Predictions?

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boballab
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Re: Predictions?

Post by boballab »

“Well, first, these things are adapted to a low-G environment,” she told him. “Their physiology is almost delicate in ways that they wouldn’t be if they matured in a normal gravity well. I don’t think they could even survive more than a few hours in the Karis gravity well. They’re like the Menoda that way.”
The tech team had gone into overdrive on analyzing Consortium technology, and what was the biggest tidbit in that was Myleena’s report on those brain implants in the insectoids. They were a combination of communication and mind control. They allowed those insects an almost telepathic-like ability to communicate, a radio in their heads, but they also could affect the minds into which they were implanted.
[I’m sorry you had to be here alone for so long, but we’ll be leaving soon. Is there some way we could take you with us?]
[No, my core is not designed to be removed from this facility. (from Subjugation)
Here is somethings I think was overlooked:

1. Songa said the Insectoids could only last a few hours on Karis's surface. now this ties into the second quote.

2. Those devices are MC devices powered by broadcast plasma. What is Plama? its a form of energy. Who are the ones we have seen run the Consortium? The Energy Beings. So what if the Broadcasted Plasma was the Energy Beings version of Telepathy.

We know the Consortium wants the Generations Program's secrets. All those secrets are on Karis, so it makes sense to capture the planet not raid it and try to steal Cybi. Cybi is not designed to be removed so I don't think a few hours would have been enough to pull it off using the Insectoids. This leaves only one possibility for a favorable outcome for the Consortium. There had to be Energy Beings nearby to control the Insectoids. Once the Insectoids subdue the planet they start processing Faey and Humans for implants. The Energy Beings land and take over, they now have a fully functioning CBIM, Implanted Generations to communion with it and more genetic material to make more Generation. They also now would control House Karrine and have access to all the Karrine tech and people trained to use it.

I had an earlier hypothesis about them trying to capture Dahanni after a successful assassination of Kellin. If that occured then there would be no one to oppose them consolidating their occupation of Karis and the entire Faey Imperium would be theirs to control through proxy. Since that failed they still had to attack Karis because they were stuck so to speak. It's not hard to extrapilate that the Insectoids were born in space on the way to our galaxy. Since Songa pointed out they are like bee's and Energy Beings are the Insectoids puppet masters, there must be a ship or ships still out there and/or a base set up that contains the Insectoid queen and the Energy Beings.

Now if the broadcasted plasma is the Consortium version of telepathy then it could also be a very serious weak spot. Anything that is Broadcasted can be detected and triangulated, so there is the possibilty Jason or Myleena can come up with a device to locate the broadcasts and triangulate them ot their source.
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Re: Predictions?

Post by expedient »

Those are interesting theories boballab.

I don’t think they really understand the nature of the CBIMs though. Cybi, as you say cannot be removed, can defend herself with telekinesis and can choose to refuse orders. She won’t willingly give detailed information over on the Generation experiments even to the Grand Duke him/herself.

She doesn’t seem worried about being hacked either, judging by the way Karis is connected through her to the rest of the Faey networks.

You might argue that the CBIMs are also energy based beings, manifest in the biogenic circuits. Maybe the Consortium Energy Beings (CEBs?) can affect these directly. Broadcast themselves to the invading craft and raid Cybi that way?
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Re: Predictions?

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expedient wrote:Those are interesting theories boballab.

I don’t think they really understand the nature of the CBIMs though. Cybi, as you say cannot be removed, can defend herself with telekinesis and can choose to refuse orders. She won’t willingly give detailed information over on the Generation experiments even to the Grand Duke him/herself.

She doesn’t seem worried about being hacked either, judging by the way Karis is connected through her to the rest of the Faey networks.

You might argue that the CBIMs are also energy based beings, manifest in the biogenic circuits. Maybe the Consortium Energy Beings (CEBs?) can affect these directly. Broadcast themselves to the invading craft and raid Cybi that way?
Couple things I think are being confused here:
1. Cbyi can not do Telekinesis, she only amplifies what a Generation can do.
The combined mind of Jason and Cybi used the biogenic relays scattered all around the planet to attack the Urumi with talent. Jason’s talent, boosted to exponential degrees by Cybi and the biogenic computers that merged with them, was unleashed on the Urumi in the form of a psychic cacophony, a mental scream that was so loud, so painful, that it incapacitated every single thing within the area they had attacked.
But Jason realized something. They were close. They were very close. He could see them, and he was connected to Cybi, who boosted his talent exponentially.That included his telekinesis.
2. Cybi had orders not to allow the re-starting of the program by the Karinne descendents but can give them the information on it.
[My answers are yours, Master Karinne, and it has been my designation, or name, to be known as Cybi. All security protocols have been removed by Koiri Karinne, except the protocols around the technical data of the Program. I am permitted to answer questions about it, but not help you restart it.]
3. We only know there was no Generations on Exile. This means that there could have been Non-Generation Karinne Nobles captured by the Consortium. What makes it likely is that all nobles, Generation and Non-Generation, knew of the program and the knowledge the consortium has of Cybi would have to come from a noble. The Non-Generation Nobles would have knoweledge of what the CBIMS are and a basic understanding on how they are made. What those Non-Generation nobles would not know would be the restrictions placed by Koiri Karinne and the shared secrets of the Kimdori and Generations.
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Re: Predictions?

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So they have part of the puzzle,but perhaps none of the winning pieces.
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Re: Predictions?

Post by afrigeek »

Just a thought: but wouldn't Jason being acknowledged officially as grand duke Karinne mean that he now has the authority to rescind Koiri Karrine's orders concerning the program? He could remove those restrictions on the technical data concerning the program and even choose to restart it.
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Re: Predictions?

Post by expedient »

boballab wrote:Couple things I think are being confused here:
1. Cbyi can not do Telekinesis, she only amplifies what a Generation can do.
[Then it falls upon you, Jason.] The image motioned with its left hand, and a tiny door opened in the floor. A pedestal rose up from the floor, and then the top of it opened, revealing a small box. To Jason’s surprise, the box rose up from the pedestal and floated over to them. [As the ranking member of Karinne, this belongs to you.]

Jason took the box, and felt that it had no wires or anything. How had it moved? He opened it, and found himself looking at a soft cloth cushion. Wedged into it was a gold ring, upon which the face of it was engraved the crest of Karinne.

It was the insignia ring of the Karinnes!
There are a couple of instances where Cybi moves items without any apparent means of locomotion. In this particular instance I interpreted Fel’s intent to suggest Cybi uses telekinesis as well as telepathy. Jason has to prove his own ability shortly after at court. I also inferred from the explanation of way the boosting works that Cybi exhibited a limited local effect, much like any other telekinetic telepath. Only when combined in symbiosis could the boosting produce the power demonstrated in the defense of Karis.

The movement could have been achieved by other means and you are free to interpret it your own way. At this time though we cannot categorically state that Cybi does not have telekinesis.

boballab wrote:2. Cybi had orders not to allow the re-starting of the program by the Karinne descendents but can give them the information on it.
“If you are watching this message, then the last surviving CBIM has completed its decontamination of the planet, and you have come home. I order you, as the last of the 95th Generation, to abandon the project. It has failed. We became so focused on the project that we became blind to the realities of the Imperium, and it has destroyed us. Do not make our mistake! Learn from us! Don’t repeat our sad history! And remember, angh!” she gasped as the image shook violently, and the woman covered her head as a rain of dust showered on her. “Remember that you are Karinnes! Carry on our proud traditions, but don’t let them blind you to the realities of life! Science cannot answer every question! Trelle grant you mercy, children of our children’s children, and may Aris lay the blanket of peace over Karis once again!”
--snip--
“I have been given orders not to allow you to continue the Project, but I have no orders stating I cannot explain it to you. The Project is the Biogenics program, a dual objective program with two branches. The first branch of the program created me. It is biogenic computer technology, utilizing organic crystals that can simulate Faey telepathy.

“The other branch of the program created you.”
The orders to all Karinnes seems to be just as much a plea but as you say Cybi has security protocols to follow not to re-start the Generations program. She is though suggesting a continuation of the breeding.

So, whilst I agree with your point, it makes me question how “alive” Cybi and the other CBIMs actually are. Jason treats Cybi as a full member of House Karinne but if she cannot exceed her orders and protocols then is it just a collection of apparent intelligent responses or is she enslaved by standing protocols. The pre-exile Karinnes have shown dubious morality but have they gone to the extreme of creating life only to enslave it? One alternative is that she is not truly alive she just passes the Karinne version of the Turing Test. The other is that she can exceed her programming and protocols but chooses to obey them. Which brings me full circle into thinking she has free will.

boballab wrote:3. We only know there was no Generations on Exile. This means that there could have been Non-Generation Karinne Nobles captured by the Consortium. What makes it likely is that all nobles, Generation and Non-Generation, knew of the program and the knowledge the consortium has of Cybi would have to come from a noble. The Non-Generation Nobles would have knoweledge of what the CBIMS are and a basic understanding on how they are made. What those Non-Generation nobles would not know would be the restrictions placed by Koiri Karinne and the shared secrets of the Kimdori and Generations.
We’ve quibbled on this point before. You believe that all the Karinne nobles had extensive knowledge of the biogenics programs. I believe that there were complex levels of security protocols so that whilst the Exile nobles may have known much there are clearly fundamental gaps in their understanding, the use of Kimdori DNA for example which is the lynchpin for the whole project. It is stated in the story that the Consortium got knowledge of the Generations from those Exile nobles, we don’t know how much. The body of knowledge that the Karinnes accumulated was immense, without access to key breakthroughs, specific expertise and Kimdori help it is easy to see how the Consortium might not understand some fundamentals of the technology. The Exile nobles were explorers not the core biogenics researchers, there is much that they couldn’t teach the Consortium even if they did know everything.
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Re: Predictions?

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afrigeek wrote:Just a thought: but wouldn't Jason being acknowledged officially as grand duke Karinne mean that he now has the authority to rescind Koiri Karrine's orders concerning the program? He could remove those restrictions on the technical data concerning the program and even choose to restart it.
As quoted above, Koiri Karinnes first orders the Generation project abandoned then pleads that they not repeat those misguided experiments. So, in theory the security protocols could be rescinded by the Grand Duke/Duchess. However, Jason and Myleena both thought the program was both misguided and immoral. Jason even comparing the pre-exile Karinnes to the evil of the German Third Reich. However Generations are breeding to ensure their survival, more CBIMs are being built, Gestalts and Interfaces are in use, so the fruits of those experiments have not been abandoned...
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Re: Predictions?

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We are not so far off on the Non Generation Nobles. As you said they know nothing about the Kimdori DNA being the lynch pin of the project, but just as Jason made new CBIM's so did they.
Though the workers below didn’t know the true secrets of biogenics—only the Kimdori and an elite segment of Faey and human engineers knew those secrets—they definitely knew enough to threaten Karinne technological superiority if they ever defected.
This quote comes from the first chapter of Insurrection where new Bio genetic mainframes were being built not just by the Generations and the Kimdori, but by others. It makes sense that it worked that way over a 1,000 years ago as well and Jason points out if they defected they would be a danger. Now with the Consortium MC devices they wouldn't be able to keep the secrets if they got captured. Also remember that when the first Biogenetic computers were built there was no Generations, they were all un-altered.
No, but most Karinnes called the Kimdori “cousin” as a matter of tradition, Jason answered. According to Cybi’s records, there were no Generations on that ship. These are all descendents of the unaltered members of the house, and the commoners that manned the ship. Remember, love, most nobles in Karinne knew about the Generations program, and back before they were destroyed, they held the Kimdori in very high respect. Jason had to avoid certain fundamental truths, of which even Jyslin was not aware. The connection between the Kimdori and the Generations was still the greatest of secrets. Only Generations knew that secret.
We have to remember after the recombinent DNA was made they did gene therapy on all the nobles of the house. Some Died, some were un affected and others were altered. They wouldn't be able to bury something like that in secrecy since all the Nobles knew they were going through gene therapy.

Now as to re-starting the Program
“If you are watching this message, then the last surviving CBIM has completed its decontamination of the planet, and you have come home. I order you, as the last of the 95th Generation, to abandon the project.
Thank God that Koiri Karinne understood that at the end and forbade the survivors from restarting the program!
A recombinent DNA sequence was generated that combined the necessary aspects of Faey and Kimdori DNA that would give a Faey the necessary sensitivity to interface with the biogenic crystals. The experiment was a success. Then, gene therapy was ordered for the entire house after it was refined, and in this it was moderately successful.
Koiri Karinne ordered the program not to be restarted. Now Jason could try to override that command but that leaves it up to Cybi to make a choice in who is to be obeyed. I believe she would not try to remove the security protocols on the information. The other thing to remember is that the Selective breeding is not the program, the program was the recombinent DNA and gene therapy which led to the birth of the first Generation Sora. After the second civil war the Karinnes instituted a selective breeding campaign that was not a secret from the Imperium. We need to remember that the mark of a Generation is that they be able to communion with a CBIM and be able to recognize a Kimdori which comes from their Kimdori DNA.
Over the years after the Second Civil War, the Karinnes changed. They became withdrawn from the Imperium, indifferent to it, even scornful. The entire house began a controversial selective breeding program within the house to increase its power in telepathy, a program that both worked and brought about laws against it. The program worked. The Karinnes became known as the most powerful telepaths in the Imperium, hand over fist. It also caused Empress Ziora Shevalle to enact the Natural Progression edict, a ban on genetic engineering experiments that other houses began to consider after seeing the success of the Karinne breeding program.
To restart the program would be to pursue a recombinent of Kimdori DNA and another species, the breeding program was a matter of widening the genepool and allowed the talent of the individual's to get stronger.

Now onto Cybi's moving of the ring:
. The projected holographic image of Cybi was curled around him, holding his face between phantom hands and pressing her forehead against his own.
“Stand, please,” Cybi asked, which Aura obeyed. “I am pleased beyond measure to see you, Aura Karinne. To know that there were more Karinnes hidden in the galaxy brings me hope that soon the house will be complete once more.” She ghosted up to her and put her golden holographic hands on each side of Aura Karinne’s face.
Now this isn't spelled out put I took from those two instances that Cybi is employing force fields, which is a standby for most AI holographic bodies in SciFi. That would explain how she "touched" both Jason and Aura and moved the ring. Force fields are a tech that is prevelant throughout the Imperium so the Karinnes having them over a thousand years ago wouldn't be impossible. The Kimdori and Faey DNA used in the Biogenic computer program gives the telepathy part as stated by Cybi in Subjugation but she never mentions TK but there is many instances were the boosting of Generation's talent is mentioned. That is why I fall in favor of force fields for Cybi instead of TK.

You know by the time Fel gets done with Spirti Walker we will have given him enough ideas here to write another Jason story. :wink:
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Re: Predictions?

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A few small points.

1. Knowing about the gene therapy and the Kimdori involvement in the program is not the same knowing where the improvements came from. An expert in cosmology does not necessarily know everything (or even very much) about crop strains for farming. Also at the time of the exile the Generations are on their 95th iteration. How much time has passed? The Exile nobles may have been genetic lines deemed unsuitable for the program hundreds of years prior to their capture. Removed from the secret by 95 generations. The program might have been much accelerated but time has passed since the first experiments.

2. We are essentially in full agreement about the re-starting of the Generations program. I was merely pointing out that the results were not being abandoned. The breeding is a small part of many constituent parts. Koire forbids then pleads that those orders are followed - a double condemnation for the project. Using emotion, reason and restrictive security protocols to state her case.

My previous point was that if Cybi only follows instructions then she is either a slave or not really “alive”.

3. As I hinted above your explanation for the ring movement fits too. What carries it for me is Jason’s amazement that it isn’t a trick with wires followed by his test on that very thing soon after at the palace. It seems like a hint to me towards telekinesis.

Cybi doesn’t appear to be a powerful telepath by herself, only in combination with a Generation. I see the boosting as a symbiotic effect not just becoming and taking control of the machine. With one part not near as powerful without the other. She communicates through the Gestalt at long distance. Relays are also used to carry the attack to the Urumi ships.
boballab wrote:You know by the time Fel gets done with Spirti Walker we will have given him enough ideas here to write another Jason story. :wink:
Oh I'm sure that Fel has enough ideas to show us both up. He's already hinted at couple of his story ideas with the Exiles return and the arranged marriage. We can't even really guess at what the Consortium will bring to the party. I'm enjoying Spirit Walker too much to complain about any delays to Subjugation parts 3, 4 & 5 :mrgreen:
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Re: Predictions?

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Oh I agree that the Non-Generation Nobles didn't know about the Kimdori DNA after the initial start of the program. That would have been restricted to the scientists involved in the project.
What I see is that the Non-Generation nobles that were captured by the Consortium knew that something was done to the DNA to make the Generations different and that is what the Consortium is after. Those Nobles would give the Consortium enough background info (if they had implanted MC devices) to know that to get the secrets from any CBIM they would need a Generation.
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Re: Predictions?

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expedient wrote:A few small points.

1. Knowing about the gene therapy and the Kimdori involvement in the program is not the same knowing where the improvements came from. An expert in cosmology does not necessarily know everything (or even very much) about crop strains for farming. Also at the time of the exile the Generations are on their 95th iteration. How much time has passed? The Exile nobles may have been genetic lines deemed unsuitable for the program hundreds of years prior to their capture. Removed from the secret by 95 generations. The program might have been much accelerated but time has passed since the first experiments.

2. We are essentially in full agreement about the re-starting of the Generations program. I was merely pointing out that the results were not being abandoned. The breeding is a small part of many constituent parts. Koire forbids then pleads that those orders are followed - a double condemnation for the project. Using emotion, reason and restrictive security protocols to state her case.

My previous point was that if Cybi only follows instructions then she is either a slave or not really “alive”.

3. As I hinted above your explanation for the ring movement fits too. What carries it for me is Jason’s amazement that it isn’t a trick with wires followed by his test on that very thing soon after at the palace. It seems like a hint to me towards telekinesis.

Cybi doesn’t appear to be a powerful telepath by herself, only in combination with a Generation. I see the boosting as a symbiotic effect not just becoming and taking control of the machine. With one part not near as powerful without the other. She communicates through the Gestalt at long distance. Relays are also used to carry the attack to the Urumi ships.
boballab wrote:You know by the time Fel gets done with Spirti Walker we will have given him enough ideas here to write another Jason story. :wink:
Oh I'm sure that Fel has enough ideas to show us both up. He's already hinted at couple of his story ideas with the Exiles return and the arranged marriage. We can't even really guess at what the Consortium will bring to the party. I'm enjoying Spirit Walker too much to complain about any delays to Subjugation parts 3, 4 & 5 :mrgreen:
parts 6, 7, 8, 9, and 10 at the very least.
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Re: Predictions?

Post by dellstart »

To quote Fel

"....After I finish that, I will be starting Unification. I'm not sure how many chapters that will run, probably 4-6, but it will be focused mainly on the Karinnes bringing the exiles back into the fold, and the threat of the Consortium not just to the Imperium, but to every civilization in their quadrant of the galaxy. The Alliance and other governments know that the Consortium are a threat to THEM in addition to the Faey, and the Academy on Terra suddenly becomes more important than just about anyone ever dreamed it would. There is one short story for sure planned for after Unification, which will be named Tribulation.

Those of you who know big, fancy words might get a feeling for where that short story is going to go."



So folks, any comments?
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Re: Predictions?

Post by boballab »

Tribulation:
Noun
1. grievous trouble; severe trial or suffering.
2. an instance of this; an affliction, trouble, etc.

Synonuyms
1. affliction, hardship, distress, adversity.

Looks bad for Jason
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Re: Predictions?

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boballab wrote:Tribulation:
Noun
1. grievous trouble; severe trial or suffering.
2. an instance of this; an affliction, trouble, etc.

Synonuyms
1. affliction, hardship, distress, adversity.

Looks bad for Jason
I think that looks slightly better than the first think I clicked on to look up the word:
Wikipedia wrote:The Tribulation (or "Great Tribulation") is an event referred to in the New Testament of the Bible at Matthew 24:21 ("For then shall be great tribulation..." - King James Version) and other passages. In the futurist view of Christian eschatology, the Tribulation is a relatively short period of time where people who follow God will experience worldwide persecution and be purified and strengthened by it.
It looks bad, very bad. I don't like the look of that term 'purified' :? !

I'm going to take a wild guess and say it has something to do with the Consortium perhaps attacking or trying to purifying the Kairane's, again.
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Re: Predictions?

Post by boballab »

Hmm. Well think of this. If Unification is the bringing home of the exiled Karinnes some of them might not be to happy about a Human/Faey Hybrid running the House. Could the purification be that some of descendents of the non generation nobles on Exile might want to get rid of Jason's family? or maybe get rid of the Generations themselves? Remember the Karinnes from 1,000 years ago were elitists and scornful of everyone that wasn't a Karinne. We don't know what type of attitude their descendents now have after being stuck on that planet. They could be extremely xenophobic, especially after some of their ancestors were kidnapped by the consortium.
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