Unification - Chapter 1 - Spoilers

[Mizriath]

Hmm fifer,

This has a similar line somwhere where .... Jason create a mine... myleena create a counter... Jason create a counter to the counter... and Myleena creates another counter to the counter to the counter... it gets complicated....

But a counter to an interdictor... it is something like creating a totally new platform of space travel.... because I thought an interdictor disrupts the distortion of space which allows things to go into hyperspace and appears somewhere, through a kind of wormhole technology with no time lag because it joins the 2 points. So hyperspace travel with time lag... the Faey's technology... puzzles me at that time because i thought hyperspace does not depend on propulsion, which means the time lag is caused by actual travel on another dimension with compressed time. Just my thoughts.

So probably the interdictor might have different impact on both hyperspace travel. Well sublight travel, which uses propulsion could be improved.

[TLGG]

I was thinking that maybe there is no need to modify anything. I think one of the early descriptions of the interdictor said something along the lines of creating an interferience around a point of focus (the device itself), however, if an author would need for his devices to work inside that area he could make the interdictor's area of effect to begin outside the planet's orbit, or beyond that to include the moon base, for example. That would be a small amount space considering the reach of the thing.

On a different note, I firmly believe we are going around in circles needlessly, this is Fel we are talking about, he wouldn't make his characters (which are pretty damn smart) kill their own technology. The interdictor is likely to affect hyperdrives and little else. Maybe it only affects a certain part of the hyperspace spectrum so that it blocks the ability to enter it, but still allow for the rest of the gadgets to work.

[kabalman2000]

::puts on beanie cap with the little propeller on top::

Okay, now that I've got my thinkin' hat on, let's review what we know, then I'll try to warp my mind and get into the evil twisted head space of the one who's words we wait for.

Hyperspace is an upper dimension not perceivable by us 3D beings.

Hyperspace is occupied by different forms of matter and energy (Teryon strings, Omega energy, metaphase plasma, that wierd spider silk (and the beings it is designed to catch), and multi-dimensional matter like the teryon antenna array).

The hyperspace transmitter works by "modulating harmonic teryon strings."

Karinne hyperspace jump engines eliminate relitavistic differences between hyperspace and real space whereas Imperium engines are more tolerant of gravity wells.

If your jump engines fail, you can get stuck in hyperspace.

Now, I twirl the propeller and ...

I have a headache. Why would I ever try to think like Fel. ::groan:: And I probably got it all wrong anyway.

The only way I can make it all work is like this: there are multiple quantum states of reality. Several (a bunch, whatever) make up "hyperspace" but only a few of the total hyperspace states are used for jump travel. These quantum states have a different first law of motion (this one being "objects rest unless continuously acted upon") something like infinite friction where if you lose power to the drive you just stop (cause otherwise you're pointed at a gravity well already and would pop out when you hit it).

Different quantum states are used for gate travel, others for teryon string communication, etc. Therefor, the interdictor only screws around with the quantum states that are used in hyperspace jump travel and leaves the other quantum states alone. This possibly is done by creating a large scale effect of the type that effects hyperspace due to a gravity well (without creating a gravity well).

My problems through all of this were: allowing matter that exists in multiple states (phase cloth say) to travel without being effected by hyperspace matter; requiring energy application to enter and leave hyperspace; gravity wells dropping a ship out of hyperspace but a ship without power staying in hyperspace forever; having the interdictor only effect hyperspace travel. It's been a bear trying to squirrel around all this stuff.

The previous three paragraphs are my sort of finished thinking on the subject. Just for giggles, I've included my unedited rambling starts to trying to explain all this below. I'd get into something and realize it didn't take into account a given from the stories. Arrrgh! But I thought you'd all have fun stomping all over it so ...

--- unedited rambling attempts at explaining hyperspace in the subjugation universe ---

I'm going to make a jump here and guess that getting into hyperspace is something like the dimensional bubbles used in the PPG's. A bubble of 3D space is forced into a higher dimension with a stable wrapper to keep it there and maintain 3D space inside. Puncturing this wrapper is what drops the ship back to it's normal dimension. The way the wrapper is formed means it can't be formed in a gravity well. The more complex wrapper that takes away dimensional relativity is more susceptible to gravity interference on forming.


Hmm, we know it takes energy to enter hyperspace, but maybe not to exit (Resolute was towed to Karis and got out of hyperspace after a power failure). So either the gravity well of Karis popped resolute out or Defiant and Sora's Pride provided energy to do it.

We also know that there is significant friction in hyperspace or Resolute would not have had to be towed, it would have coasted the remaining 20 or 30 seconds to it's destination. First, one of two choices 1) the gravity well thing only effects getting into hyperspace, not out or 2) there is significant friction in hyperspace (more likely). Why? Well, you can get stuck there.

For #1, space may be big, but most travel is in the plane of the galaxy and you're going to run into a gravity well somewhere. If it only takes months to travel from one galaxy to the next, then I expect you'd run into something within a few years (plus, you're going to be pointed at a significant gravity well of your destination when you enter). Of course, you probably won't be alive or sane when you do, nevertheless you'll be out of hyperspace. So a gravity well wouldn't pull you out.

For #2, if #1 doesn't apply that means that, when the engines fail, you're going to slow to a stop almost immediately (remember, you're pointed at a gravity well).

--- It just goes round in circles ---

[Mad Monk]

Apart from the hyperspace/interdictor issues, I suspect that Jason will also have more basic probles, with some of the exiles refusing to go. Lets face it, would YOU leave your home, and everything you have known your whole life just because someone came along with shiney toys and said an ancient enemy was about to attack you? Especially if he had previously offered to let you stay?

I suspect that some will stay, even if they have to run away. (Quite a turnaround after the way Jason ran away to the reserve in Subjugation!) There will also be a lot of resentment, especially if some of those left behind are captured by the consortium, even if they are warned. Jason will be torn. He knows that he cannot protect both systems, but he wants to do the best for his new found citizens.

All that and the twins revenge on Kumi to look forward to!

[Mad Monk]

Hmm, we know it takes energy to enter hyperspace, but maybe not to exit (Resolute was towed to Karis and got out of hyperspace after a power failure). So either the gravity well of Karis popped resolute out or Defiant and Sora's Pride provided energy to do it.

We also know that there is significant friction in hyperspace or Resolute would not have had to be towed, it would have coasted the remaining 20 or 30 seconds to it's destination. First, one of two choices 1) the gravity well thing only effects getting into hyperspace, not out or 2) there is significant friction in hyperspace (more likely). Why? Well, you can get stuck there.

For #1, space may be big, but most travel is in the plane of the galaxy and you're going to run into a gravity well somewhere. If it only takes months to travel from one galaxy to the next, then I expect you'd run into something within a few years (plus, you're going to be pointed at a significant gravity well of your destination when you enter). Of course, you probably won't be alive or sane when you do, nevertheless you'll be out of hyperspace. So a gravity well wouldn't pull you out.

For #2, if #1 doesn't apply that means that, when the engines fail, you're going to slow to a stop almost immediately (remember, you're pointed at a gravity well).

--- It just goes round in circles ---

The reason given for towing the ships was to help each other in case of engine failure. It was said that if the engines failed, then the ships could be "lost" in hyperspace, and stuck there. It seems that the engines are needed to enter / leave hyperspace. A ship that had engine failure might still have velocity (or its hyperspace equivalent) The disorienting nature of hyperspace would make repairing the engine impossible, so you would be stuck until you went mad.

[kabalman2000]

The reason given for towing the ships was to help each other in case of engine failure. It was said that if the engines failed, then the ships could be "lost" in hyperspace, and stuck there. It seems that the engines are needed to enter / leave hyperspace. A ship that had engine failure might still have velocity (or its hyperspace equivalent) The disorienting nature of hyperspace would make repairing the engine impossible, so you would be stuck until you went mad.

Yeah, that's why I came up with the different first law of motion. Obviously any prudent person, aware of the possibility, would make sure to aim their course at a gravity well that would force them out of hyperspace in case of engine failure. Since people don't do that or it doesn't work, one can only presume that an engine failure means you stop dead so you don't run into a gravity well and get forced back into normal space.

That's the explanation I came up with to reasonably fit with everything else. Of course, an evil, twisted genius might come up with an entirely different reason (gravity wells work backwards and push you away in hyperspace, say). We'll just have to wait and see.

[Spec8472]

Of course, an evil, twisted genius might come up with an entirely different reason (gravity wells work backwards and push you away in hyperspace, say). We'll just have to wait and see.

Or simply the presence of a large gravity well makes it improbably difficult to calculate the correct parameters for the translation back to normal space.

[Fel]

Hyperspace 101 is in session.

To put it in the simplest terms, hyperspace engines don't really "move" a ship through hyperspace. The process is called "jumping" because that's what the engines really do. Their function is to push the ship into and out of hyperspace, to breach the upper-dimensional boundary to get in, then push the ship back into normal space when it gets where it's going. Propulsion in hyperspace itself is a different matter. When it initially breaches hyperspace, normal engines just push the ship into a course and speed, then count down a set time before reversing the process. That's why a ship has to be physically pointing in the direction in normal space it wants to go when it jumps into hyperspace.

When a ship's engines breach hyperspace and send the ship in, that ship is invested with a certain amount of "velocity." It's not really velocity, but let's call it that for now. The ship literally just coasts on that "velocity" without resistance through hyperspace, and after a pre-determined amount of time, the ship's computer automatically uses the engines to transition the ship back into real space.

Think of it as water in a whirlpool when water drains out of your tub. No matter how fast or slow an object is going when it gets there, the whirlpool regulates its velocity once it enters, and then it enters the pipe below at a set speed dictated by how much water is draining into it. This is a very rough and not entirely complete metaphor for what happens when a real space object "drains" into hyperspace, but it's good enough.

Karinne hyperspace engines can actually move a ship in hyperspace, changing course and speed, and this is one reason why Karinne engines don't suffer a relativity delay. The actual elapsed time of a normal ship and a Karinne ship in hyperspace is NOT the same, it is just the perception of the people on board that makes it so. When a Karinne ship enters hyperspace, the engines "burst" and invest the ship in a very specific amount of hyperspace velocity that syncs the ship with real time, and then it travels to its endpoint destination. It takes two days for the Imperium to jump from Makan to Karis in real time. The crew on those ships perceive only about maybe 17 seconds of real time, but in actuality, they spend about a second longer in hyperspace in "hyperspace time," which translates to a real time delay. This difference in velocity is very small, but it has a tremendous impact. Hyperspace is a realm where true speed alters time itself at an exaggerated level, because there is no real time in hyperspace, and there is no "velocity" in hyperspace. "Time" is a subjective quantity linked directly to speed. A Karinne ship does not really go faster in hyperspace, it compresses pure time as an independent variable not linked to the space-time continuum to simulate velocity, and it can do that because in hyperspace, space and time are NOT directly linked. Because Karinne and Consortium ship engines can actively induce velocity while in hyperspace, they compress time and therefore can move through hyperspace in real time.

You might ask "if ships can manipulate time itself, why can't they go "faster" and arrive at a destination faster than in real time?" That's a very good question, and the Karinnes labored to solve it for a very long time. The simplest solution is that even though time is an independent variable in hyperspace, the three dimensional object trying to alter time is limited by the dimension from which it entered hyperspace. It cannot compress time at a rate faster than time flows at the point where it entered hyperspace, it can only compress hyperspace time up to the point where it matches time at its point of entry. And since Karinne ships must be moving at a very slow velocity to enter hyperspace, they can't exploit the idea of accelerating to near-light speeds and then making a jump to let them traverse the entire galaxy in under a second.

Ships need their engines to breach the barrier of hyperspace on both sides of their trip, and that's why a ship can become trapped in hyperspace. If its engines fail while in hyperspace, then they can't get out, and as someone else pointed out, the disorienting effect of hyperspace makes it impossible to effect repairs. How they get out is simply to "stop" in hyperspace. It's that subjective induced velocity that keeps them in hyperspace, so to get out, they simply shed that induced velocity. Three dimensional objects in hyperspace are like paper airplanes...if they have no velocity, they can't stay airborne. Inertia seems to exist in hyperspace, and there is no sense of friction to naturally slow objects, so a ship that fails to jump out, that does not shed its velocity, will continue on until some outside force affects it and causes it to "fall" out of hyperspace.

The reality the Karinnes don't know is that there IS an eventual slowing of an item and an ultimate drop out of hyperspace without engines, but that takes about a year, and sends the vessel literallly to the other side of the universe.

There are hyperspace features that can force a ship out of hyperspace early, robbing it of its "velocity" and dropping it to real space. A teryon current is one such event, a river of pure energy that, when a ship hits it, it stops it dead and causes it to drop into real space. Hyperspace wrinkles, distortion in the fabric of hyperspace, also have this effect. Think of it as a "speed bump" in hyperspace, and it robs a ship of its "velocity" and makes it drop.

This is how the interdictor works. It generates artificial distortions in a very small area in hyperspace, which translates to a sphere a light-year in diameter in real space. This distortion robs real objects of any induced velocity and forces them to drop back into real space. These distortions are ACTIVE, they are like ripples in a pond created by a pendulum dipping into the water, radiating away from the source. This effect overcomes engines that can even move in real time, engines that can invest a ship with its own velocity. If not for the fact that a real object drops back into real space instantaneously when it loses its velocity, the interdictor could probably push ships back through hyperspace.

It will have one effect, though. Ships that enter the area of its effect at an angle or tangent to the effect aren't pushed back into real space, they are instead deflected, altering their course. The result is that when the drop back into normal space, they aren't where they're supposed to be.

The interdictor will have no effect on Karinne technology or communications outside of preventing them from using hyperspace engines to reach Karis.

[dellstart]

wow!

Thanks Fel , that does answer a lot of questions and puts a lot of rumors to sleep as well.

[kabalman2000]

Well ... That answers that.

I thought there was still one question remaining, but I can't find confirmation of my presumption anywhere in the text. It does say that a gravity well will prevent you going into hyperspace. I was mis-reading the implication in Insurrection ch. 4; apparently a gravity well prevents you from coming out not forces you to come out ("...but Navii had predicted that they would come out of hyperspace as absolutely close to Karis as was possible...It was certainly possible for them to jump in on the far side of the planet...").

Oops. My bad. I must have been having an Honorverse moment. (No! Too - Many - Hyperspaces! Must - limit - thinking - to one - universe. Arrrgh ... gak)

Thanks Fel.

[ANTIcarrot]

This is how the interdictor works. It generates artificial distortions in a very small area in hyperspace, which translates to a sphere a light-year in diameter in real space. This distortion robs real objects of any induced velocity and forces them to drop back into real space. These distortions are ACTIVE, they are like ripples in a pond created by a pendulum dipping into the water, radiating away from the source. This effect overcomes engines that can even move in real time, engines that can invest a ship with its own velocity. If not for the fact that a real object drops back into real space instantaneously when it loses its velocity, the interdictor could probably push ships back through hyperspace.

It sounds like there might be (very difficult) ways to counter this with (large quantities of) brute force. If it is a wave form, then for brief moments between peaks and troughs will be finite periods of normality. If your ship could jump in that time, and you could sync your drive to the frequency, you could micro-jump your way across that light year. Or use powerful karinne derived engines to push over/through the distortions.

Though this leads to a question about hypergates: Are they also line of sight? If they are then it's not going to take that long to find the other end. And this might turn into something very similar to a castle siege.

Which leads to another worrying thought. Jason has said he wants to give one of this fancy dohicky interdictors to Dahnai for the Faey home system. Do the Faey have the slightest clue how to conduct a fixed defense battle? And before people go on about the Faey's thousands of years of space warfare experience, have a look at this entry on space combat, written for an entirely unrelated story of blue alien space elves:
http://well-of-souls.com/outsider/forum ... fense.html
For the Faey it's worse that that, as their ships don't have jump zones. Fighting a battle where the enemy can appear at any time from any direction is different from a battle where they can only come from a few small areas. It takes a leap of faith to have confidence in that impregnable wall the interdictor throws across all other approaches to your homeworld. And Fel has spent no small amount of time telling us that faey women can occasionally be ... a little stubborn once an idea has gotten into their heads. How quickly will (can?) the Faey admiralty adapt?

[dellstart]

I so love that comic , but it updates so so slowly and sporadically.(like three or four pages a year, if your lucky) sad to say.

[andy_t_roo]

there seems to be a large amount of repetition within the description of the industry and resources of Exile - near the end of the first chapter unification thats just been posted, "their advanced knowledge of chemistry" is repeated, and it is mentioned about how the only metals they have are Au,Cu,Pb,Zn, then stated a few sentences later that they don't have an abundance of metal resources. Are those the only useful elements which the crust of Exile is made of, or are there others, such as silicon, which are available but which they can't process?

Phosphorous, which is stated to part of the base "elemental" resources, is never found naturally in elemental form -- it is too reactive;it combines with oxygen out of the air -- but normally in a phosphate form (not that that matters, as if you have access to carbon and silicon you can reduce it to white phosphorus, and silicon, as a light element, should be available near the surface of every large rocky body). The closest resource to "elemental carbon" is probably coal - geological processes more form carbonates instead (carbon,calcuim,oxygen compounds) rather than deposits of pure carbon.

I do like the way Exile is introduced in detail in the first few pages, as then abandoning it near the end of the chapter is quite a surprise - although I assume that this is setting up the planet, or the people from Exile, for some more significant use later in the series

[Mizriath]

Thanks Fel for the half chapter in Hyperspace ala Karinnes.

The interdictor only affects hyperspace travel and not communications. I will not push on the idea of teryon communications.

I will just count down to the end of the week... i remember and counts.

[zedd]

I wonder how much of Fel post he had to decide/think/decide just to answer this thread

Of course that would mean we are delaying the next chapter making Fel "loose" time finding explanations to our questions .....

Care to share that info with us Fel? How much of your stories our questions have influenced?