Better go for the smaller governments in the sector. They have more to exponentially gain plus the negotiations can be done from a position of relative strength. Tell them about the plans of the bigger empires in the sector. Then give them the weapons and the interdictors in exchange for their agreement to use the stargates managed by Jason.
Maybe the creation of a NATO-like organisation in the beginning and then moving on to a monetary organisation in the future based on Terra. Only has power over trade though. None of that other crap that the EU tries to shove down members throats.
Interesting revelation about the alliance. Which brings us to what the Consortium might be waiting for. First bear in mind two points of fact first:
1. The Alliance is reputed to have the best sensor systems in the sector
2. The Jakkans are part of the Alliance
Now comes the supposition:
1. What if the Alliance sensor systems detected the Stargate at that neutron star.
2. We know the Jakkans, like the Kimdori, can withstand the radiation of that system.
3. What if the Alliance tells the consortium about that stargate.
That brings about what they might be waiting for. The Consortium approach the Skaa with the idea they attack the Imperium tying down the Imperial Fleet. They approach the Alliance and try to get the Jakkans to capture that stargate from the Kimdori. With that done they could jump through that Stargate to Karis, inside the Interdictors saftey zone, and trap the KMS there to be slaughtered. This would then give them a secure base to work from and all the things they want from the Karinnes.
I doubt that would be possible. My assumptions with stargates is that they are linked, and if one side fell, Jason could just cut the link and thereby stranding the people on the other side of the stargate.
The biggest reason to guard the other end is to prevent a large force from quickly moving through the gate into the Karis system before that could happen. I doubt that anyone could use this area as any kind of staging area to prepare for a battle though.
Therefore, the Alliance would have to rush the stargate with all of their ships that then quickly move through the gate, and while this is possible, it is mentioned by Jason himself, that the Kimdori could just even remove the protection from the radiation and all of the non-Jakkan ships would not survive let alone making sure that they jumped into the system in the right spot while most likely blind (It is explained that the Kimdori put satellites that block light from leaving that area.)
That brings about what they might be waiting for. The Consortium approach the Skaa with the idea they attack the Imperium tying down the Imperial Fleet. They approach the Alliance and try to get the Jakkans to capture that stargate from the Kimdori. With that done they could jump through that Stargate to Karis, inside the Interdictors saftey zone, and trap the KMS there to be slaughtered. This would then give them a secure base to work from and all the things they want from the Karinnes.
Given that two stargates are needed (one at each end), I suspect this is a non-starter. If you find out that you are under attack, and the outside stargate is about to be captured you just switch off the twin gate. (Remember that you can send messages through the stargate, it is how civnet works real-time)
More damaging to Jason would be if the Consortium let it be known that Jason is holding information back. people who do not trust each other do not make good allies.
Given the Consortium's actions to secure Karrines, and the "insect race" they use, I suspect that they plan to genetically engineer a slave race which can telepathicly interface with computers. I find it unlikely that the insect race evolved in zero G or very low gravity - I suspect they were engineered, and the discs in their brains were some sort of control device.
Rational people have supported the worst dictators of history - Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, etc.
I'm mad - at least I have an excuse for what I do.
Here's the thing we know how the gates work, the Imperium knows how the gates work, The Allinace, Skaa and the Consortium doesn't know how the gates work or they would have Stargates. Remember Stargate Technology is as much of a secret in the Imperium as the Program is to the Karinnes. So since they don't know how they work it is reasonable that they might try and take one. Here is another point the Interdictors are old Karinne Tech that Jason found in the databases, What if the Interdictor was part of the Info the Consortium captured when they grab the Karinnes on Exile? They would know what the Interdictor can do and they can figure out that maybe a stargate can get around one. So the only way for them to accomplish their goal of taking Karis is to take the Stargate at the Neutron Star, not knowing they can be unlinked. What would you think if a group of beings that didn't need Stargate Tech because they can real time hyper Jump all of a sudden plants a Stargate in their back yard? Then someone points out there is a Stargate at a Neutron star where only the Jakkans and the Kimdori can only survive? Lets see the Jakkans don't have that tech level but the Kimdori do and the Kimdori are the allies of the Karinnes and the Jakkans were the ones to tell you of that gate anyway. Then you research your captured data of the Karinnes and come across the Interdictor. Reasonable conclusion there is an Interdictor sitting at Karis and you can't jump there anymore and the only way there is to capture the gate at the Neutron star. Even if they cut the link you cause the Karinnes to either:
a. shut down the interdictor to allow their allies to get in and out of Karis
or
b. Trap the KMS at Karis keeping them from getting to anywhere else you may attack
Remember the Consortium doesn't know about the tests that Jason ran and the small jumps the KMS can do through the Interdictor.
boballab wrote:Here's the thing we know how the gates work, the Imperium knows how the gates work, The Allinace, Skaa and the Consortium doesn't know how the gates work or they would have Stargates. Remember Stargate Technology is as much of a secret in the Imperium as the Program is to the Karinnes. So since they don't know how they work it is reasonable that they might try and take one. Here is another point the Interdictors are old Karinne Tech that Jason found in the databases, What if the Interdictor was part of the Info the Consortium captured when they grab the Karinnes on Exile? They would know what the Interdictor can do and they can figure out that maybe a stargate can get around one. So the only way for them to accomplish their goal of taking Karis is to take the Stargate at the Neutron Star, not knowing they can be unlinked. What would you think if a group of beings that didn't need Stargate Tech because they can real time hyper Jump all of a sudden plants a Stargate in their back yard? Then someone points out there is a Stargate at a Neutron star where only the Jakkans and the Kimdori can only survive? Lets see the Jakkans don't have that tech level but the Kimdori do and the Kimdori are the allies of the Karinnes and the Jakkans were the ones to tell you of that gate anyway. Then you research your captured data of the Karinnes and come across the Interdictor. Reasonable conclusion there is an Interdictor sitting at Karis and you can't jump there anymore and the only way there is to capture the gate at the Neutron star. Even if they cut the link you cause the Karinnes to either:
a. shut down the interdictor to allow their allies to get in and out of Karis
or
b. Trap the KMS at Karis keeping them from getting to anywhere else you may attack
Remember the Consortium doesn't know about the tests that Jason ran and the small jumps the KMS can do through the Interdictor.
Knowing how to build something, and knowing how something works are two different things. I know how a submarine works - but I sure as heck can't build one without a lot more information, even with the combined budgets of several planets. So, others might know how a stargate works ("oh, it's a wormhole") but without that foundation knowledge of how to form a wormhole, well.. they're kinda screwed.
Additionally, unless The Consortium has sensors in place to monitor hyper jumps over the entire region, they'll have a hard job detecting the stargate. Even if they did - they'd find it incredibly difficult to capture - the last resort of defending the place would be to self-destruct the gate - which wouldn't leave the Karis System cut off -- they can just redirect the gate elsewhere until they can build another.
Knowing how to build something, and knowing how something works are two different things. I know how a submarine works - but I sure as heck can't build one without a lot more information, even with the combined budgets of several planets. So, others might know how a stargate works ("oh, it's a wormhole") but without that foundation knowledge of how to form a wormhole, well.. they're kinda screwed.
Additionally, unless The Consortium has sensors in place to monitor hyper jumps over the entire region, they'll have a hard job detecting the stargate. Even if they did - they'd find it incredibly difficult to capture - the last resort of defending the place would be to self-destruct the gate - which wouldn't leave the Karis System cut off -- they can just redirect the gate elsewhere until they can build another.
Without knowing your background I can't make a definitive statement about your knoweledge of Submarines, However unless you have studied about submarines you don't know how it works. You know what it does, not how it works. Knowing what something does, does not mean knowing how it works. I'll use myself as the example
I spent 11 years in the US Navy including attending and graduating the Naval Nuclear Power School. At that school I learned how the power planet in a Nuclear powered submarine works. Before I attended that school I knew what that power planet did, provide power to make the Sub move. After learning how that power planet works I could, if I had the resources and time, build a nuclear Power planet. The school has to teach you how the thing is made and what it is made of to show you how it works. Another example is the Manhatten Project and the Atomic bomb. The Manhatten Project figured out how a nuclear explosion works. That is the precise amount of material needed to make an uncontrolled nuclear chain reaction and the way to cause it. Without that information you don't know how it works, you have the theory behind what makes it work. Once they did that they were able to build the bomb. Now after dropping the first two the rest of the world knew what it did, they had an idea about how they did it, but they didn't know exactly how it worked. The Russians figured it out from material stolen from the Manhatten project and became the second nuclear power. The other countries that became nuclear powers either got the info from either the US/Russia or they went through the expense of duplicating the Manhatten project. Now lets go to the Stargates.
The other races know what a Stargate does, they don't know how it works. They might have theories on how it works but not proof, if they had proof they could build one. Just like with the Atomic Bomb the easiest method of making a Stargate is to either capture one and reverse engineer it or use spies to steal the plans on them. The hardest method is to recreate the expirements that developed the stargates. The Consortium weapons tech is more advanced then the Imperials because they were able to capture Karinne weapons tech and work from it. That is something the Imperials and the other races didn't have, they are still reasearching their way to Karinne level. So look at it from the Consortium side they know what a Stargate does, they don't know how it works and can't build one. Now they have choices they could try and research it like the Imperium did or they can try and take one and reverse engineer it and save the time and expense.
HI awesome story. is the skaa republic is expanding as well as the skaa, if not they are a likly target, and a way to offset the skaa to keep them in check. the zio(sp) are likey targets of the alliance due to proximity and as they have royalty and so similar to faey and humans, why not offer enterance to the imperium as a new house. while the monarchy is constitutional they could work like the system on terra with the u n and jason, they keep the democracy but have a royal head of state for officialy. they could act as a forward position to ofset the alliance. also due to similarities with the species it is likly reationships could form between them, just wondering if karrine science could help with genetic compatability, seeing as they made them selves part kimdori, letting two simiar species breed would be childs play.
. if your enemies enemy is your friend then their ally is your foe. also they face danger from consotium, as with no access to faey or humans, they are the next best thing. also the nine colonies as well as those nameless planets that have any telepathy as the consortium need telepathic live stock to experiment and engineer to use biogetics. also the consortium may know the secret of the kimdori, karrines cousins, that they are needed for the technology so they will be in danger.
also what will the collective see the actions of skaa and alliance, take the tech then stab the sector in the back with the consortium, dishonarable, cowardly betrayal, also wasnt they indanger of losing a system to the alliance. Also with all their honor colture and seeing have those three systems are benefiting anyone think collective couls join the imperium, sure they have issue with merrane but that could be solved seeing as it was over the academy and karine forgave them and now cares and protect them.
For the indictors build them in to stargates, so they each are more defensable. also arm the stagates with cannons as they will become choke points tactically.it is hard to capture a target intact when it is attacking you back. also cool way to expand the imperium when the skaa or alliance start to conqure, seed the possible targets with hyperspace probes, track where fleets are going during invasions. send a smal karinne fleet with indictor and gate. either wait till before or during attack to interveen. sure the ships will be droped out at the edge of indictor field, and the field takes over two weeks to reach full size, but with calculations the area can be mined and ships ready to attack the unprepaired ships. if they help before attacks lots of ggod will and seeing benefit of life in imperium, the safety of gates and indictors, or during attack so they need prtection and help from the imperium to rebuild. also if enough indictors were used around a planet or area of space then they could easily trap a fleet. the traitors shold be geting torsion cannons, shields and armour from the academy. the plasma and hyperspace engines and tech remaine with the consortium, known only to karrine house. jason wantedd mutually assured destruction correct, so only consortium defensive and offensive abilities was givern away. the collective didnt have them so why should any one else have them. the real time jump engines would alow them to beat fleets to a destination with a small task force carrying at gate, to allow imperium to deploy quicker than their enemies. also the empress should send the houses that are causing trouble so they are weakened in defence of the imperium, while the main fllet stays at home. trilane will so be squished, first their ships wil be spent defending the imperium then tangling with the consortium. also when facing the consortium if they can disrupt the power broadcasting on a large scale, similar to the indictor field, not ony could they remove fighters and possibly weapon stations like satelites, but disrupt ship activities if the controlled insects are freed when implants fail there. apart from implants. the broad casting pasma might be used any where so is control or production is messed with then karrine rules. this may be why they fought to protect their own ships so badly, while giving weapons away. if their technolgy so protected, it may have weaknesses that can be exploited by the genius of karrine. or so viatle that some how even the playing field. they were expecting a quick and contained battle. civil war, with multiple empires invading. karine alone and unaware of the true threat. They decimate the karrine, take the computers, and as many feay as needed and retreat. they now face a warned enemy, united and soon will only be attacted on fortified positons through gates armed with their own armament. this will now be a long term operation they are also at the end of an exceptionaly long supply chain . . . where then did they get the supplies to give the collective. would their bases have such manufacturing capabilities. they would also need raw materials and dont seem the negotiating type. they either have a planet possiby colony or occupying one.we should consider why they never came back before this.
Can anyone point me to back groung impormation on thius universe? races, tech, history
[b]
FEL RULES, HIS WORK IS KILLER[/b]
hi me again. as soon as the indictors go up the consortium will have to attack. even try to force themselves through gates as they need faey and can not alow for them to get into full war footing. it takes five years for reinforcements, if they cant get in immeadiatly, they are forced to invest in the sector which is arming itself. so it would have to weaken any threats to it self, it should be the skaa and aliance as they are the largest, but as they are going to attack the faey as well , they most likey will aim at smaller groups to force the faey to come to them and diminsh the numbers they face and industry. but as we know they are back stabbers and the skaa and aliance are the biggest threats to them in term of resources, if allowed to fully arm themselves with new weapons then could pose a threat, and as indictors would not let them get near the faey then they would be no use to their plans to weaken the imperium just the sector which is easier done by them. the new weapons as stated help favour the defendors so they can not alow for them to be put into place. they would atack worlds they could use and create defensive positions as with new weapons defnsive positions are better and the faey can not allow them to have any resources.
the insects are a bred species correct so they can be eaasily replaced but they would need ship yard to repair and construct more ships. they either build themselves which would take time or seize another worlds.
here is key plan of attack for faey, karrine task force takes a gate to a system to allow fleets to enter, then indict. this way they can deny systems to all enemies. the nine colonies, the zio and possibly the zygars [i]spelling[/i] are possible allies, also as they are close to alliance then so risk of attack, they might even consider joining the imperium acting as forward bases to challenge the alliance, also should the war allow for imperial expansion then the empress and the other houses would accept possible losses due to defending karine and the sector
boballab wrote:What if the Interdictor was part of the Info the Consortium captured when they grab the Karinnes on Exile? They would know what the Interdictor can do and they can figure out that maybe a stargate can get around one. So the only way for them to accomplish their goal of taking Karis is to take the Stargate at the Neutron Star, not knowing they can be unlinked.
If they can build interdictors, Jason has already lost. They don't even need a countermeasure. All they'd need to do is deploy their own interdictor (or two or three) around Karris and take out the stargate. Fel has already told us weapons exist with that range. (How he justified the system being impenetrable against slowboats.) Anyone on Karris would be stuck there until the consortium chose to release them. "If the enemy is within a well provisioned and impenetrable fort, make sure they stay there." So I'm going to assume they can't...
Remember the Consortium doesn't know about the tests that Jason ran and the small jumps the KMS can do through the Interdictor.
It would be rudimentary military practice of them to send picket ships (or use some other method) to keep an eye on the Karrine every now and then. They may already know.
SYED wrote:hi me again. as soon as the indictors go up the consortium will have to attack.
True, but it was me, I wouldn't go after the protected systems, I'd take out everything else. It's like attacking a column of tanks. The easiest way to eliminate them as a threat is to destroy their fuel trucks. The spoils might please my allies too. Then jump my fleet around taking long range potshots at stargates. And stars possibly. I wouldn't see any benefit in direct confrontation until I'd hacked the Imperium into some more manageable pieces. With (say) 5,000 ships guarding my bases, I'd feel pretty safe doing this. Why rush?
There were no Generations who were on the ship that went to Exile, why would they have protected Information (interdictors, etc..) those were only kept (at least from what I've read/seen) by the Biogenic Computers)
Hearly wrote:There were no Generations who were on the ship that went to Exile, why would they have protected Information (interdictors, etc..) those were only kept (at least from what I've read/seen) by the Biogenic Computers)
The thing to look at is that the Consortium knows about the most secret of Karinne secrets, the Program, from the Karinnes and the Karinne tech they captured on Exile. So just because there was no Generations on Exile doesnt' mean there was no info on Interdictors on Exile. Use Atomic Bombs as an example: Einstein came up with the theory that led to the bomb in 1915 and published it. Other scientists around the world knew his theories and at the time thought they were worthless. By the 1940's multiple countries were working on making an Atomic Bombs using Einsteins theories. The US in the Manhatten project classified everything dealing with Atomic research including Einsteins theories even though everyone knew them already and you could find published books about them at the larger Universities. At the time the Karinnes came up with the Interdictors, they thought it was worthless because they had no way around it and it took 2 days to power up. Now at the time of the third civil war was there stargate Tech? I'm not sure but I think so. So it's possible that a Karinne scientist went back to revist that idea.
Another thing to think on Cybi wants Jason to build more CBIM's. Why? Because Cybi besises being the last CBIM was only meant for emergency situations. She wasn't one of the prime CBIM's that ran Karis and we know that the CBIM at the Academy dumped all her info into Cybi's databanks. I wonder if the way that was done and the orders Koiri Karinne gave Cybi at the end caused information that at one time was not so secret to be made more secret. Remember Koiri didn't want the Imperium to prosper off the grave of the Karinnes. If the info was orginally in the Academy CBIM's databanks that means someone was researching it and remember also that back then the Non-Generation Karinne scientists were trusted with secrets just like Jason trust secrets to the Non-Generation Faey on Karis. Koiri could have put a blanket security lock on all Karinne research that got dumped into Cybi's databanks at the end until the time of a new Grand Duchess was found and let her decide who gets to know what.
Hearly wrote:There were no Generations who were on the ship that went to Exile, why would they have protected Information (interdictors, etc..) those were only kept (at least from what I've read/seen) by the Biogenic Computers)
The thing to look at is that the Consortium knows about the most secret of Karinne secrets, the Program, from the Karinnes and the Karinne tech they captured on Exile. So just because there was no Generations on Exile doesnt' mean there was no info on Interdictors on Exile. Use Atomic Bombs as an example: Einstein came up with the theory that led to the bomb in 1915 and published it. Other scientists around the world knew his theories and at the time thought they were worthless. By the 1940's multiple countries were working on making an Atomic Bombs using Einsteins theories. The US in the Manhatten project classified everything dealing with Atomic research including Einsteins theories even though everyone knew them already and you could find published books about them at the larger Universities. At the time the Karinnes came up with the Interdictors, they thought it was worthless because they had no way around it and it took 2 days to power up. Now at the time of the third civil war was there stargate Tech? I'm not sure but I think so. So it's possible that a Karinne scientist went back to revist that idea.
Another thing to think on Cybi wants Jason to build more CBIM's. Why? Because Cybi besises being the last CBIM was only meant for emergency situations. She wasn't one of the prime CBIM's that ran Karis and we know that the CBIM at the Academy dumped all her info into Cybi's databanks. I wonder if the way that was done and the orders Koiri Karinne gave Cybi at the end caused information that at one time was not so secret to be made more secret. Remember Koiri didn't want the Imperium to prosper off the grave of the Karinnes. If the info was orginally in the Academy CBIM's databanks that means someone was researching it and remember also that back then the Non-Generation Karinne scientists were trusted with secrets just like Jason trust secrets to the Non-Generation Faey on Karis. Koiri could have put a blanket security lock on all Karinne research that got dumped into Cybi's databanks at the end until the time of a new Grand Duchess was found and let her decide who gets to know what.
Yes, but I don't think Scout ships had all the Karinne secrets on each ship, I mean yes, most of the Karinne's would know about CBIM's and maybe some basic stuff, just like someone talked about stargates, yes people know they connect using a wormhole, but doesn't help them build them, also the interdictors were discarded as not practical as they didn't have stargates at that time, so why would anyone on a scout ship know about that.
consortium may attack gates so the faey are stuck in thier systems as it would take a year to make a gate out of a system, but they have resources and industry that would arm them even more in that time, with gates and indictors nearly all ships can be sent to defend alliwes or take down enemies, when consortium big bad fleet is known, all the itte guys are gonna ask for protection, so prepare to welcome the imperium. seriously, it would take time for them to arm themselves, while the imperium would have ships to spare
At the time of the intitial research there was no Stargates. At the time of the civil war we don't know. See we don't know how old that reasearch is. Is it 3,000 years old? Is it 2,000 years old? We also don't know when Stargates were discovered. Was it before or after the war that desroyed Karinne. It may not seem like much but it could be important. We also don't know how the Karinnes classified information. Do they do like we do were you have different levels: Confidential, Secret, Top-Secret and Top Secret Codeworded. If its like us Confidential information has a wider distribution base then Secret and the higher the classification the lower the distribution. The Program in our society would fall in the Top Secret codeword category but parts of that info still made it to Exile. So if the Interdictors fell into the Confidential category, because the Karinnes saw no use for it, that info could have made it to Exile. Thats the thing we don't know what all the information was in the Data captured by the Consortium. Jason at first assumed that all the Karinne Tech info was still secure, but as he found out it wasn't. Once you have a security breach you have to assume that all your infomation has been comprimised and work backwards and prove it wasn't. Jason hasn't done that and keeps running into suprise to suprise.
That type of thing I have first hand experience with when I joined the Navy. I joined at the time John Walker was captured. In 1950 the USS Pueblo was captured by the North Koreans. The Pueblo was a spy ship and on board were the Crypto devices used by the US military and they were captured. Those devices were taken off and reverse engineered. At the time the US didn't make any changes to the devices for two reasons.
1. They weren't sure the devices were capture in working order
2. The Soviets didn't have the code keys
Along came John Walker a man that wanted to live the good life and stuck with a growing family, lots of bills to pay and access to the code keys. John Walker then sold those code keys to the Soviets for over 20 years. He recruited others to continue this after he retired from the Navy. At the time of his capture the FBI and NCIS asked him how much he gave away. He told them if he had access to it color it gone. Shortly after that those old devices that the US used for over 30 years was done away with and new ones replaced them. Now if any possible breach is suspected of those devices and codes we no longer assume they are secure, we assume they are all comprimised and change them immediately so that we no longer face an opponent that knew where everyone of our fleets were for 20 years.
Jason has to stop assuming that all his information is secure. He has to start assuming that any information and research that the Karinnes had at the time of the civil war could be in Consortium hands and work from that. He would have to have Miarri go through and check to see how secure that information was before the attack on Karis in the civil war piece by piece to prove that it was impossible for it to be in any of the databanks of the Scimitar or any personal storage devices that the crew had with them. Remember the crew of the Scimitar was a scientific research crew, so there was scientist on board that could have taken research work with them. Miarri needs to see if she can match any of the Scimitar crew to any classified information in Cybi's Databanks. If one of those scientists had access to the interdictors research you have to assume that the Consortium knows about them not the other way around.
Inter-galactic politics... 
