , where we discussed why the other empires or republics are working on programs to produce telepathic soldiers.
the consensus was , if I am not mistaken , that its pretty much impossible unless its natural born talent.
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Re: Tribulation(spoilers ) chap 2

Post by afrigeek »

dellstart wrote:
Belgarion213 wrote:Actually that's not ENTIRELY true. Remember when he first landed on the home-planet of his ancestors and was learning about what the Generations were he learned HOW the Generations came about. A genetically created Fey whose powers were made stronger that way and could actually listen and send to Tech computers. Once that was stable and understood many members of the house underwent the gene-therapy to upgrade themselves. It MIGHT be possible to turn a human into a very weak telepathy (by Faey standards) but since the gene therapy etc is probably very dangerous I doubt you could really justify it without writing of hundreds of casualties taht probably would die from the procedure. Then you have to teach huge amounts of Telepaths .

Most likely 'Talent' will spring up more often in humans as the fact that there are more Faey around to stimulate the latent telepathy of those humans WITH the genes and add extra vectors of telepathy into the gene pool is good enough in the long term. Jason deciding to experiment on humans in an attempt to 'make' talent would not only be crossing the Moral Event Horizon in a serious way, but would make him even more of a hypocrite for condemning the Karine for doing essentially the same thing and then turning around and doing it the first moment of convenience.
There a post some where in the back files , where we discussed why the other empires or republics are working on programs to produce telepathic soldiers.
the consensus was , if I am not mistaken , that its pretty much impossible unless its natural born talent.
From my recollection, the gene therapy simply "upgraded" existing Karinne telepaths to turn them into Generations. It did not convert non telepaths into telepaths or generations for that matter. I would think it simply added that part of Kimdori dna that allowed the karinnes to commune and in the process as a side effect happened to increase their range, power and give them telekinesis. That said, I think they ought to study why the gene therapy was successful for some karinnes and unsuccessful for others. If they can isolate that cause, then they should be able to upgrade those Karinnes that can take to the therapy safely into generations. They are fighting a war of survival here and with such, the normal niceties and rules observed in peace time are often suspended. We know the generations have a serious advantage when at war and creating more of them should be considered if the survival of the house is at stake. As long as certain constraints are put in place to avoid the possible downsides of such a program, I think it can be done.

In my opinion just simply shutting down the program was a case of throwing out the baby with the bath water. A knee jerk reaction that makes no sense. Every thing has benefits and downsides to it. It usually a matter of managing the downsides in order to extract the benefits.
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Re: Tribulation(spoilers ) chap 2

Post by Belgarion213 »

In all honesty I agree that it would be impossible to turn a non telepath into a telepath even with gene therapy. Now making a Non telepath create telepathic children I could buy much easier but then your getting into morally gray area's and the fact that earth isn't ready to train telepathic children like the Fey Worlds are.
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Re: Tribulation(spoilers ) chap 2

Post by SYED »

they did make interfaces to mimic some of the generation ability correct, so could that extend to possibly, man machien interfaces that mimic telepathy
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Re: Tribulation(spoilers ) chap 2

Post by Belgarion213 »

Don't think that would work. The interfaces for non Generations could 'receive but not send' as no telepath could understand what the machine was sending back both because of lack of comprehension and speed. Without a way to 'send' they don't do anything, without a way to receive ..
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Re: Tribulation(spoilers ) chap 2

Post by SYED »

Depending on their fleets position, attack plans will vary. they have the breeding world, empire worlds and stations, as well as their attacked ships. Not all the empire worlds will be heavily defended, all we know for certain is the original 3000 around ship are the minimum of ships left. so say 75 systems with around sixty ships each if evenly spread. They will get cloaked ships every where, with spec opps telepaths, atacking inferstructure. how are the worlds ruled, are the consortium in their faces, or just follow our commands, give us supplies and you will be left alone. Say they set up a fake base near the empire, how much of their forces would jump. if they can get enough forces to kump out of the empire they could steal it. Activate all indictors at once, how long does it take for a gate to get set up, that is the time period that they work wit, a linked gate means reinforcements.

Say they know when and where a fleet will jump in, then use an exploding indictor again, stranding and attack. The enemy is desperate to have a gate or indictor, would be a prize to fight for. Say they jump in to the ambush site indictor and gate, they can stay and get traped or leave to allow thousands of ships to be lost, if timed right, just as indictorreaches them, the gate is linked up. While reinforcements take awhile to reach them, the whole upgraded fleet could be amassed to fight. focasd on long distance weapons, say the indictor is other side of system and moving closer, when would they detect, intime for any journeys to be longer then it would take for the gate to be set up. All those damaged ships would be stuck, sure they would attack, but it a link is established all sorts could get through.

are they gonna use that trick they originally planned, that gate in a radiation system. let them chase your ships into the system and die. no warning no escape. how many places like that exist, trap them all, use them as back doors into empires.

Seize systems near alliance and skarr space, get and indict, same for other empires and worlds. if possible near other stations. What to stop the kimdori, to antimatter bomb the stations.
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Re: Tribulation(spoilers ) chap 2

Post by ANTIcarrot »

Belgarion213 wrote:In all honesty I agree that it would be impossible to turn a non telepath into a telepath even with gene therapy.
Or alternatively, there is always the obvious alternative of technological immunity to telepathy. Again, the whole cyborg brain idea I proposed and that Fel (sort of) cannonised in Tribulation. Telepathic doination requires an organic brain to recieve the 'signals'. Replace 10% of brain tissue, and the victim can only get 90% of the attacker's broadcast. Will domination still work? Or is that too high a noise to signal ratio?

That is something which can be promised and (eventually) given to the other races. Without their telepathy to ensure easy victories, and with the other races having weapons that are as good as / better than MPACS - the Faey desire for war and conquest might be a little deminished. And once the wicked aliens get past Jason, the Faey as a species just might get a survivable lesson in the horrors of war are like when you don't have multiple I-WIN! buttons. I'm not sure they've had one of those before.
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